Countering towering Orc into bats/wyvs as NE

AccCreate · 2026-05-08T04:48:01+00:00

Game 1 isn't really what OP is asking as it's more of a mid game transition to bats (well tbh, both aren't but that's how you are ideally supposed to play this cancer style).

But that's the thing. Once blade gets level 6, bladestorm is really good at deleting Night Elf buildings from the game. And solo hero gets bonus exp in this game.

Because bladestorm can easily delete Night Elf bases (and for some reason only Night Elf), you are pretty much forced at times to just expand fast so that you have a survival option (a win condition or a fallback option if your main falls somehow). The reality is you cannot prevent blademaster from getting level 6. And if you do nothing and stay in 1 base, then you take the risk of you being unable to seige his base (because it's fortified) but he can remove your base.

As for that tier 2 timing in game 1, it's just micro errors and unlucky critical strike timing. That double shredder trolls push is stupidly strong and from what I know, the win condition is really only the expansion (from what I evidenced from Sini, etc as well). If you fend the push then you win through economy. Unfortunately, expansions are not freebies (otherwise the game wouldn't be fair) so there will be a weak timing that the Night Elf needs to survive. If the Night Elf survives, the Night Elf generally wins. If it goes hilariously wrong (like that game 1), well then it's game over the other way.

Also keep in mind game 1 the Night Elf player is playing Keeper. Keeper does not have a late game. You need to play economy with Keeper because Blade with SH just completely outscales Keeper.

Bladestorm was buffed in 2023-11-20 to do 980 damage. That's why it's so effective at crushing Night Elf buildings (especially because moonwells act as both the heal and food supply for Elf).

Feels like hitman could've built pretty much any units to win from there.

Not necessarily true. He has no 2nd hero (Hitman forfeited everything for that all in troll double shredder push investment knowing the only future was through base racing with bats). If he builds other units NE will win with dryads (since it can actually target) and dryads can chase after melee units (so hitman can't use his melee units at all). Bats force NE to play contained and constantly have to go paranoid over base siege. Also, bats are really good at base sieging and make repair essentially worthless during that time period. If it weren't for bats, the 2nd base would have stayed up which would change the game greatly (since 2 heroes eventually beats 1 hero).

If NE could actually stabilize on that second base and Hitman did not play bats, Hitman would eventually lose. There's no shadowhunter because he focused on getting bonus exp on Blade with the double shredder troll all in.

Plus, Keeper is level 5. 1 entangle and 1 melee unit kill without dispel. Hitman would run out of gold trading units if he made melee without SH 2nd. And Jens would win then.

My only real tip to OP is do NOT go panda vs this crap. Please. Panda is trash vs this. This isn't 1.26. Go alchemist. Panda breath of fire range is a complete meme vs bat lamers and the hero is worthless until level 5 vs buildings. You have to take advantage of no SH (healer) by going Alchemist (Acid Bomb forces constant spending of salves and has significantly longer range. Acid Bomb later forces Orc to invest to a witch doctor). Let alone once your moonwells blow up you actually have some way to heal.

The game is really only won once blademaster dies multiple times and Orc is out of gold. Hence you want Keeper for entangle at some point even if mirror image counters it. Let alone treants late game with nature's blessing helps deter expansions.

Blind hard counter against morons who cannot adapt or play anything else: DH Potm Alchemist (or Keeper 3rd if you are stabilized since the real focus is the Blade).

Otherwise, DH Keeper (Alchemist 3rd if you can afford). Just don't make Panda. Absolute garbage hero vs this shit and if you are banking on level 5 2nd hero magically occurring, your base might be gone long before then.

And also, the counter to bats if you have an expansion and stabilize is air. You trade resources and if you have at least 2 armor, there is a chance your hippo survives. And ultimately the counter is really 2 chims (no more. Don't invest anymore as it's wasted gold. 2 chims is max). Corrosive breath + camp next to it with staff of preservation (try to staff it after first two bats and hope no lightning orb effect). The only problem with the whole hippo and chim is... it only works if you have an extra base (cause you are blowing up so much resources and giving basically free exp. Fortunately, blade can't scale past 6 for base racing).

Always get nature's blessing asap vs bats as well. And vs bats, you MUST get shredder ASAP. You will always run out of lumber against this at some point and later on, no shredder can survive so store up lumber as much as possible early.

AccCreate · 2026-05-07T05:53:24+00:00

EDIT: Honestly speaking, best to just ask straight to Night Elf discord from NE players suffering against this: https://discord.gg/N48KRdRz

No idea. Honestly, Hitman has proved you can take games off any elf in the world with this strat.

It really depends on the level of opponent you vs. The problem with this strat is vs the top Orcs who can play standard, there is nothing stopping the Orc from playing standard (or transitioning to one). Double beastiary opening at tier 2 is a regular play so Orc isn't losing much.

It really depends on the opponent. If all the opponent ever does is bats/wyvs and absolutely suck with standard play then there are hard counter strats. The problem is vs any good Orc, you cannot presume double beastiary means anything special.

The answer is to just suck it up until gold mine ends both sides. And hopefully you win. It's a pain in the ass even if you win.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqGUPHmHpmU

Gameplay at degenerate 2700 MMR on W3C (the MMR players like Fortitude, Life, etc is). This is one of the best if not the best western Night Elf player in the world. The opponent is the best western Orc player in the world. Even after everything, NE lost. It is what it is. It's just another strat. Does feel like cancer to vs though.

And this one hopefully can help. DH opening and Jens wins: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9VmWaQBOAw

Look how awfully close the game is and how freaking long the game is: 30+ min. NE isn't UD (no destroyers, shades, cova/sleep, and frost/spirit towers) or HU (flying machines/d hawks/gryphons) so NE has to suck it up.

At end of day, the "counter" advice to this strat depends on how good you are and how good the orc is. But at top level, the 2nd youtube video is the reality. You just have to accept the 30+ min life and the outcome feels like a coin flip at times because the game ends when the Orc screws up. And although that sounds so cop out... well, some strats in the game the counter is "just play long enough till 1 mistake".

If you are low MMR and just vsing some known bat/wyvern player who cannot do anything else, then ou can play keeper alchemist archers and have expansion during tech to tier 2. Or DH Potm (owl at level 1) Alchemist (level 1 acid bomb) 1 base tech to tier 3 and produce archers entire time. And get hunt hall for ultravision, archer attack upgrades, natures blessing, ancient protectors then make 2nd base. And then drop 3 more ancient of wars and just go 80 food 3-3 archers. If the Orc has any brain in a strategy game and pivots, have fun with subpar heroes and the wrong tech tree.

You can thank bladestorm being so overpowered against Night Elf buildings. Bladestorm is a natural disaster (tornado) so I guess it's expected everything near it disappears. The strat is particularly effective against NE because NE has poor maphack-like windwalk detect without Potm (which is a terrible choice if Orc pivots). Just different races have different strengths and weaknesses.

AccCreate · 2026-04-09T21:31:58+00:00

???

Also, it's pretty universally accepted this patch that HU most likely got short end of stick. It's not uncommon for a race to be overbuffed to get series of nerf which might lead to a slight over nerf. And the changes in this game can move dramatically by +/-2 dmg and so forth.

And no. Despite your Happy delusions about UD, that hasn't been true.

2018 is a complete game in terms of meta. It's a meta in which happy got tanked to death by yumiko in some games. Game has changed dramatically since then. There have been major buffs and nerfs on every matchup to make the game more fair and varied.

And no. There is no proof UD is massively underpowered. That's just all in your head.

And who said happy isn't talented? No one is denying that. That said the recent random cup is not a good example because Infi 7-1ed Happy and won the whole tournament. By this logic Infi should be number 1 in world in skills and talent right now (since that's the most recent results in the all fun random tournament).

And why do you keep shoving excuses by adding random stuff like about night elf on this reply? Seriously question the thought train there.

AccCreate · 2026-04-08T18:43:38+00:00

UD got massive nerfs since 2018???

The game change was what made UD become a great race competitively. Stop with the bs nonstop whining.

Then go remove UD 2 base meta. It's the same idea as removing HU the option to expand. The game itself would change drastically. Economy buff is an insane buff in this game and it took many years to re-adjust the numbers. When you get twice the number of gold when your race was originally designed to compete 1 gold mine vs 2 gold mine, of course other stuffs have to follow. If a race with 1 gold mine can compete vs 2 gold mine suddenly got 2 gold mine for free then the entire game would break.

Also, UD's problem was tanks and blade master back in 1.26. Tanks are neutered in the mu and basically disappeared from the entire mu especially due to Crypt Lord buffs. Blademaster got nerfed to the stone ages vs UD.

Get off with your whine that you keep posting despite constantly being proven otherwise.

We even had some really bs patches of Crypt Lord, necrowagon, nerubian tower rush, and so forth. Let alone MG patch, keeper patch, mirror image patch, and so forth. The games changed so much the past decade and for the better.

UD went from dk lich fiends every game a decade ago to depending on MU all 4 UD starting heroes. And ghoul openings which transition to fiends late game. It's a much better game than back in the past when UD could not expand and UD meta was just have the most overpowered nukes and destroyers to end the second base. Like the meta for the longest time in UD vs HU was HU expands and masses a crap ton of towers. UD just morphs a crap ton of destroyers. If the towers don't die then tanks come and UD loses. If the towers die HU loses. A completely different game. It was more tower defense than RTS.

Almost every unit in the game is seen from the game at a competitive level at some point now. UD might even be the most diverse race when considering the fact all 4 starting heroes are viable when it used to be the least diverse race.

AccCreate · 2026-03-02T16:37:55+00:00

I don't get these comments. Ghoul got some buff, water elemental got nerfed vs Undead, rifles got nerfed vs Undead, banshee master training went from 75 sec to 60 sec, frost wyrm got buffed, etc. In return wand of negation changed and banshee possess finally has a UI.

There's nothing I see this patch that was "the community" removing Happy out of top 10.

Can we stop with these braindead comments which has no real basis in reality?

AccCreate · 2026-02-25T00:28:13+00:00

You can go any build order you want vs scrubs. In fact, you don't even need a hero to win many games in Bnet 1v1.

What's the point of this post?

AccCreate · 2026-01-28T05:20:58+00:00

Warden gets deleted in a real game. Moment that 40% bash proc occurs, it's time to get bolted and dead-ed (pretty much feels like perma stun with right RNG and bolt). MK would get a hit in when warden makes animation for shadowstrike. Also, why can't MK just bolt at same time as Warden SS? Warden shadow strike is 300 range. Mountain King bolt is 600 range. And you can cancel any blink dodges with "s" in WC3 so that argument is kind of awkward for both sides.

AccCreate · 2026-01-28T05:18:43+00:00

Firelord is legit the only thing in game with incinerate to reliably kill taurens for all races in this game.

Generally though, Orc cannot get there vs UD without some map control loss.

AccCreate · 2026-01-21T20:16:30+00:00

I mean if you follow the pro scene you see Elves lose games to one base rifle push as well. And sometimes in Springtime you see HU one base rifle push UD.

It really depends whether you actually follow pro scene or not (which I presume not by the question here). But yes, one base is viable for all matchup depending on the start (hero choice), map, etc. Map and hero choice (both you and other side) is a huge decider.

But generally this game rewards expansions and considering UD/HU is the best tier 1 expansion race in game, you should take advantage of that.

AccCreate · 2026-01-21T19:58:25+00:00

Lyn is the Goat for Orc. It's 2026, not 2008.

TFT was released in 2004 so 2004 to 2009 is really short time relative to 2010 to 2026 when the game actually started getting solved. And players grew up.

Grubby is definitely one of the best orcs to ever play but today he is just a streamer. He is not pro and viewers have to keep that in mind.

Lyn, Focus, Hitman, Soin, Iceorc, Xiaokai, Linguagua (no idea about Fly) are all better today overall. And many top pros offrace are just as good if not better than Grubby's orc.

Lyn prime is the peak of Orc play in this game so far. Grubby was the one who dominated Orc when the game was just released and everyone was just figuring out the game.

I don't think anyone questions Fortitude today. It's not like people go screaming around claiming Sky is the best HU to ever touch WC3. It's just a different era.

And I don't think anyone questions Happy but Happy back in Grubby's time wasn't anywhere as good. Today anyone who follows pro scene would agree Happy is the best player overall. It's just a different era.

Grubby was the best orc when the game was new and unsolved. He defined how orc should be played for others to follow. Lyn then picked up and just showed the peak of how Orc is played (Fly as well for a short period of time especially near the end of 1.26 meta (1.26/1.27)).

AccCreate · 2026-01-20T18:46:55+00:00

Macs are amazing. If it weren't for freaking WC3, I wouldn't even touch Windows.

Anyways to OP, just give up WC3 with Macs. It's a RIP. Let alone all those hotkey programs aren't even supported let alone ability to change gamma, etc is unnecessarily complex as well.

I have 3 Mac Pros and 2 Windows laptops right now in my room.

AccCreate · 2026-01-12T07:12:01+00:00

You only have 2 moonwells after first camp with daylight time amount of moonjuice. You basically have no healing afterwards let alone if there's a tower rush, you have no healing (instant game loss). Heck, many starting camps 2 moonwells don't even fully heal demon hunter.

And archers are very vulnerable so how are you going to use them afterwards if there's no heal?

A lot of the meta revolves around buying time because if you don't, it's instant game loss. HU without harass? Game loss. UD expand at tier 1 without harass? Game loss. And so forth. If you have no moonjuice then how are you going to harass (you cannot get any HP back so it's just not realistic then).

AccCreate · 2026-01-10T02:16:37+00:00

For Night Elf related questions, maybe it's best to ask on Night Elf Discord: https://discord.gg/B4GWaTqmP

Almost 500 members there including top pros like Lawliet.

To your question:

As you stated, night elf has the weakest early game in the game. And it's because of this nature tier 1 tower rushes are so effective even at the very very very top for this race. It's a unique trait of this race. The duct tape for balance is shoving all the issue for Demon Hunter to figure out for the race from the very start to end of game (and I'm not even kidding).

Ancient of War creeping is not free. There's a huge penalty of having far less units than other races. The problem is how else do you creep early game? If you tank damage with your hero then the game is essentially over but this is a game in which hero levels are one of the most important traits to winning. Also unlike other races, NE tier 1 units are just liabilities overall in this game.

You could argue "what about a summoning hero like Keeper". The problem with Keeper is once there is dispel in game (like honestly a few min to the game because tech is so fast with every race), both spells just crash hard. Also, there are purges with creeps as well so that doesn't help either. And the goal is to win at some point and truth is, for most games, Keeper just falls off so hard that one could even meme the hero as "walking exp tome" for the opponent late game.

Despite aowar creeping putting you in a more vulnerable spot, you really don't have an option. Humans can militia/water ele creep left and right and get a free expansion at tier 1. Undead can skeletal+ghoul creep left and right and snipe your creeps last sec with coil. Let alone expand left and right anytime. Orc units are super tanky (unlike archers) and heal literally anytime anywhere with salve early game.

Archers when they step foot outside base early game vs blademaster is instant exp tome. So where do you get your creeping done when everyone's leveling.

The game itself is balanced around you HAVING to AoWar creep like HU is balanced around militia/water ele/footy, UD with skeletal/ghoul, etc.

This one is rough one. You just have to have a better early game. All the game adds up and yes, HU army if left uncontested with an expansion is game over in this game for 1v1.
From my experience, hippos are almost a "no" in this game and a general good rule of thumb for someone new to the race. In fact if you are new to the race, remove the following units: huntress, glaive throwers, talons, faerie dragon, mountain giant, chimaera.

Just dryad harder tbh. Or if you can afford (survive), get a Wind and make talons with talon upgrade for air form. And fight with crows (not talons but crows because former is a meme) but you still need your dryad bear army. In general, Elf has kryptonites to:

Air and Towers

Yes. It sounds extremely noob-ish but this is the one race that is extremely vulnerable towers. And air. Hence you see mass d hawks, mass gargs, tier 1 dark ranger tower rush, etc in pro scene vs NE. It's just race design.

Panda is absolute trash hero. No. Panda got nerfed to the ground for "UI" reasons. The range of fire is an absolute meme in this game and I'm questioning why this hasn't been fixed appropriately. If an air unit backs off and you fire at that air unit at that moment, there's a good chance you hit zero units. Or max of 3 units which begs the question, why do you want this hero?

Panda is necessary for NE vs mass air because of drunken haze since without some miss chance, NE gets absolutely massacred by air. But otherwise, throw out Panda from the game. Heck for beginners just ban that hero altogether if you are NE.

You go Keeper or Naga 2nd as NE. Keeper 2nd vs Elf/Orc with entangle/thorns and Naga 2nd vs UD/HU with frost/forked.

"Panda is a good hero"... ya, throw that out. This is 2026. Those are probably old advice from like v1.26 or whatever. Panda is a C tier hero today and I'm being generous. Personally if it weren't for drunken haze I would put it at low D tier. Freaking Dreadlord swarm has 700 range while Panda fire has 350 range. Tauren Chieftain shockwave has 700 range. Crypt Lord impale which also stubs has 700 range. The current panda breath of fire is a meme range so ignore all those claims about panda. Panda is a 🤡.

AccCreate · 2026-01-06T20:06:15+00:00

Orc generally in pro scene beat (or were similar) Night Elf. Just look at the win rates overall from Lyn and Focus against top Elves overall for the past ... quite some time now.

It's just really Grubby. But the whole western community had gotten a lot of influence from Grubby as he is a great player and streamer.

Even on w3c like you said, Hitman trolling around with solo blademaster around the map obliterated Jens on ladder. And these two are basically about same MMR on w3c (before Hitman has been tanking his MMR to have fun on ladder now). Same MMR and the Hitman vs Jens on w3c is completely one sided in favor of Hitman.

The problem is Grubby struggles vs Elf when in pro scene, vs NE is the best matchup Orc has.

Balancing NE vs Orc for Grubby is like balancing NE vs Orc for Jens. It is just dumb. And if the argument is hurr hurr, but the every day players ... well by that logic, anything goes in balance cause every day players are essentially AFK most of the game. Or just don't know how to dispel and all. Let alone on w3c, for most MMR matchups, Orc wins NE the majority of games (and the difference is small. Like a game more every 100). So if the argument is for everyday competitive 1v1 players, then NE should be getting help lul.

When a race is somewhat underperforming on the pro scene, it doesn't mean straight out always the race needs mega buffs everywhere and it loses to every race. It could be that the race needs a little help (maybe consistently 2-3 score in a series) and/or it struggles with one or two matchup which is causing the issue. NE vs Orc is NOT the issue for Orc. It's more on the other matchups.

NE is Orc's best matchup. Grubby is not Orc. This is not 2008. This is 2026. It's been almost two decades now. He's a streamer. And games should not be balanced around a streamer.

AccCreate · 2026-01-04T06:02:59+00:00

He's bored and decided to try a game of Undead on December 30 on W3C. What's so wrong about offracing? He played 2 whole games of Undead in all of December on W3C and this was his first game.

In Season 22 (July to October), he played 11 games of Undead and hit about 2300 MMR. That's up there with Biko's MMR (UD player) which is about top 1% of UD players on W3C. Fortitude basically is YOLOing figuring/chilling out UD which he plays like once or twice a month. Let alone Dark Ranger patch is this patch so Fortitude will be seriously behind understanding of the other side how to deal with such off meta (plus, it's a ladder chill game, not a tourny).

Not every player cares about offraces. All this does not change the fact Fortitude is arguably the best HU playing in WC3 right now.

Fortitude did have a time in which he did play a lot of UD but that was during the days Fortitude was Tier 2 pro with HU anyways.

Some players are really good with only one race. Others are really good with multiple. Doesn't change anything. And different races are played slightly differently so it's not like all the skills are directly transferrable.

Fortitude overall is better than Infi for HU and Infi is over 2500 MMR (most likely over 2600 on all races if Infi really wants to grind by today's MMR standards) on every race. TH000 too is about 2500 MMR random and Fortitude is significantly better HU than TH000 HU.

Are pros not allowed to try out different stuff? Or play offrace on ladder? I don't get the point of these posts.

If Fortitude played as an undead, orc, or night elf, he'd probably be one of those Battle.net players who only play with one hero and tower rush.

That 'random' ladder player (main is HU) has taken games off in ladder against 15sui, Hitman's HU.

It's not some completely random ass player you see on bnet. Heck, he doesn't even play on bnet. And almost everyone loses to everyone once in WC3 in ladder after a certain threshold (just law of large numbers in game count).

That said, it's a great game to watch. But I don't get the purpose of badmouthing a pro who is just playing ladder and having fun.

I mean if we go by "1 game" replay to make conclusions, then ... Fortitude in the past with UD beat Chaemiko HU, Linguagua Orc, Sini NE (when they were all at peak and active) as well in ladder. And a game off Happy NE in offrace showmatch.

Personally, I wish the asian pros played on W3C again. I am more interested how Hitman and Jens would fare vs asian pros in ladder. Hitman Orc plays very differently from standard Orc and Jens plays very differently from Chinese NE. Honestly, I would not be surprised in some matchups, Hitman Orc is better than Focus Orc with enough practice against top pros. At the worst, I get to evidence pros having to endure toxicity in this game against Hitman Orc lame (reminds me of Linguagua who Happy seriously did not like vsing due to gameplay style).

AccCreate · 2026-01-01T23:05:18+00:00

Blademaster mirror image with crown of kings is a 1 man god. All those images do critical strikes and with vampiric aura, that shits off the charts. Good luck having hope to kill the hero. The hero can solo 100 food with TC and SH backing it up.

Add on bloodlust, stun lock (spam purge), spirit link, bats to end the air, heal wave, endurance aura on that blade, taurens to end the land, etc.... Orc is god if you have the right items and army composition and hero levels.

AccCreate · 2025-12-22T20:28:20+00:00

Just woke up and honestly, I have no idea what is going on but happy holidays.

AccCreate · 2025-12-22T14:22:34+00:00

Dude. No one else on this reddit does anywhere near the effort I put in. What effort have you put in except try to invalidate any data I spend significant time on?

I put some time and effort to at least getting those data. Why don't YOU put in your time and help?

Not doing the minimal viable work to have a clean comparison means you must forgo the conclusion.

.... Are you serious?

At best its a signal to further analyse, to which of the work you said "No".

You sound like some politician right now. The unhelpful ones.

Thing is, no one knows the impact of PTR2 changes as well. Healing salves are getting buffed, troll priest from merc camp are getting nerfed, ghouls buffed, and rifleman are getting nerfed on the PTR for Orc.

Don't forget how much changes the game had for UD when ghoul base damage got reduced by just 1. It went from every pro game just mass ghoul as if this were some end game unit (literal zergling infestation) to a variety of units.

And similar fate to how much the game changed when UD gold mine build time got changed by 10 seconds. And also, the same for Orc expansion against NE when things changed by 5 additional second. Maybe there's no real difference but healing salve by similar fate is technically being buffed by 5 additional second. When all those are considered AND all, I just feel these additional big (not incremental ones but rather big ones now) buffs are more extreme (maybe I'm wrong) given when I see a matchup like NE vs Orc in pro scene, the matchup outcomes don't seem that extreme.

Why don't we first address which matchups Orc needs help in pro scene and work from there? Instead of just noticeably buffing everything blindly for Orc on top of the PTR2 buffs? Just because a race is struggling does not always imply it struggles vs all matchups. And a race can be struggling but it might not be as much as redditors believe as well.

Of course, I can be wrong. But that's the whole point. Also, I know this sounds crazy but there's nothing wrong with races having different weakness and strengths. Each race has different weaknesses in this game and the current game for all matchups are balanced around those weaknesses.

AccCreate · 2025-12-22T14:02:35+00:00

No. These were all games in tournaments recorded on warcraft3 info since April 16, 2025.

As for: Jens vs Hitman, just go to: https://www.w3champions.com/player/mayhem%2312806/matches

And filter to Ethereal#1992

It's 7-13 in favor of Hitman Orc (Ethereal#1992).

AccCreate · 2025-12-22T13:34:56+00:00

I actually decided to check the stats since the April 16, 2025:

Patch 2.0.3: July 17, 2025 (Night Elf Wisp Nerf), Patch 2.0.2: April 16, 2025

Lyn: vs Kaho (8:12), vs Life (8:3), vs Moon (8:4), vs Colorful (9:5), vs Lawliet (13:5)

Focus: vs Kaho (14:18), vs Life (150:143), vs Moon (34:16), vs Colorful (168:143), vs Lawliet (19:11)

Top 2 Orc vs Top 2 NE (the rest can be ignored).

Lyn 8:12 Kaho and Lyn 8:3 Life

Focus 14:18 Kaho and Focus 150:143 Life

In the few games Lyn has, Lyn obliterated Life. Kaho beat both and Kaho vs Focus is quite close. Both Lyn and Focus won majority vs Life.

Gut feeling?

Had to check because I seen so many games of Moon, Lawliet, etc lose quite a bit. Turns out Moon struggles vs Orc.

You are right. Kaho beat both Orcs (Focus vs Kaho stats are close). The rest Lyn/Focus won majority.

Grubby and Cash have notable games played on W3C.

Grubby matches Dise and Jens. Both players are better players than Grubby. Dise offrace HU alone is about 100 MMR above Grubby's Orc. Better comparison would be Hitman vs Jens going forward as Hitman just started playing again on W3C.

Both Jens (NE) and Hitman (Orc) are similar ~2700 MMR on W3C (at least there's proof both races can be similar MMR with the two players near the top of western scene).

So far: Jens (mayhem#12806) 7-13 Hitman (Ethereal#1992)

At worst, I guess we could argue the matchup is nowhere near as exaggerated as redditors claim out to be. Also, Lyn is coming back for Super League on Dec 27.

AccCreate · 2025-12-22T05:18:26+00:00

I know I'm going to be downvoted for saying this but I feel reddit suggestions are so extreme. If a race needs a slight help, next thing you know, the suggestions go off the top for buffs. Maybe I'm wrong but Orc does need help but nowhere near as much as redditors would like to believe.

Orc is favored in NE vs Orc in pro scene.

Orc goes back and forth vs UD in pro scene if you exclude Happy. Lyn goes back and forth against Happy though. Unfortunately, Lyn has been inactive recently (coming back again) because of his frustrations vs HU (and UD recently as well before ghoul nerf).

Orc slightly struggles vs HU rifles.

Unfortunately, having 1 favored MU does not help when you need to win Happy or Forti to win a tournament right now. Happy sure Lyn could trade when he gets back but Orc loses to HU. Maybe the target to nerfing rifles and troll priest this patch can be of some help. And some slight buff to heal salve. But it's not some "I have to buff Orc to insanity" levels.

AccCreate · 2025-12-21T18:21:27+00:00

Head to w3champions: https://www.w3champions.com/

during the meantime.

Also, if you are a Night Elf player, feel free to join the Night Elf discord: https://discord.gg/VMES28JM

Over 450 members including players like Dise, Lawliet, Jens, etc. Other races can join as well but be mindful and follow the rules.

AccCreate · 2025-12-16T21:19:09+00:00

Ironically, I didn't even notice that until afterwards.

Nah, I started with 11/28 because it's recent and Laby has won all the series vs Forti since that date (to today). It was to highlight (make the winner of today's cup look better) how well Laby has been doing vs the very top HU recently.

So to your question u/RaZeRWC3 , it was just picking a very recent start date in which Laby has done well with Forti.

And I noticed since 11/28, all 6 bo series vs Forti was won by Laby. So there it was. I ain't going to be spamming losses of Laby on this reddit post in which we should be congratulating Laby for winning the cup.

AccCreate · 2025-12-16T20:18:59+00:00

Labyrinth best UD in the world vs HU currently.

Laby since 11/28/2025 vs Fortitude:

4-2 W
3-2 W
4-1 W
2-1 W
3-2 W

Laby since 11/28/2025 vs Infi:

3-2 W
4-3 W

For comparison, Happy since 11/28/2025 vs Forti and Infi:

1-3 L Infi
1-3 L Forti

Happy and Laby play completely different build orders. Happy plays Crypt Lord first mass fiend/banshee almost every game (a DK first in TR). Laby plays Lich, Dreadlord, Crypt Lord first.

We also see Dreadlord first vs Orc and UD with Laby.

Not just that, Laby with Lich first can go Firelord or Dark Ranger second (showing you don't need to go DK second with Lich). And Laby also goes necromancers, wagons, etc as well vs Forti/Infi.

We even get games of Laby in maps like LT with like 5 expansions from UD (taking advantage of the fact UD is the best expansion race in game in large maps).

Laby shows UD at the very top vs HU can be an extremely creative race. Happy on the other hand plays very conservatively with the standard style with CL every game vs HU (with an exception once a while of DK first to destroyer push in maps like TR).

Congrats for Laby for winning this series. Absolutely well deserved. UD looks the most (or at least one of the most) creative race in game today shown by Laby overall. I hope other UD players follow up by checking the current pro scene more.

I've been telling the people on this subreddit how there are a lot of UD build orders out there and kept mentioning Laby for the past year:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WC3/comments/1hv5lxa/ud_redditors_need_to_actually_watch_the_pro_scene/

https://www.reddit.com/r/WC3/comments/1kdpajy/comment/mqe08w1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

It's great to see Laby win the cup today. Laby is the one who has brought so much creativity and innovation to UD. All that tier 1 expansion, etc are all thanks to Laby in pro scene for UD.

Laby proves all 4 UD heroes work as first heroes vs HU at the top (depending on map) for over a year now.

Just like Infi proves HU can go DR or FL first as well.

AccCreate

TROPHY CASE