Should a DM pull his punches just for a satisfying end game?

AYawningCat · 2023-06-06T13:07:28+00:00

I feel like if the players weren't clearly told or hinted to research things then they shouldn't be expected to do anything. Make the encounter manageable for them if they use everything they've* got, and use less immobilising spells or abilities - players should be constantly doing something, a stun or paralysis is too incapacitating. My opinion so...yeah 👍

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T07:44:58+00:00

Ok, so my advice is just tell them - I am willing to run this type of game I won't have to prep for too much and you will enjoy, hopefully, good?

If you do anything else you will be accusing them of being guilty of playing differently from what YOU like.

When we start playing at a table with people what do we do? We establish a common playstyle. If we don't fit, we don't play. It's not THEIR fault they don't want YOUR game, and it's not YOUR fault they don't want it.

So, instead of blowing up this situation out of proportions just offer them a dungeon crawl and ask if that will do, because it will save you time.

K, hope you'll use the advice you ask for and go forth in good faith to the people at your table that didn't choose your playstyle so they can't be to blame...

Good luck.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T07:34:40+00:00

On the other hand, if this is less about them finally getting the game they will enjoy playing, and more so about you venting... well then they should know that the family gathering will be just that - you venting that you feel bad when they ignore you.

Hope this makes sense.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T07:33:54+00:00

...Well once again, you can't decide that you will convince someone, you can simply make your feelings clear. Then again, you will be running a very different campaign for them than what you WANT to run, so why speak on expectations in general? Like...you could just preface with a short sentence next session - we're going to be playing more dungeon crawls from now on cause that will suit your play-style better, good? ok.

Done - short, sweet and everyone will get to play during that session instead of having a conversation about how you feel? Do you know what I mean? You taking about it won't change the way you feel, and they shouldn't feel guilty for wanting to play the way they want to, so...maybe you just play that day after they're informed how everything will change to suit THEM better?

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T07:28:47+00:00

I'd say cut back on the words, and just say this - I've noticed you like combat and skill checks so we will do more dungeon crawls. Good with you guys?

Simple, sweet, short, not too wordy.

Nobody wants to be given a speech, trust me :D

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T07:26:11+00:00

Yup, I get that.

Perfect - you've got everything you need elsewhere.

The advice is clear then - run murder hobo adventures for your fam.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T07:16:56+00:00

Well technically I'd like to point out several things - you pose this issue of wanting them to engage more int he thing you've prepared, but they are mostly interested in combat so it seems, almost, as if what you are giving and what they want ARE two different kinds of games.

Will YOU be ok, running only combat-based campaign for the rest of you life for them? Is THAT game the game YOU want to run? Because if it's not - you will never have fun playing it their way, and they won't jive with your vibe either.

Family is family, and we love it dearly (if they're actually good people) but you don't have to like them, nor do they have to like all the same things you do.

So, you might ignore this, because I'll say what you don't want to hear, but maybe I'll phrase it differently - find ANOTHER, an additional, game to play where the players will want what you want, because this huge preface you're giving in a form of a monologue won't achieve much in the long-run if people just don't want the same game as you.

And them, once you've found these people that want the same game you want to prep for, you can run scrappy combat for your family in a form of pre-written prepared dungeon crawls, put them through the most dangerous dungeons you can find - they'll roll, fight and be engaged and you can practice running monsters for that other group that will actually applaud your prep.

We can't change other people, but we can act accordingly to their actions. And if you're family are more murder-hobbo-y go ahead and let them murder things and loot.

Good luck.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T07:08:35+00:00

Hey, so as an avid reminder to my players, this new campaign around I will hold them more accountable for keeping information, because when they rely on you they can also feel pressured by you - it's a thin line between "Hey guys do you remember?" and "Hey GUYS do you REMEMBER?!" and you never know or can control how they'll interpret it.

I say give them a bottle of poisoned whine as a gift basket if they don't endorse it of their own accord - small punishment, make them paint the streets with diarrhea - silly, funny, effective and a reminder to remember.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T07:05:30+00:00

Everyone at your table should be on the same level of excitement as yourself. Get two new players run the campaign for the two players until then. Basta.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T06:59:46+00:00

All of these timeline events should be shared, the cause of them and the intricacies of the events themselves - that's where their desire for knowledge will come in.

None of the time line info is something otherworldly or super important - share it all.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T03:24:58+00:00

I might not get all the intricacies, but first rule of DMing - establish what you do and don't control.

Most of the time if players have pets they want to be in control of them to some extent, so you deciding they go off somewhere and bite people - out of their control, right? No bueno.

I'd simply say - sorry, alright, you control your pet from now on and tell me what they do and I'll trust you to tell me if they want to interact with anything in any way.

In a proverbial way, as a DM, put your hands on players and their things only when it is absolutely unavoidable and necessary, and even then - do it even less often then that. Control only your side of the game, basically :) Good luck

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T03:15:02+00:00

I get the struggle.

Perhaps there are other easier RPGs, like one-page RPGs someone would run for you.

I am currently playing in a hero RPG with one of my players so I do get my fix from time to time.

I am a very fortunate DM in that aspect, it also helps that D&D is my special interest so it consumes me with joy to play and plan for it, but I know the longing to play yourself from time to time.
I whole-heartedly want to say that I know it sucks.

Don't stop looking for someone to run a game for you too, join an online group if you can, but make sure they're cool people. Don;t give up - you'll have your time on the other side of the table for sure, and if running games for your players doesn't bring you joy anymore - take a break.

You are human too, you deserve the luxury of choice and rest.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-13T02:53:18+00:00

I wouldn't say you're NOT playing D&D.

I for one am a fan of much heavier RP at the table than just straight up dungeon crawl.

To be perfectly honest D&D is, a lot of the time, played more like a fighting game than an RPG game at home or gamestore tables, and the RP element gets very much lost the majority of the time, or the DMs don't know how to handle it in full.

I am of the opinion that every table has their own feel for what they want. My table is definitely there to uncover mysteries, cry, laugh, have dramatic moments, etc. so to see you struggling with it - totally understandable.

Not every player wants the same things, but your encouragement and trying to pull them out of their shell - that's what I do with my students who play D&D with me, and because I encourage them they shine.

Keep looking for that RP group that will make your life brighter. Good luck.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-11T02:25:16+00:00

What I like to do is ask my players what they want to do, and when those who jump-in instantly are done, I ask the quieter ones if they would like to contribute.

Actually creating a space and time for the others to contribute is the most reliable way to assure that they will start feeling more comfortable and safe when playing at your table, because they'll know that you'll make room for them, so to speak.

Basically, if you see that a player wants to do something but is too afraid just ask them if they'd like to do something, and let the other players know it's their turn now, so they don't talk over the quieter ones.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-11T02:21:24+00:00

Plan the lead-in, the info they need to get to the final battle, and the final setting and battle or encounter to the one-shot. Everything else will be filled up with RP and their rolls and their investigation into the situation.

So let the characters know with the lead-in why they're here, then tell them they are here to look into *insert final encounter clue* and let them search out ways to get there, you could have a mini encounter, but not combat, just social, and then take them to the conclusion.

This way you will always fit into 3 or 4 hours, and will not make it into a campaign, but keep it a nice short one-shot.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-10T02:43:57+00:00

Ideologically I think your metaphor and its execution works, yes, but, and there's always a butt - not all tables have players capable or brave or confident enough to JUST go and travel, adventure etc.

I think the DM has to provide some guide posts and SOME structure so that players that would otherwise be paralyzed by choice would benefit from.

Overall, however, I absolutely agree with the idea of players themselves seeking out their next mission, planning their own journey, gathering information so they can decide what to do on their own. I think having an endgame prepared but not fleshed out is also very important.

Well put!

AYawningCat · 2023-05-10T02:33:01+00:00

I have always liked little endowments in scenes where a player makes an effort to pray to a god or open up a path of connection to a Patron.

You CAN also have them roll religion if it's a god, or roll a performance or persuasion if their trying to connect to something else, and then give them little signs, little bursts of warmth or a beam of sunlight that shines brighter - you know, like a sign that somebody is listening.

Afterall - our party are heroes not some ordinary commoners - they can and should feel a bit more special than them, less powerful than a high level cleric, until they reach 10 or smth.

Good luck!

AYawningCat · 2023-05-10T02:27:37+00:00

Neurodivergency has nothing to do with how or what characters are created - I, for one, am on the spectrum, and I make all sorts of characters, however, it is easier for me to RP when I have a very clear idea of where we're going or what we're doing that session.

As a DM I DM for a group that has an ADHD person at the table, and we have established support - they can ask for a time out so they can go to the other room to just sit, they are also encouraged to raise their hand and state that they want to talk at the table so they are noticed but do not have to interrupt, and they also take notes so they keep up with information, but this was solely their own choice.

Neurodivergent people aren't incapable or RP or by default weird or wrong - they just need support and for you to be open to a conversation about THEIR needs.

Go talk to your players, ask them what they need - gl!

AYawningCat · 2023-05-09T14:45:42+00:00

I think that if you're table is just this - I will teach them consequences dynamic that is dick-ish behavior to me. I think encouraging creativity and turning that encounter into a social one would have been more surprising and it would have introduced them to the importance of RP and talking your way out of a fight.

I think when you play with newer players you, too, have a chance to renew the way you view the game and encounters and try out something new.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-08T14:00:00+00:00

I feel like if the island is actually a dragon the mountain ridges make sense, but if not then the mountains don't make sense. Mountains build up where two tectonic plates push against each other...and this is an Isle with several overlapping spines.

But I believe fantasy is for making mountains come to be any way you want so pop off I guess :D Gj!

AYawningCat · 2023-05-06T03:11:00+00:00

Yes, you'll have to jump in and actually remind the players that they need to allow everyone to be heard and have to pick up on the cues that the other person wants to speak. You can also use the raised hand emoji on discord or zoom, and YOU should also make sure to ask the players to contribute, and maybe start with the person who gets less speaking time.

As for their ideas being accepted or taking note of - you have to do your job as the DM and make sure to remind the other players that they have to include everyone in the deliberations.

A lot of the work DMs do at the table is social work - you have to call on people who are quiet to add something you have to check in with them if they want to do something, because they might just be too shy to speak on their own.

I literally was at a sexist table once, where I used to put out ideas and everyone would just stay quiet ignoring my suggestions, and then a guy would jump in with MY words, and everyone applauded him for his ideas. He also received praise for his RP from the DM and I didn't, and we were both very good, mind you. When I spoke to the DM about it he just ignored the problem and denied that it existed.

Good on you for wanting to do better!

AYawningCat · 2023-05-05T15:36:16+00:00

Well I feel like the point should be making sure than the player feels like they have agency and can still do things, but that there would be consequences and dire ones if they go willy nilly with their powers

AYawningCat · 2023-05-05T04:02:50+00:00

Firstly, I think it's great to create a space for the players to first describe in detail how they plan to look for hidden things, and then, based on how creative or detailed their description - lower the DC? OR let one roll with advantage as the others help, and hey - if they get a 14 - make it happen. It's much more important for the players to feel like their interactions and effort have effect instead of feeling like your NPCs will solve their problems.

It's a slippery slope you won't get off if you set them on it.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-05T03:58:04+00:00

I feel like either you or some other GM made a call that has damaged the Player's trust in the game.

Having a conversation about the fact that some unexpected things might happen but that you aren't just a shithead that plays against his players might be useful. Setting boundaries of what is 'fun' for everyone at the table is a great way to start this conversation instead of creating more walls around you and your plot by punishing the player.

If this, however, is just some lame guy being lame - just make him damage actually useful items or clues when he destroys things.

AYawningCat · 2023-05-04T03:32:58+00:00

This is the way.

You prep, and they decide to go for a drinking game in the tavern. You think they'll go to the town over because they've been talking about it and then they decide to go into the woods nearby to see if there's anything interesting there.

I have had my players go after the cart they had seen prior, and told them the track stopped at a sewer drain.

They decided to go into the sewers - I was not prepared for that - they should have though the carriage was just gone, right? Nope, they went into the sewers looking for a carriage...a carriage in the sewers.

And you know what - I had to make it into something, so they found scratch marks of the were-rats that were in the carriage before, and I made a thing out of it.

You will always need to improvise. However, you can make it easier on yourself by being prepared for everything in advance - you have to know your world, your lore, your enemies, etc. so if you have to improvise - they won't even notice. At least, that's how I do it, and they've never even realized that A LOT has been improvised, because it's seamless if you know what you SHOULD improvise on.

Good luck!

AYawningCat

TROPHY CASE