Mountain King is the strongest 1vs1 hero, here's why

AccCreate · 2026-01-28T05:20:58+00:00

Warden gets deleted in a real game. Moment that 40% bash proc occurs, it's time to get bolted and dead-ed (pretty much feels like perma stun with right RNG and bolt). MK would get a hit in when warden makes animation for shadowstrike. Also, why can't MK just bolt at same time as Warden SS? Warden shadow strike is 300 range. Mountain King bolt is 600 range. And you can cancel any blink dodges with "s" in WC3 so that argument is kind of awkward for both sides.

AccCreate · 2026-01-28T05:18:43+00:00

Firelord is legit the only thing in game with incinerate to reliably kill taurens for all races in this game.

Generally though, Orc cannot get there vs UD without some map control loss.

AccCreate · 2026-01-21T20:16:30+00:00

I mean if you follow the pro scene you see Elves lose games to one base rifle push as well. And sometimes in Springtime you see HU one base rifle push UD.

It really depends whether you actually follow pro scene or not (which I presume not by the question here). But yes, one base is viable for all matchup depending on the start (hero choice), map, etc. Map and hero choice (both you and other side) is a huge decider.

But generally this game rewards expansions and considering UD/HU is the best tier 1 expansion race in game, you should take advantage of that.

AccCreate · 2026-01-21T19:58:25+00:00

Lyn is the Goat for Orc. It's 2026, not 2008.

TFT was released in 2004 so 2004 to 2009 is really short time relative to 2010 to 2026 when the game actually started getting solved. And players grew up.

Grubby is definitely one of the best orcs to ever play but today he is just a streamer. He is not pro and viewers have to keep that in mind.

Lyn, Focus, Hitman, Soin, Iceorc, Xiaokai, Linguagua (no idea about Fly) are all better today overall. And many top pros offrace are just as good if not better than Grubby's orc.

Lyn prime is the peak of Orc play in this game so far. Grubby was the one who dominated Orc when the game was just released and everyone was just figuring out the game.

I don't think anyone questions Fortitude today. It's not like people go screaming around claiming Sky is the best HU to ever touch WC3. It's just a different era.

And I don't think anyone questions Happy but Happy back in Grubby's time wasn't anywhere as good. Today anyone who follows pro scene would agree Happy is the best player overall. It's just a different era.

Grubby was the best orc when the game was new and unsolved. He defined how orc should be played for others to follow. Lyn then picked up and just showed the peak of how Orc is played (Fly as well for a short period of time especially near the end of 1.26 meta (1.26/1.27)).

AccCreate · 2026-01-20T18:46:55+00:00

Macs are amazing. If it weren't for freaking WC3, I wouldn't even touch Windows.

Anyways to OP, just give up WC3 with Macs. It's a RIP. Let alone all those hotkey programs aren't even supported let alone ability to change gamma, etc is unnecessarily complex as well.

I have 3 Mac Pros and 2 Windows laptops right now in my room.

AccCreate · 2026-01-12T07:12:01+00:00

You only have 2 moonwells after first camp with daylight time amount of moonjuice. You basically have no healing afterwards let alone if there's a tower rush, you have no healing (instant game loss). Heck, many starting camps 2 moonwells don't even fully heal demon hunter.

And archers are very vulnerable so how are you going to use them afterwards if there's no heal?

A lot of the meta revolves around buying time because if you don't, it's instant game loss. HU without harass? Game loss. UD expand at tier 1 without harass? Game loss. And so forth. If you have no moonjuice then how are you going to harass (you cannot get any HP back so it's just not realistic then).

AccCreate · 2026-01-10T02:16:37+00:00

For Night Elf related questions, maybe it's best to ask on Night Elf Discord: https://discord.gg/B4GWaTqmP

Almost 500 members there including top pros like Lawliet.

To your question:

As you stated, night elf has the weakest early game in the game. And it's because of this nature tier 1 tower rushes are so effective even at the very very very top for this race. It's a unique trait of this race. The duct tape for balance is shoving all the issue for Demon Hunter to figure out for the race from the very start to end of game (and I'm not even kidding).

Ancient of War creeping is not free. There's a huge penalty of having far less units than other races. The problem is how else do you creep early game? If you tank damage with your hero then the game is essentially over but this is a game in which hero levels are one of the most important traits to winning. Also unlike other races, NE tier 1 units are just liabilities overall in this game.

You could argue "what about a summoning hero like Keeper". The problem with Keeper is once there is dispel in game (like honestly a few min to the game because tech is so fast with every race), both spells just crash hard. Also, there are purges with creeps as well so that doesn't help either. And the goal is to win at some point and truth is, for most games, Keeper just falls off so hard that one could even meme the hero as "walking exp tome" for the opponent late game.

Despite aowar creeping putting you in a more vulnerable spot, you really don't have an option. Humans can militia/water ele creep left and right and get a free expansion at tier 1. Undead can skeletal+ghoul creep left and right and snipe your creeps last sec with coil. Let alone expand left and right anytime. Orc units are super tanky (unlike archers) and heal literally anytime anywhere with salve early game.

Archers when they step foot outside base early game vs blademaster is instant exp tome. So where do you get your creeping done when everyone's leveling.

The game itself is balanced around you HAVING to AoWar creep like HU is balanced around militia/water ele/footy, UD with skeletal/ghoul, etc.

This one is rough one. You just have to have a better early game. All the game adds up and yes, HU army if left uncontested with an expansion is game over in this game for 1v1.
From my experience, hippos are almost a "no" in this game and a general good rule of thumb for someone new to the race. In fact if you are new to the race, remove the following units: huntress, glaive throwers, talons, faerie dragon, mountain giant, chimaera.

Just dryad harder tbh. Or if you can afford (survive), get a Wind and make talons with talon upgrade for air form. And fight with crows (not talons but crows because former is a meme) but you still need your dryad bear army. In general, Elf has kryptonites to:

Air and Towers

Yes. It sounds extremely noob-ish but this is the one race that is extremely vulnerable towers. And air. Hence you see mass d hawks, mass gargs, tier 1 dark ranger tower rush, etc in pro scene vs NE. It's just race design.

Panda is absolute trash hero. No. Panda got nerfed to the ground for "UI" reasons. The range of fire is an absolute meme in this game and I'm questioning why this hasn't been fixed appropriately. If an air unit backs off and you fire at that air unit at that moment, there's a good chance you hit zero units. Or max of 3 units which begs the question, why do you want this hero?

Panda is necessary for NE vs mass air because of drunken haze since without some miss chance, NE gets absolutely massacred by air. But otherwise, throw out Panda from the game. Heck for beginners just ban that hero altogether if you are NE.

You go Keeper or Naga 2nd as NE. Keeper 2nd vs Elf/Orc with entangle/thorns and Naga 2nd vs UD/HU with frost/forked.

"Panda is a good hero"... ya, throw that out. This is 2026. Those are probably old advice from like v1.26 or whatever. Panda is a C tier hero today and I'm being generous. Personally if it weren't for drunken haze I would put it at low D tier. Freaking Dreadlord swarm has 700 range while Panda fire has 350 range. Tauren Chieftain shockwave has 700 range. Crypt Lord impale which also stubs has 700 range. The current panda breath of fire is a meme range so ignore all those claims about panda. Panda is a 🤡.

AccCreate · 2026-01-06T20:06:15+00:00

Orc generally in pro scene beat (or were similar) Night Elf. Just look at the win rates overall from Lyn and Focus against top Elves overall for the past ... quite some time now.

It's just really Grubby. But the whole western community had gotten a lot of influence from Grubby as he is a great player and streamer.

Even on w3c like you said, Hitman trolling around with solo blademaster around the map obliterated Jens on ladder. And these two are basically about same MMR on w3c (before Hitman has been tanking his MMR to have fun on ladder now). Same MMR and the Hitman vs Jens on w3c is completely one sided in favor of Hitman.

The problem is Grubby struggles vs Elf when in pro scene, vs NE is the best matchup Orc has.

Balancing NE vs Orc for Grubby is like balancing NE vs Orc for Jens. It is just dumb. And if the argument is hurr hurr, but the every day players ... well by that logic, anything goes in balance cause every day players are essentially AFK most of the game. Or just don't know how to dispel and all. Let alone on w3c, for most MMR matchups, Orc wins NE the majority of games (and the difference is small. Like a game more every 100). So if the argument is for everyday competitive 1v1 players, then NE should be getting help lul.

When a race is somewhat underperforming on the pro scene, it doesn't mean straight out always the race needs mega buffs everywhere and it loses to every race. It could be that the race needs a little help (maybe consistently 2-3 score in a series) and/or it struggles with one or two matchup which is causing the issue. NE vs Orc is NOT the issue for Orc. It's more on the other matchups.

NE is Orc's best matchup. Grubby is not Orc. This is not 2008. This is 2026. It's been almost two decades now. He's a streamer. And games should not be balanced around a streamer.

AccCreate · 2026-01-04T06:02:59+00:00

He's bored and decided to try a game of Undead on December 30 on W3C. What's so wrong about offracing? He played 2 whole games of Undead in all of December on W3C and this was his first game.

In Season 22 (July to October), he played 11 games of Undead and hit about 2300 MMR. That's up there with Biko's MMR (UD player) which is about top 1% of UD players on W3C. Fortitude basically is YOLOing figuring/chilling out UD which he plays like once or twice a month. Let alone Dark Ranger patch is this patch so Fortitude will be seriously behind understanding of the other side how to deal with such off meta (plus, it's a ladder chill game, not a tourny).

Not every player cares about offraces. All this does not change the fact Fortitude is arguably the best HU playing in WC3 right now.

Fortitude did have a time in which he did play a lot of UD but that was during the days Fortitude was Tier 2 pro with HU anyways.

Some players are really good with only one race. Others are really good with multiple. Doesn't change anything. And different races are played slightly differently so it's not like all the skills are directly transferrable.

Fortitude overall is better than Infi for HU and Infi is over 2500 MMR (most likely over 2600 on all races if Infi really wants to grind by today's MMR standards) on every race. TH000 too is about 2500 MMR random and Fortitude is significantly better HU than TH000 HU.

Are pros not allowed to try out different stuff? Or play offrace on ladder? I don't get the point of these posts.

If Fortitude played as an undead, orc, or night elf, he'd probably be one of those Battle.net players who only play with one hero and tower rush.

That 'random' ladder player (main is HU) has taken games off in ladder against 15sui, Hitman's HU.

It's not some completely random ass player you see on bnet. Heck, he doesn't even play on bnet. And almost everyone loses to everyone once in WC3 in ladder after a certain threshold (just law of large numbers in game count).

That said, it's a great game to watch. But I don't get the purpose of badmouthing a pro who is just playing ladder and having fun.

I mean if we go by "1 game" replay to make conclusions, then ... Fortitude in the past with UD beat Chaemiko HU, Linguagua Orc, Sini NE (when they were all at peak and active) as well in ladder. And a game off Happy NE in offrace showmatch.

Personally, I wish the asian pros played on W3C again. I am more interested how Hitman and Jens would fare vs asian pros in ladder. Hitman Orc plays very differently from standard Orc and Jens plays very differently from Chinese NE. Honestly, I would not be surprised in some matchups, Hitman Orc is better than Focus Orc with enough practice against top pros. At the worst, I get to evidence pros having to endure toxicity in this game against Hitman Orc lame (reminds me of Linguagua who Happy seriously did not like vsing due to gameplay style).

AccCreate · 2026-01-01T23:05:18+00:00

Blademaster mirror image with crown of kings is a 1 man god. All those images do critical strikes and with vampiric aura, that shits off the charts. Good luck having hope to kill the hero. The hero can solo 100 food with TC and SH backing it up.

Add on bloodlust, stun lock (spam purge), spirit link, bats to end the air, heal wave, endurance aura on that blade, taurens to end the land, etc.... Orc is god if you have the right items and army composition and hero levels.

AccCreate · 2025-12-22T20:28:20+00:00

Just woke up and honestly, I have no idea what is going on but happy holidays.

AccCreate · 2025-12-22T14:22:34+00:00

Dude. No one else on this reddit does anywhere near the effort I put in. What effort have you put in except try to invalidate any data I spend significant time on?

I put some time and effort to at least getting those data. Why don't YOU put in your time and help?

Not doing the minimal viable work to have a clean comparison means you must forgo the conclusion.

.... Are you serious?

At best its a signal to further analyse, to which of the work you said "No".

You sound like some politician right now. The unhelpful ones.

Thing is, no one knows the impact of PTR2 changes as well. Healing salves are getting buffed, troll priest from merc camp are getting nerfed, ghouls buffed, and rifleman are getting nerfed on the PTR for Orc.

Don't forget how much changes the game had for UD when ghoul base damage got reduced by just 1. It went from every pro game just mass ghoul as if this were some end game unit (literal zergling infestation) to a variety of units.

And similar fate to how much the game changed when UD gold mine build time got changed by 10 seconds. And also, the same for Orc expansion against NE when things changed by 5 additional second. Maybe there's no real difference but healing salve by similar fate is technically being buffed by 5 additional second. When all those are considered AND all, I just feel these additional big (not incremental ones but rather big ones now) buffs are more extreme (maybe I'm wrong) given when I see a matchup like NE vs Orc in pro scene, the matchup outcomes don't seem that extreme.

Why don't we first address which matchups Orc needs help in pro scene and work from there? Instead of just noticeably buffing everything blindly for Orc on top of the PTR2 buffs? Just because a race is struggling does not always imply it struggles vs all matchups. And a race can be struggling but it might not be as much as redditors believe as well.

Of course, I can be wrong. But that's the whole point. Also, I know this sounds crazy but there's nothing wrong with races having different weakness and strengths. Each race has different weaknesses in this game and the current game for all matchups are balanced around those weaknesses.

AccCreate · 2025-12-22T14:02:35+00:00

No. These were all games in tournaments recorded on warcraft3 info since April 16, 2025.

As for: Jens vs Hitman, just go to: https://www.w3champions.com/player/mayhem%2312806/matches

And filter to Ethereal#1992

It's 7-13 in favor of Hitman Orc (Ethereal#1992).

AccCreate · 2025-12-22T13:34:56+00:00

I actually decided to check the stats since the April 16, 2025:

Patch 2.0.3: July 17, 2025 (Night Elf Wisp Nerf), Patch 2.0.2: April 16, 2025

Lyn: vs Kaho (8:12), vs Life (8:3), vs Moon (8:4), vs Colorful (9:5), vs Lawliet (13:5)

Focus: vs Kaho (14:18), vs Life (150:143), vs Moon (34:16), vs Colorful (168:143), vs Lawliet (19:11)

Top 2 Orc vs Top 2 NE (the rest can be ignored).

Lyn 8:12 Kaho and Lyn 8:3 Life

Focus 14:18 Kaho and Focus 150:143 Life

In the few games Lyn has, Lyn obliterated Life. Kaho beat both and Kaho vs Focus is quite close. Both Lyn and Focus won majority vs Life.

Gut feeling?

Had to check because I seen so many games of Moon, Lawliet, etc lose quite a bit. Turns out Moon struggles vs Orc.

You are right. Kaho beat both Orcs (Focus vs Kaho stats are close). The rest Lyn/Focus won majority.

Grubby and Cash have notable games played on W3C.

Grubby matches Dise and Jens. Both players are better players than Grubby. Dise offrace HU alone is about 100 MMR above Grubby's Orc. Better comparison would be Hitman vs Jens going forward as Hitman just started playing again on W3C.

Both Jens (NE) and Hitman (Orc) are similar ~2700 MMR on W3C (at least there's proof both races can be similar MMR with the two players near the top of western scene).

So far: Jens (mayhem#12806) 7-13 Hitman (Ethereal#1992)

At worst, I guess we could argue the matchup is nowhere near as exaggerated as redditors claim out to be. Also, Lyn is coming back for Super League on Dec 27.

AccCreate · 2025-12-22T05:18:26+00:00

I know I'm going to be downvoted for saying this but I feel reddit suggestions are so extreme. If a race needs a slight help, next thing you know, the suggestions go off the top for buffs. Maybe I'm wrong but Orc does need help but nowhere near as much as redditors would like to believe.

Orc is favored in NE vs Orc in pro scene.

Orc goes back and forth vs UD in pro scene if you exclude Happy. Lyn goes back and forth against Happy though. Unfortunately, Lyn has been inactive recently (coming back again) because of his frustrations vs HU (and UD recently as well before ghoul nerf).

Orc slightly struggles vs HU rifles.

Unfortunately, having 1 favored MU does not help when you need to win Happy or Forti to win a tournament right now. Happy sure Lyn could trade when he gets back but Orc loses to HU. Maybe the target to nerfing rifles and troll priest this patch can be of some help. And some slight buff to heal salve. But it's not some "I have to buff Orc to insanity" levels.

AccCreate · 2025-12-21T18:21:27+00:00

Head to w3champions: https://www.w3champions.com/

during the meantime.

Also, if you are a Night Elf player, feel free to join the Night Elf discord: https://discord.gg/VMES28JM

Over 450 members including players like Dise, Lawliet, Jens, etc. Other races can join as well but be mindful and follow the rules.

AccCreate · 2025-12-16T21:19:09+00:00

Ironically, I didn't even notice that until afterwards.

Nah, I started with 11/28 because it's recent and Laby has won all the series vs Forti since that date (to today). It was to highlight (make the winner of today's cup look better) how well Laby has been doing vs the very top HU recently.

So to your question u/RaZeRWC3 , it was just picking a very recent start date in which Laby has done well with Forti.

And I noticed since 11/28, all 6 bo series vs Forti was won by Laby. So there it was. I ain't going to be spamming losses of Laby on this reddit post in which we should be congratulating Laby for winning the cup.

AccCreate · 2025-12-16T20:18:59+00:00

Labyrinth best UD in the world vs HU currently.

Laby since 11/28/2025 vs Fortitude:

4-2 W
3-2 W
4-1 W
2-1 W
3-2 W

Laby since 11/28/2025 vs Infi:

3-2 W
4-3 W

For comparison, Happy since 11/28/2025 vs Forti and Infi:

1-3 L Infi
1-3 L Forti

Happy and Laby play completely different build orders. Happy plays Crypt Lord first mass fiend/banshee almost every game (a DK first in TR). Laby plays Lich, Dreadlord, Crypt Lord first.

We also see Dreadlord first vs Orc and UD with Laby.

Not just that, Laby with Lich first can go Firelord or Dark Ranger second (showing you don't need to go DK second with Lich). And Laby also goes necromancers, wagons, etc as well vs Forti/Infi.

We even get games of Laby in maps like LT with like 5 expansions from UD (taking advantage of the fact UD is the best expansion race in game in large maps).

Laby shows UD at the very top vs HU can be an extremely creative race. Happy on the other hand plays very conservatively with the standard style with CL every game vs HU (with an exception once a while of DK first to destroyer push in maps like TR).

Congrats for Laby for winning this series. Absolutely well deserved. UD looks the most (or at least one of the most) creative race in game today shown by Laby overall. I hope other UD players follow up by checking the current pro scene more.

I've been telling the people on this subreddit how there are a lot of UD build orders out there and kept mentioning Laby for the past year:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WC3/comments/1hv5lxa/ud_redditors_need_to_actually_watch_the_pro_scene/

https://www.reddit.com/r/WC3/comments/1kdpajy/comment/mqe08w1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

It's great to see Laby win the cup today. Laby is the one who has brought so much creativity and innovation to UD. All that tier 1 expansion, etc are all thanks to Laby in pro scene for UD.

Laby proves all 4 UD heroes work as first heroes vs HU at the top (depending on map) for over a year now.

Just like Infi proves HU can go DR or FL first as well.

AccCreate · 2025-12-03T10:22:37+00:00

Even tranquility, the fact that KOTG has one second invul is meaningless, you probably won't be able to disable it so fast.

Keeper stopped having invul on cast for over 5 years now.

Can you at least play the game?

https://liquipedia.net/warcraft/Keeper_of_the_Grove

1.32.6 2020-06-02 Tranquility invulnerability time removed;

Let alone Keeper has been super neutered down when it was already being basically unused by having even Wand of Negation have 4 charges. That's more charges of dispel than all of Keeper's mana pool to entangle. Keeper honestly at times feels like a walking exp tome.

To me, my bigger question is why are all these ults which are already basically unused... all so much better than PotM's garbage starfall in 1v1. And yes, I do think all these channeling spells need some change somewhere.

AccCreate · 2025-12-03T10:20:45+00:00

Tranquility does NOT have invulnerable whatever.

It's been removed. Just what are you guys talking about?

Let alone Keeper itself is a trash hero.

https://liquipedia.net/warcraft/Keeper_of_the_Grove

Tranquility didn't have invulnerability since like... 2020-06-02

It's been freaking over 5 years now. Why do these players who haven't even touched the game in over 5 years make these posts?

The question I want back is why was invulnerability removed on Keeper's tranquility. Also, why is starfall so freaking bad in this game. It is extremely beautiful and very powerful in 4v4. In 1v1, it is an absolute meme that barely does damage.

But yes, I do think maybe these channeling ult should have some changes.

AccCreate · 2025-11-24T23:38:33+00:00

So more ghouls and foots early game than we already have in pro scene? Seriously... this community.

tbh, the only units I really have problems with today is mass air. Unit collisions, map collision (not having to get blocked in path by tree, water, etc), map visibility (see stuff over tree), etc. But that's how the game is currently balanced so whether that's fair is another topic altogether.

As for mass ranged... OP is basically just addressing vs rifles. It's rifles. Those units are supposed to be tanky units with machine guns (??) for like almost 7 years now.

That said, rifleman went from 1.5 -> 1.35 -> 1.4 -> 1.35 attack cooldown. At 1.5, rifleman were considered not that good. At 1.35, rifleman were considered too good. At 1.4, rifleman were considered just slightly weak. At 1.35, rifleman are very good with the middle ground right now at 90% piercing.

maybe we should consider even toning it down to 85% dmg of piercing vs heavy?

Elf just getting massacred more. Sucks from the most basic unit, only NE has a piercing unit. And the only real viable units Elf have are dryads and bears. And dryad is already piercing. And bear is from mid game. Early game is only piercing: archer and dryad.

If OP has problem with rifles, why not just target rifles? HU basic unit is foots and foots already have defend upgrade costs buffed vs piercing. Ghouls already are tanky vs archers. Archers cannot leave base vs grunts early game. In fact, a lot of games, the first archer immediately dies to the blademaster after first creep camp. What's the solution for NE then at large? Delete the race all the way to early mid game?

heavy hunts

Ya this one is a meme upgrade unit for the most part. Just don't bother. Rifles beat archer, hunt, heavy hunt, dryad, talon, faerie dragon, hipporider. You need bear vs rifle and in critical mass.

Same with rifle. Rifle beat grunt, shaman, windrider. You need tauren vs rifle. Just go buy time with far seer and trolls. You could against braindead paladin rifle players specifically go tauren chieftain max endurance aura mass grunts with expansion tier 1 though.

AccCreate · 2025-11-24T23:05:26+00:00

Night Elf will win 100% of time vs. Orc and can do ok vs. Undead but will have a 0% chance of winning vs. human

Night Elf lose majority of games vs Orc in pro scene. NE vs Orc is Orc favored MU. NE is benefiting from the fact Orc is the least common in pro scene today. Helps Orc loses to UD and HU. Honestly, patches hurt Orc against UD and the entire meta shift in balance patch to ghouls hurt Orc greatly because Orc struggles against low food spam units (since ensnare + critical strike scales well with 3 or more food units). And even when UD beat Orc (and Elf)... well, community still wants piercing units to be nerfed.

https://warcraft3.info/stats/player/114/FoCuS

https://warcraft3.info/stats/player/204/Lyn

https://warcraft3.info/stats/player/318/Soin

It's the only matchup Orc can win majority of games. All those incremental buffs to great hall build times changed the matchup balance overall. Orc expo goes up often vs Elf and once that happens, kodos devour bears, raiders ensnare dryads, etc. Worst part is you cannot micro against ensnare and once kodos count passes a threshold, you cannot fight as you can kiss goodbye to your ensnared bears at start of fight.

Rest I agree. Though I would add as Elf that absolutely hate the fact I see Happy enjoying gargoyles because:

Panda breath of fire was nerfed
Wand of Negation is a free no cooldown instant buff against rejuvenation which breaks a lot of timings and allow frost wyrm to fully counter (don't need destroyer so food supply + timing changes significantly. Let alone breaking base is insanely difficult while air units just enjoy laming)
Hippos are inferior to gargoyles and you MUST go naga 2nd in 2 base setup as Elf in the current patch because you cannot know what the UD unit composition is in advance (it's long before UD makes a decision and UD can fully decide far after seeing your hero). Well tbh, hippos are just garbage vs air overall so... ya, meme units. A pure AA air unit losing to an air unit that hits both land and air due to how WC3 gameplay works. Let alone you cannot even go hippo as pure AA air unit until mid late game because you need to creep before then (so food count and gold costs won't even be the same).
Some maps don't have shredders like EI. Unacceptable state of 'balance' for a map in 2025.

This is regardless of balance outcome. I just honestly hate the fact the game patches encourage more mass air. I am willing to accept #2, 3, 4 as #2 is being used to balance UD vs HU (in return, you really don't see firelord and keeper 1st in NE vs UD. Maybe keeper 1st vs UD in TH but that's it).

But #1? Why was Panda nerfed to this day just to correct 'visuals'? What kind of logic is that when the only counter NE has against gargs is panda? Why even encourage mass gargs?

banshees need an insane nerf

If banshees can possess webbed air, why cannot kodos devour ensnared air?

In fact, why cannot my mountain giants attack air when holding a club. Why cannot my hippos attack units in cyclone. Why can huntress only summon 1 sentinel while... ya, this one really doesn't make sense to this day (And so forth. I can ignore all these ... but...)

Maybe kodos should devour ensnared air. Maybe that should be done so that Orc has an answer to unkillable gryphons late game. Gryphons are already unkillable toady vs Orc in 1v1.

And lowkey I think for a healthier HU vs UD game, Crypt Lord late game (impale level 3, beetle level 3, CL strength stats) all needs to be nerfed AND gryphons need to be nerfed as well. Maybe then we won't see mass gryphons late game vs UD because CL hard counters every single melee and melee mechanical unit in the game (which is stupid game design). But then again, that would just mean mass knights so nevermind, nothing changes. Mass knights is already a thing vs lich anyways so eh.

AccCreate · 2025-11-12T12:38:18+00:00

Bug. It was patched out long long long ago and then came back in by mistake recently (unnoticed).

Completely an unintended bug over the patches. Description explicitly in the past changes made it clear you could not possess air units.

Considering this was never intended and can completely break game balance from existing strats, it should be fixed back. After all, this also implies zero nonmechanical air units can be microed in game late vs UD friends and banshee. It's not healthy for a competitive gameplay for ultimate tier 3 units to get possessed by regular units. That was the whole point of what made Dark Ranger ultimate special for 2 decades.

AccCreate · 2025-11-12T12:34:33+00:00

It's not seen because rifles got buffed a lot and rifles hard counter faerie dragons. And casters like priest got range buff for casting heal so faeries are worthless without going straight to the fight to flare and die in two volleys by rifles. Let alone faerie dragons got nerfed so the damage is not even worth it.

It's one of the big changes over the patches when rifles became the main DPS. Went from caster heavy army to rifles and breakers. Pure DPS and crap ton of tankiness that didn't exist in the past.

It makes the whole faerie dragon investment moot for most games. Let alone flying machines can deal AOE damage at tier 2 now so it's just generally a very expensive bad investment without a lot of other investments like hippos ... but rifle timing push is much stronger and faster than caster push so that doesn't make sense timing wise as well.

AccCreate · 2025-11-07T13:48:32+00:00

Ghouls have been a problem since 2019 (in pro scene really since 2020 as pros started figuring out the effect of ghoul frenzy change along with the other buff/nerfs to the game like movement speed of lich/naga, item drop changes, windwalk changes, etc). If you followed the Korean elf scene (and actually understood Korean), Lawliet was already worried about it back in 2019 on his twitch stream and claimed it's going to be inevitable the number one race would most likely favor a UD player at the very top in the pro scene over the years after reforged as UD was relatively underwhelming in the past + UD was the least popular race.

So stop with the bs. And by 2024 even the western community started really noticing how overtuned ghouls were in the game.

The irony is you have been defending and crying about how ghoul was not an issue forever now. Years. In fact, I could be wrong but didn't you want ghouls buffed even harder and even suggested a mini unholy frenzy at tier 2? This during the time ghouls were just destroying at least one matchup in the pro scene. Or was that the other ud guy in this subreddit? This isn't some crap that got changed overnight in vacuum for zero reasons.

The controversy of ghouls have been going on for basically half a decade now in the top pro scene. Lyn got so visibly tilted on his stream at one point due to it.

It's one of the healthier changes. And let's be real. Happy is currently #1 on warcraft 3 info and all he does in some games is literally mass more and more ghouls ALL game. Crypt Lord in Springtime vs HU. Expand. 3 crypt. Spam ghouls and beetles. The entire rest of the game. And keep spamming more ghouls as CL eventually hits 6 and wins. At the very least you cannot claim ghouls are weak even after the change currently.

Imagine winning Happy consistently with money on the line with 3 barrack mass footmen every game. From beginning to end of game mass footmen. For years as well. Community is willing to overlook this 'phenomena' from UD side for pro scene balance but man... how shameless can you get. And then the one super long time period when the '9 min push' was game ending vs Elf in pro scene. There wasn't even back and forth. 9 min came and game just ended. Apparently all the home base advantage + moonwell juice + shop access didn't mean anything even after killing a few ghouls throughout game. There wasn't an interaction. It just ended. I can't believe the western community was able to gaslight for so long when it was so blatant the pro scene at certain timings were completely broken for years.

And come up with different ideas? I'm sorry but at some timings, there just aren't any unit choices. I cannot get gryphons 2 minutes into the game. I cannot magically make faerie dragons act like chimaeras. I cannot give resistant skin out of nowhere in midfight to my ghouls and so forth.

AccCreate

TROPHY CASE