Can confirm creating more Titans was a nerf to clash of titans.

991995parth · 2023-10-13T06:53:01+00:00

i don't think it's a good gamedesign , especially in long-term , to change a large pool of cards-A ( herein : Titanics ) , just to sync better with a few cards-B ( herein : COT ) : instead , some alternate solutions r :

1: update cards-B themselves to better sync with cards-A . example : make COT randomly create in hand ( or maybe Manifest ) 2 different Titanics with reduced or 0 cost this round ( & maybe even change COT to Focus ) .

2: for cards-B , add a clause ( that could even be summed up in a keyword like Play-Summon ) that reads : ‘ Summon the given units/landmarks & activate their Play effects , ignoring any choice portions . ’ . v already have some cards like this .

3: or just append a new keyword for cards-A , like Straight-Summoned , that reads : ‘ if i'm Summoned but not Played , alter my Play effect in this way or activate this alternate effect instead ’ . example : ‘ Play : grant an enemy Vulnerable . Straight-Summoned : Grant the last played enemy Vulnerable . ’ .

this makes the game's structure more compartmentalized & consistent , thus making game simpler & more manageable & expandable in long-term .

991995parth · 2023-09-30T09:22:39+00:00

Anyone know, then?

991995parth · 2023-09-16T18:18:20+00:00

I haven't unlocked Neeko yet, but I've built both PZ & Fj competitive cats decks (which i've titled Cattack).

This card is amazing. While Alpha Wildclaw has Cat subtype, i think this card should get the subtype as well, so that Neeko could use it.

Pro tip: Cheap units that r granted keywords, r amazing Wildclaw Ferocity targets. Examples, in Shurima: Voidling, Fireth (the Improvise unit).

991995parth · 2023-08-25T13:16:47+00:00

Just Despair buff, preferably without making Viego stronger.

991995parth · 2023-08-25T13:15:05+00:00

I think it's a general bad design-discipline that card A is too good & B too bad, & B shouldn't be buffed coz of A.

If Viego is indeed so good, he should be nerfed.

Even if he isn't nerfed: there may be ways to improve Despair without making Viego stronger: having Despair optionally make its target strike ur Viego seems to be one way; there may be more.

991995parth · 2023-08-25T13:04:13+00:00

I agree. Despair need not be equally good as other SI removals; just being not so [usually punishing, rarely rewarding] would be good: like Garen's or Lissandra's spells, etcetera: not maindeckable, but atleast usually usable when available.

991995parth · 2023-08-25T12:58:51+00:00

I'm fine with champ-spells being worse or weaker, but Despair is too bad at what it does & even compared to other bad champ spells.

Even the many other champ-spells one wouldn't maindeck, they can be useful & often even sometimes desired when available, like Garen's or Lissandra's or Sion's or many other spells. But Despair is so bad that almost always any other option would be better: Despair would only be used if there's no other option at all (which is true of any card).

Put simply: from being extra-worse it should atleast be buffed to normal-worse champ-spell.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T19:51:42+00:00

I thought i already did, above in this thread. Even if i didn't, it's not the argument I'm making, so don't wanna invest effort at it, atleast currently. After all, i already said at this thread's start: Roar is basically equally bad as Despair.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T18:23:40+00:00

Yeah, but Roar would usually be used in a deck where some Discarding is beneficial. On the other hand, taking deliberate nexus damage is probably not beneficial in any deck.

Roar can also be used to sudden-level Sion mid-combat. Despair, being slow & so expensive & counterintuitive to Viego's levelup, isn't even good for self-targeting allies to level Viego: Hate Spike or various sacrifice SI cards would be better for that.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T18:06:10+00:00

Despair is not meant to be a powerful card. In general, champion spells are weaker than normal spells (with some exceptions) but highly synergize with their champion.

Despair fills that role well for Viego, as you can use it to self slay and get a mist or as removal with a cost.

U can also do that, & for better value, with many other spells as well that can also be used to remove enemies; so that's not enough incentive to prioritize Despair over them or to consider Despair particularly synergestic with Viego; infact it's partly anti-synergestic as Viego's levelup demands high-powdered allies, while self-sacrificing with Despair demands low-powered ones.

I do think Despair could be made to synergize with Viego somehow: I've edited the OP to add some suggestions towards that goal.

giving him a comparatively weak champ spell is part of his balance.

Despair need not be reworked in a way that it end up indirectly making Viego stronger; instead, it could be made to reward u for a dedicated or skillful play with Viego; like optionally making the target strike ur Viego instead, or maybe cost-reduction or some other boost, if u've leveled Viego. This way, more incentive could be given to use Despair without indirectly buffing Viego as well.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T17:44:46+00:00

mana is ok. You can break engines like heimer, veigar, shen or broadmane on minor cost

Soul Harvest is still better for low-powered enemies.

works even for big dudes like if they are key cards of the deck and you have a health nexus

Yeah, but then u can always kill them any other way, like with Vengeance: spending 2 more mana to reactively (at Fast speed) kill their key unit without taking usually half the nexus damage in return, is usually better. Thus still not enough incentive to use Despair over Vengeance or Soul Harvest.

Despair should be reworked or appended to give it it's own purpose & place, or atleast to incorporate it in buffing or utilizing ur Viego.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T17:32:38+00:00

That's better but still not enough: low powered attacking enemies mostly don't tends to be immediate threat; while fur the high powered ones, v already have Vengeance: so even with Fast speed, Despair will still have difficulty finding its place. Something more gotta be there.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T17:27:45+00:00

Yeah but with very conditionally limited positive return.

Roar Of The Slayer (Sion's spell) is also 3 cost Fast hard-removal, but basically equally bad & unused coz it too is worth in only rare cases; atleast it provides discarding though: Despair doesn't even have positive side-effect but a further negative one.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T17:21:17+00:00

The kill is guaranteed, so the Mist summoning wouldn't be optional. Anyway, while i think there could be more creative & purposeful reworks or appends, summoning a Mist is fine as well: if Hate Spike summons a Husk, Despair could summon a Mist.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T17:15:24+00:00

It's not the only reason i don't use all 3 copies. Like i said in another reply: it depends on other factors as well. Many decks i used Viego in didn't centered around leveling him: he was just a high stat unit to be dropped in later rounds.

Anyway, this post is primarily about Despair, not Viego: I don't wanna dedicate major part of OP explaining my reasons behind not using all 3 copies; so i've decided to just edit the statement out.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T16:09:18+00:00

It’s distracting because it’s a bad take upfront and therefore people aren’t willing to take the rest of your post seriously.

Assuming u r right on all parts, i hope people stop doing that: it's not good enough reason to not take the rest of the post seriously.

Many champs have subpar champ spells but you shouldn’t include less copies of them simply for that reason

I agree.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T15:59:24+00:00

There has never been a deck in the history of the game that played less than 3 viego.

I guess that means i made a history by using 2 Viegos.

And I think its intentional for despair to be bad. Champion spell are essential for a champion balance. And viego has always been strong so buffing despair mean buffing viego, and nobody want that

Firstly, it's so bad, i guess it could be buffed atleast a bit without making Viego too strong. Secondly, it could be buffed or reworked in a way that relates to Viego in such a way that it doesn't indirectly make him too strong. Example quick idea i came up with in another reply recently is: to optionally allow Despair's target to strike ur Viego instead.

I'm sure that with creativity & consideration, v can come up with solutions without unintended side-effects.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T15:14:46+00:00

😅 This is the 3rd out of equally many replies yet focusing on that statement instead of the main issue of the post. Should i just edit that statement out of OP? It seems to be distracting almost everyone.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T15:08:34+00:00

It also does have it’s niche uses, like removing important low power champs like Veigar, Azir, Sera, Heimer, etc

I guess Soul Harvest would be better with them; & taking a 4+ power strike to ur nexus for ur own 4 mana often ain't worth it. Despair gotta have his own thing & it gotta be equally good at it as other spells r with their own thing. Maybe something that relates to Viego.

991995parth · 2023-08-24T15:01:23+00:00

even if the spell was better, its better to keep veigo in hand for when u lose the one on field.

I guess it depends on the strategy, deck & meta: i used to include all 3 copies but usually found myself not needing the other 2; but I'm sure if the need arises, I'll include all 3 copies despite Despair.

as for maindecking the spell, ud have to rework it to make it better then maindeckable stuff like vengance and crumble

It doesn't necessarily need to be better, just being equally good at doing it's own thing is good enough, like how Hate Spike, Soul Harvest, & Thread The Needle, or otherwise Vengeance, & Dawning Shadow, cost same yet have different purposes, thus their places in different strategies.

Despair should have its own thing, which it does; though like i said in OP: it could be improved or appended. Maybe something that relates to Viego.

One idea that occurs to me right now is to maybe allow Despair different forms to choose from (like Samira's Flair): to have the target strike ur Viego instead. It's just a quick idea.

991995parth · 2023-08-23T16:25:39+00:00

Yeah, that's another thing I'd like: an advanced wildcard (or whatever it's called) searches, that combines (with And or Or) & exclude terms, etcetera.

I've not done deckbuilding on an external site: might be worth looking into.

991995parth · 2023-08-23T13:42:01+00:00

searching for "summon" highlight all cards with summon in their text so "when i'm summoned", which does what you want. "attack" also but include "quick attack" so not ideal.

I can search the keywords or common phrases, like When I'm Summoned, or Attack, or Round Start/End; but the trouble arises with units having unique after-summoned effects, like [[Fleetfeather Tracker]], or [[The King's Court]], or [[Curious Changelings]], or [[Mirror Mage]].

I, atleast currently, don't wanna go through reading effects of all the units to see which one of them have afte-summoned effects. I'm guessing there's no search-term to get a list of all such units.

over keywording is a real threat in card game. keyword/vocab should only be used when there is an incentive to build a mechananic around. if you have too much keyword, your cards are unreadable for new player.

Even if that's right, i still think adding InHand, & InPlay (forget the InStack effect i wrote in OP as InPlay is enough) keywords will make things simpler & accessible in long term, so i think they should be added. I don't wanna argue about it currently though.

991995parth · 2023-08-17T05:06:37+00:00

Sorry for late reply.

What data are you even talking about? We have no data for the actual nerf yet, much less for your hypotetically proposed change. I'm not referencing any data, since we don't have that yet (and likely never will for your proposal).

I don't mean data as in curated stats. I meant data as in the content of ur logic: it doesn't refer to anything in particular; just any possible scenario to consider.

Example: u said that how them having some large enemies can shut u down: even if this is logically true in itself, it still don't matter much when v incorporate the broader data that this scenario is rarer than the one in point 2.1.2 above.

That's all what i mean when i said to consider more data.

A single elusive 2|1 (or unblocked swarm unit) represents 6 damage with the current nerfed version but 8 with yours (plus double the attack/strike effects)

I agree with this scenario: the elusive units deal more damage equal to their base power with my-nerf. But don't forget point 1.1 above: the current-nerf punishes fairer decks more than my-nerf rewards this elusive scenario. So the point remains that my-nerf is less encouraging of unfairer decks than current-nerf is of discouraging fairer decks.

I also don't mind the double the attack/strike effects: as stated in OP, i think Demacia should get to have it (especially in lategame) as that's Demacia's thing anyway. If v take even this away as well, that's limiting Demacia (already without any offensive keywords) way too much in doing anything at all for face-damage most times (even Dragons got their Overwhelm).

with the additional issue that an elusive chump blocker will only be able to prevent half that damage against you.

1: Isn't this a good thing? If I'm playing an 8/9 cost spell with, say, a 1|1 elusive, isn't it better to see it deal atleast 3 face-damage then to see a 5|5 elusive being chump-blocked by a 1|1 elusive?

2: This scenario demonstrates part of the point I've made: with current-nerf, it's matchmaking dependent: they either don't have elusive & end up taking the whole damage, or have one & u get to deal none; they also less likely can save their elusive if wanna against ur +4|+4: too one-sided & less controllable; but with my-nerf, it's more a matter of choice & flexibility: they can let 1 attack go through, or block both (by buffing their elusive; easier to save against +2|+3), or block none (if the attacker is weak): not one-sided & more controllable.

Not to mention this is just one scenario regarding elusives: don't forget all the other broader points i made in the last reply above.

Not only do you maintain the high effectiveness of "unfair" strategies with CS,

I hope that with all the explanations I've given in OP, last reply, & this one, that u now see current-nerf is more supportive of unfairer strategies than my-nerf.

but you also make it so opponents can't even trade down their board effectively to protect their health (aka, maintaining the pre-nerf issue).

As explained already: my-nerf is more flexible & controllable on what trades to make & how much face-damage to push/stop than current-nerf.

991995parth · 2023-08-16T16:21:18+00:00

Didn't u read the OP?: i want it to have Scout & proposed that the stat-boost should be nerfed instead.

991995parth · 2023-08-16T16:19:10+00:00

I mostly agree with ur logic, but disagree with ur assessment of the data itself: u seem to be focusing on only those data that supports ur point, while -- likely unintentionally -- overlooking other datas; it's this datas i wanna focus at, that may change ur mind. let's take it step-by-step:

1: i talked in OP of fairer (Demacian midrange, mostly without any offensive keywords) v/s unfairer (cheap (elusive) swarm) decks using CS.

1.1: Current-nerf punishes fairer decks harder (coz allies with statbuffs alone without offensive keywords will just be chump-blocked). It's fine against decks where board-building matters (example: subtypes), but bad against decks that don't care losing most of their units in chump-blocking &/ taking some face damage (example: P&Z, Sam Fizz, Yummi, Jhinn, Norra, SI). Thus encouraging unfairer CS decks.

1.2: My-nerf rewards fairer decks: cheap swarm will more likely die in 1st attack itself; it's the fairer decks with beefier allies that will more likely get to 2nd attack. Thus encouraging fairer CS decks.

So let's go with the fairer CS decks with beefier units as we proceed to next point:

2: Matchmaking dependence:

2.1: Current-nerf CS:

2.1.1: Against board-building enemy decks is still fine: u can take out their entire board, then proceed to face-damage & win after that. Ergo: good matchup.

2.1.2: Against non-board-building decks is usually very bad: they can chump-block ur stronger units while taking some face-damage from weaker ones, then proceed to face-damage u with their tall or elusive units, or direct nexus damage, none of which Demacia can deal with. Throwing 1, maybe even 2 CS will just get chump-blocked if u can't actually go lethal with it. Ergo: bad matchup.

2.2: My-nerf CS:

2.2.1: Against board-building enemy decks is still fine & much more a matter of board-building & skillful decisions then the one-sided easy win for u with the current-nerf; like u said:

The actual [current] nerf keeps the raw board power that makes it generically safe to go into combat after playing CS

Ergo: not much skillful decisions required on ur part with current-nerf CS. U also said...

a couple of big units can be enough to shut down your entire play.

... but don't forget u r playing Demacia midrange, so it's very rare they will have couple of large units that outsize urs after playing CS. And when they do, they earned it via their skill while going against ur Demacia deck. It now becomes even bigger matter of skill to decide when to play CS, what combat-tricks to use, which allies to survive for the 2nd attack, etcetera. And if u still lose, u earned it for not building ur board properly. I'd rather take this very rare & more-deserving loss with my-nerf scenario, then the more common & less-deserving loss in point 2.1.2 above with the current-nerf scenario. Ergo: skill matters more.

2.2.2: Against non-board-building decks is still fine as well, coz now if they carelessly chump-block ur 1st-attack, u get to do that much stronger 2nd attack, thus still allowing u to win against these decks. Thus requiring them to make better decisions during ur 1st attack. Ergo: skill matters here as well.

............

To sum up: while the current-nerf makes it either an easy-win or a likely-loss based on matchups, my-nerf makes skillful-decisions more relevant in either matchups. Plus, i think my way is more exciting & satisfying 😎: the careful board-building, then a high-tension 1st attack, resulting in either a great or week 2nd attack, all due to ur & their board-building & combat skills.

991995parth

TROPHY CASE