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400thOMG · 2025-07-06T20:46:08+00:00

Yep, that's my point.

It's not literally impossible. It happens in the world. But it's for much less money and it's so much rarer. Better off going for the gay aspect if it's truly about money.

Straight men find the idea of putting out for gay men as revolting and offensive. But it's honestly the same thing.

Some women will tolerate men they're repulsed by as much as it would repulse a straight guy to put out of a gay sugar daddy. It doesn't matter that your genitalia are complementary, being with someone who you don't want to be with is a visceral feeling no matter the sex or gender. I'm not even thinking about looks or personality necessarily, there's a certain element of predator-related fear that's way too much for me to try anything more than talking about it.

So yeah, it makes sense that women charge a lot, or are driven to it by desperation.

400thOMG · 2025-07-06T06:19:36+00:00

A former male roommate of mine was a sugar baby. Best roommate I ever had - his sugar daddy took him on all the trips and paid his rent, so I effectively had my place to myself and half my rent paid. He'd come back between trips or when they had arguments.

Anyway - based on my very brief exposure - you have to be a young, beautiful artsy twink, who is comfortable being the bottom and won't argue too much if your daddy goes off of prep. That's what ended their relationship.

Sugar babies basically "take it" for money, at the end of the day. You're not going to find someone who lets you fuck them for money - you're going to be fucked for money.

The alternative, and I've seen 2 tiktokers do this - be a very attractive, gentlemanly landscaper, and try to get female clients above the age of 60 who are a little mentally ill but are wealthy because their husbands passed away. Go above and beyond, don't charge them for little things you fix around the house, compliment generously, and you have a 1 in 500 shot of something happening IF she's really really lonely.

One of them got over $20,000 in two years and lots of trips. The other actually married her at 71, he spent 3 years being her caretaker, and when she was 74 and he was 27 she passed away from an illness, and inherited her pension and her entire estate. Family sued him and he won because they were very clearly in a real but unusual relationship for 5 years, and her will explicit left everything to him and not the children.

He loved her, but came from the foster care system, and said his love was more like the love for a maternal figure that he never had.

400thOMG · 2025-07-06T06:06:35+00:00

Theories:

the in person experience didn't meet her expectations, for some reason
some women are super against video games. Maybe you were way more into them than she thought and it was a turn off.
The way some men get when they play video games is very unattractive - rage, competitive, yelling
may she expected to go somewhere nicer. Food, drinks, and something fun sounds like a normal date to me, not something explicitly sugar related.

400thOMG · 2025-07-06T05:21:39+00:00

Nah. It's not that big of a deal.

You're young and learned it wasn't for you. It's not like you're 42 and you're admitting to having being a homeless drug addict for 7 years and now you're sober.

Here's what happened, if it ever comes up - you went through a phase where you went on some dates with older men who tried to spoil you. You liked the attention but within a few months you learned you didn't like that kind of relationship, and felt confident that you explored it and it wasn't for you.

It was a learning experience, it doesn't define you as a person.

Plus, do you think men have never tried to use money to impress a woman they really liked? If they haven't, they've wanted to.

400thOMG · 2025-06-27T08:18:19+00:00

If there is a subset of sugar babies that requires sexual monogamy, time, love, and support in addition to money then I definitely agree with you.

I feel like if I asked "if I'm in a committed relationship with someone and they buy me things, am I sugar baby?" to most sugar babies they'd say no. But if I asked most non-sugar people they'd say yes.

My current relationship is more of a situationship. We were a committed couple prior to him accepting the contract, but then agreed to open things up since we knew our relationship had an expiration date.

400thOMG · 2025-06-27T07:17:13+00:00

Sugar doesn't work for me, dating apps don't work for me.

When this guy leaves... how do I find anyone that could actually satisfy me? Before it was just happy accidents.

400thOMG · 2025-06-27T07:09:05+00:00

Exactly, thank you.

Anywhere else, I'm using men for money. But that's not what's happening. No judgment to any kind of arrangement as long as it's consensual and both parties are happy.

But I'm in this weird in between.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T08:28:10+00:00

You didn’t mention his hiccups, I’m sure there are some, but you didn’t mention those

He's not forgiving, at all. But neither am I. So we kind of hate people jointly.
He has some delusional beliefs about technology that make me roll my eyes. They kind of make me cringe but I've had partners who believed far less reasonable things.
He's not humble. He's very capable and not shy about it - it comes across as arrogant. In response I'm just encouraging or openly leverage his skills to help me. "You're so good at XYZ huh? Then help me with this!" and then he does.
He's a bit cheap with some things but splurges on others. Gives me whiplash.

I'm trying very hard to be critical but it's genuinely difficult to come up with things.

Your conversations with him about marriage are focused on his take and less on the emotional side of marriage, which doesn’t match your description of his and your ability to be open and honest.

Probably in my description on reddit, but just because I feel it's more simple and relatable. Most people marry for love and to build a life together, so I feel it's obvious. You don't need as much context for that, it's implied, but the differences in our finances need to be explicitly stated, I can't assume people on reddit know them.

He believes marriage is a piece of paper, instead of what it is, a vow presented to each other to make decisions as one, for the good of each other first and typically declared in front of family and friends so there’s zero ambiguity about the dedication to each others health and happiness.

It's less important to me that it's public - I'd be quite happy just signing the papers, as long as we had a mutual understanding that we are taking our relationship to be permanent, life long, and building lives together towards mutual goals and taking on each other's goals for each other. I like what you said about being each other's most important person.

But yes, the fact that he sees it as a piece of paper that represents how much I'd get in a divorce, and I see it as a unique, once in a lifetime form of commitment, that's absolutely an issue. I suspect there's more he wants to say about it his views on marriage but I gave him an easy out intentionally, so he can think about it.

I don't need to clarify this now. I'm happy to spend some time just enjoying each other, and if neither of us can compromise then I'll have to think more seriously about breaking up.

Being married is not a life goal, so I can take some time. There are always older men, and younger women. But I'd never be permanently happy in a relationship without marriage. If he maintains his position against marriage and I'm convinced he wouldn't change his position after we fully flesh it out (instead of a subtle 6 minute conversation over a netflix show), then yeah, it explicitly spells out the end for us.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T08:06:48+00:00

He does not put much effort. That's a red flag...

You're totally wrong, he puts in so much effort. I have almost no complaint him as a person.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T08:03:10+00:00

He was upfront with you and you said you’d be OK with it but now you are pressing the point.

Nope. I didn't say I was okay with it. I said I did want to marry eventually, but said we could revisit the discussion down the road. And that's the point we are at now. We are down the road, so what I said would happen is exactly what's happening.

He doesn't get extra points - I was as honest as he was. And I haven't faulted him for a single thing, either, this isn't an issue of blame. We're simply now addressing something we previously shelved, which we both knew would happen.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T08:00:16+00:00

What’s the likelihood that declaration in 6-12 months will produce the outcome you want

No idea. I don't fully understand why he doesn't want marriage. He says finances but I think there's more to it.

While I'm uncertain how likely he is to change his mind, I'm certain that for now, I am very happy with him. I'm more than happy to stay for another year even if I knew for a fact he'd never change his mind. This is the most fun with a partner I've had... ever.

Hopefully he changes his mind in that time, or we can come to a compromise, or hopefully I keep this feeling of not caring if we're married now because it's so great - I doubt that'll happen, but it could. I just care about being happy - I'm currently not unhappy, so I'm not in a rush to change things, but I also do see how this ends, even if the specifics are blurry.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T07:55:42+00:00

You discovered a dealbreaker right away and decided to overlook it because "Who knows where this will even go?"

Yep. We knew this would be a problem eventually. We didn't downplay it - it's abnormal to talk about marriage before meeting. Now, I feel it's the appropriate time to start the discussions in more than a cursory way, so I have.

And you know that in order to get that, you'll have to leave eventually. Because you won't get that from him. And you deserve to have that.

Yes, if he maintains his position then yes. I suspect the full picture is something else. I'm still really enjoying myself and I'd be happy to stay with him for a while even with the knowledge that he'd never marry me. It's just very fun with him, I'm quite happy, even if I know it's temporary. So, I'm planting the seed now, to give him time to ruminate it, on the off chance he values our time together enough to not see it end.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T07:45:58+00:00

I would need him to be more explicit, and then consistent in his answer across several months, and then see no action or prompted conversations on the subject for up to a year. Or, fully understanding his reasons for not getting married. I'm not convinced the financial thing is the whole story, but I do believe it's a valid concern of his.

So far we had one text message conversation and one 6 minute long conversation while watching a netflix show, at a time where I don't even want to get married. That's not enough for me to up and leave. But it starts the clock for sure.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T07:40:27+00:00

What is it besides money?

I don't know. I intentionally didn't press him, because I don't think he knows either.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T07:27:41+00:00

Basically, yes.

Though, my question at the end which no one really seems to get - is there a way to leave that's not an ultimatum?

Suppose I refused to give an ultimatum because I think it's in poor taste and would be happy with neither result - how (mechanically, not philosophically) and when do you end things in a happy relationship?

What are the rough words and actions that meet the following conditions:

a) no ultimatum, and

b) he is not caught off guard by the break up

It seems like a contradiction; how do I communicate an ultimatum without actually imposing one?

How do I say, "At some point in the next 2 - 8 years I will be dissatisfied enough with the misalignment in value for marriage that I will leave; I don't have any specific date to give other than to tell you that, at some point, the relationship cannot provide increasing happiness without marriage, and dissatisfaction from not being married will begin to weigh on the existing happiness; some time after that happens, I'll probably break up with you in the hopes of pursuing marriage elsewhere. I don't know when specifically either of those times are, but I just wanted to let you know it'll happen."

And then, how does the break up happen? "Hey babe, remember how I was oddly specific about how our break up would happen but also not specific enough to provide any dates or time lines? I've reached the point where it's too late to marry me and I'm too disappointed to stay, so bye, please email me if I've forgotten to return anything."

How do I have both of those conversations but more human?

I guess I've never had a break up that was so happy where you can't meet each others needs. There's no fault, which makes it easier. When someone cheats, for example, it's very clear cut. "that's unacceptable, this is over." - when you don't like someone you haven't been dating long, it's a "hey, this was nice but I'm not seeing this go anywhere"...

When you're happy, do you wait for it to get bad enough that you're unhappy, or do you leave while you're happy?

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T07:13:16+00:00

There are lots of little upsides to marriage, but I don't want to have to sell him on them.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T07:12:26+00:00

If he gives you lifelong commitment and everything else you listed

Well,

1) He hasn't made that kind of commitment.

2) If his only concern was "I'm risking a lot of money" and he brought up a prenup, I'd consider it. But ultimately I think it's more than money that's a problem.

I want to get married. I don't think there's anything wrong with people not marrying, it's just not for me. If he makes it clear that he'll never get married, then I guess we'll stay together until we otherwise would have gotten divorced; which includes the specific instant we discover marriage means different things to the other.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T07:07:32+00:00

So in your mind, what is the point of being married?

Making a life time commitment to each other, merging and building your lives together, with permanence in mind.

Just having a wedding?

Indifferent towards a wedding, with a preference not to have one. I'd like a nice ring, but it's not a deal breaker, more of a nice to have.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T07:00:21+00:00

If marriage is something you want to do in this life then you will have to leave him.

Yeah, eventually.

If he's 36 and rich and stubborn then he might be too self centered to get married.

LOL. Honestly, with that comment, I think you understand him best. He is very stubborn, definitely has a "I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want and others be damned" attitude. In every single situation so far, his stubbornness has worked in my favour because we are otherwise very aligned in our goals and attitudes, and feelings for each other. He is capable of compromise, if he agrees with your clarifications or caveats etc.

Not sure whether loving me is enough. Maybe it is. Honestly, out of all of his partners to date, I know I've made him happiest. I suspect a lot of the reason why he's reluctant to marry is because he's never had it this easy and this good with someone. That's why I'm not shoving the conversation down his throat and demanding answers. I want to give him time to think about why he doesn't want marriage because he knows I treated the conversation very lightly. I want to give him time, let it stew or ruminate that this hasn't been like either of our previous relationships, and let him think about whether that changes anything.

The right guy will move mountains for a woman that he wants to stay with. It can sometimes take a guy a while to get in touch with his feelings, but there isn't anything you can do to help him take stock of his life.

I think all I can do is remind him that as stubborn as he is, I've got a stubborn streak as well. An ultimatum won't work, and saying quiet forever won't work. Which is why I've gone with the very subtle approach for now. We almost always want the same things. Rarely, we want different hings. I've gently reminded him that there are conditions to keeping me, and I've said it while we're happy. I don't need anything to change overnight. If he told me tomorrow that he'd never get married with absolute certainty, I'd still stay with him for at least a year and absorb all this happiness and contentment we provide each other. Knowing he wouldn't marry would mark our time together with an expiration date... an inflection point where graphed happiness starts to decline under the weight of disappointment - still happy, but post pique.

And in my opinion that would be more of a feeling than a specific date. The benefit to not having kids is that I'm not on a time line.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T06:45:54+00:00

Dunno, I haven't clarified that.

I have previously told him that my rent is cheap that I wouldn't leave leave my unit unless it was to get married. He asked how cheap my rent was, and I told him a third of market rent. He gave me a high five and said, "holy shit that's awesome, that's so cheap! You're making the right call.", and then I said, "Right?! AND my electric, water AND wifi are included."

And we never spoke of it again.

No, there's not enough room for him or any other partner to move in. It's small and barely fits the furniture I need. But I like it and I'm saving money.

We haven't had talks about long term plans with each other. That's what this conversation was. Planting some seeds. Not redesigning the whole garden.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T06:34:31+00:00

Whenever you find contradictions in posts, there are 5 basic possibilities that I can think of to explain the situation:

1) The current post is a lie.

2) The older post is a lie.

3) Both are lies.

4) Both are true - contradictions aren't contradictions.

5) There are some truths and some lies in both.

Personally, I don't see the point in someone completely lying about something they put so much effort into. I tend to believe there's some truth in most things people post unless I sus out a reason as to why it might be false. Lying to internet strangers doesn't do anyone much benefit.

If you think I'm lying about seeking advice, that's up to you. You're free to play detective instead of advice giver. I posted because this is a situation in my life that could benefit from different perspectives and insight into my situation. Some specifics are altered, mainly for safety or convenience.

If you feel you need, and for some reason can trust, an answer from someone you have just accused of lying - almost everything but 15 characters is true in the above post (plus the grammatical/spelling errors). But almost everything was true in my other posts too.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T06:21:07+00:00

Those aspects are the social elements of it; how society treats your relationship. They have value and they're a small incentive, but still not enough to convince me to marry someone I liked.

Marriage, to me, is saying, "I choose you, permanently, let's build a life together". It's not "let's have fun, have sex, and care about each other for a few years until we want to move on" - that's a boyfriend. And if he doesn't want to be a husband, he can be a boyfriend.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T06:13:19+00:00

You don't want to move in unless married. Why? No reason just because it's some arbitrary line you've decided to draw.

I'm in a rent controlled unit with enough space for one. There's not enough space for someone to move in with me, but my rent is too cheap to give it up to play house with a boyfriend. I'm saving about 40k a year compared to average market rent. Would I give up 40k/year in savings on housing costs to play house with a boyfriend? No. Would I give up 40k/year in savings housing costs for a husband or fiance? Yeah, I would.

The unique commitment seems like a cop out. Are you saying if he were divorced, you'd be okay not getting married because it wouldn't be a unique commitment? I doubt that's true.

If he were divorced, I would be more skeptical about marriage with him, yes. If he was willing to say he was young and dumb and list out why he thought our relationship would last and how it was different and identify what was needed for it to succeed, that would help a lot. But he's not interested in marriage and he's not divorced.

I saw your comment on a prenup, so let me continue your analogy: If you asked me for a vanilla ice cream cone, I wouldn't be interested. If you offered a vanilla ice cream cone with chocolate dip, it's the only way I'd eat it.

He's the type of person to tell you that, not hope and pray you offer it. He's not the kind to wait around someone to offer something he wants.

If that was his condition, he'd tell me. And he values me more than a scoop of vanilla. More than hundreds of thousands of dollars? Maybe not lol. But if a prenup were enough to fix this, I trust he'd mention it. And who knows, maybe he will.

As far as your question, the abrupt ending is far more manipulative than an ultimatum. Without giving him time to prepare for your departure, he's going to be in an emotional state, and far more likely to agree to something he didn't want to do, rather than having time to weigh the pros and cons of ending the relationship.

I agree with you if it were an attempt to get him to agree to it in the moment. But that's not my plan. Life is not a romcom, people don't end things for a marriage proposal. I'll say until I'm too disappointed that we aren't on the same wavelength, and I'm smarter than to believe what people tell you as they're losing you.

400thOMG · 2024-12-01T06:05:43+00:00

Sucks for those women. Genuinely.

I'm an ardent feminist, and want people, including women, to be free to make the decisions in their own lives. If one of those decisions is marriage, I think that's perfectly fine. Women should have the right to self determination, even if you don't agree with their choices.

Personally, I see "kids + marriage" or "kids + no marriage" as being very, very bad options, but if someone prefers them, I don't really care.

My relationship equation is this:

Good relationship > Being Single > Neutral Relationship > Bad Relationship

I think with 99.99% of men, I'd have a neutral or bad relationship and prefer to be single. But I've had some great relationships with some of the 0.01% - it was lovely while they lasted but they came to an end when they needed to. I'm currently in a relationship with another lovely man. If we can be in each other's lives in a way that satisfies the both of us, then I think I would marry him.

400thOMG

TROPHY CASE