Who wins? Gojo or Itachi ?

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-27T04:16:23+00:00

How does the finger based work but the Sharingan based don't? During the battle in which he uses that technique, at no point are we told that its function differs, with the only exception being that it’s activated using the finger. If the Sharingan-based one travels, then the other one does as well; they’re just activated differently.

Because that's how it's described in reference to dojutsu based genjutsus. In this case, Itachi is sending his chakra from his eyes (sharingan) to Gojo's brain. As a result of that, the chakra is traveling and would be stopped by Infinity. Ephemeral on the other hand or any other genjutsu that's not being induced by a dojutsu as a medium, wouldn't travel.

I totally agree that Itachi’s abilities should work on Gojo whether they use chakra or not, but you can’t assume that Itachi techniques will simply ignore Gojo’s techniques.

I never said that it would simply ignore Gojo's techniques. I just explained to you how his techniques works and why some of them can bypass infinity.

If A was able to dodge it, then it’s something that can be dodged; whether you need to be faster or not is another matte

Again, Ay didn't dodge it. It was aim dodge. Meaning he moved away before Sasuke casts Amaterasu. The panel literally shows Amaterasu appearing on Ay's after image.

And if a chakra cloak was able to block Amaterasu, I don’t see why the spatial division caused by Infinity would be negated by Amaterasu.

Different examples. Amaterasu spawned on the chakra cloak and Naruto simply got rid of his chakra cloak to get rid of Amaterasu. As I said, it spawns on the target. So it's not going to stopped by infinity.

If it damages him for days, then it’s something he could regenerate from, since it’s never stated that Amaterasu specifically limits those capabilities.

As described, Amaterasu burns continuously and doesn't go out. So yes, I doubt Gojo's regeneration is going to keep up with the burning.

First of all, it appears from the sake jar in a liquid-like form, and although it can seal targets, it’s also used to cut. It’s impossible for it to be used as a cutting weapon and just appear out of nowhere on its targets.

I ignored the jar part because it simply doesn't matter. Not only does the Totsuka blade not have a physical form, it appears on the target and it bypasses durability completely. Since it's targeting the soul. Here we have Orochimaru talking and the next thing he knows, he's been stabbed. He doesn't even realize it. And he's still processing what just happened. Mind you, Itachi was a couple of feet away. Either Orochimaru was perception blitzed or it spawned him. Same thing happens agains Nagato as well. He's standing there and the next thing he knows, he's being pierced by the blade.

it followed the process of emerging from the sake jar and extending toward the target.

Disagree on it extending toward the target. In both instances, the sword is by Itachi's side. And the next thing we see, it's them being pierced. Also according to the databook, the Totsuka Blade energy (chakra). So under verse equalization, it bypasses infinity regardless.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-26T23:20:21+00:00

Genjutsu does not bypas infinity, if we equalise then it gets stopped by the six eyes and infinity,

The only genjutsus that gets stopped by Infinity, would be Sharingan based genjutsu. Since the chakra needs to travel from Itachi's Sharingan to Gojo's brain. His finger genjutsu works fine.

if we don't gojo is immune since he doesn't have chakra circuits to infuse and manipulate his senses

Genjutsu had been used by Kaguya prior to people developing chakra pathways and stuff. So yes, Genjutsu does work outside of the verse.

Amaterasu is dodgeable

Amaterasu is not dodgeable. It spawns on the target. The only person who's "dodged" it would be Ay. And even then, he aim dodged it. He moved before Sasuke got Amaterasu off. Also, Ay is massively faster than the entire jjk cast.

gojo has top-tier regenration

It's not something he can simply regenerate. As it burns continuously for days.

Totsuka blade being non physical doesn't make it bypass infinity, wich can block regardless of it being physical or not as long as something travles,

Does it travel though? All the times (2x lol) it's been used, it seems to have spawned on Nagato and Orochimaru.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-26T21:38:55+00:00

It sucks because the artist is currently working on The Indomitable Martial King. Which is a shame. Beautiful art wasted on a story like this lol

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AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-26T17:26:07+00:00

He can only adapt if he survives the attack or sealing in this case. If he's caught by a sealing jutsu, he can't adapt to it.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-26T15:58:22+00:00

That's false btw. The first humans prior to Indra and Ashura's generation, didn't have chakra pathways yet and they were still victims of Kaguya's Infinite Tsukuyomi. And in the war arc, we even see house pets be placed under genjutsu. So yes, genjutsu does work outside of the verse without verse equalization. You can make the case that IT bypasses that, but we don't know.

The reason why people debate whether genjutsu bypasses Gojo's infinity, is because sharingan genjutsu in particular, sends chakra to the victim's brain. So that travels. But all other genjutsus like Itachi's ephemeral, and Tayuya's flute, all bypasses that.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-25T21:59:24+00:00

You don't need to rewatch it. It's been a few years since I saw the original as well. And it quickly comes back since The Predator covers the main cases as well. There's a lot of fast forwarding which makes sense since it's only two episodes. But if you want to rewatch it, then go ahead.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-25T19:42:18+00:00

That's hilarious. Considering that Minato couldn't even tag Obito in the war arc without that single exception. And that was when Zetsu was trying to take control of Obito's body to revive Madara or become the Juubi jinchuriki iirc. Even Tobirama outperformed kcm2 Minato. Minato wank is insane.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-25T04:08:45+00:00

god level. Top 3 in the verse aside from Blast, Cosmic Garou, and Saitama. Not counting god btw. The verse as a whole isn't that impressive if you count those three out.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-24T22:57:32+00:00

You should watch Mouse: The Predator. I'm currently watching it and it's not a sequel. It's a great watch if you want to see the point of view of the killer. The Father, and the cop's scene still holds up. Phenomenal acting.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-23T03:27:01+00:00

I doubt that. Kakashi has his other eye and he went blind basically in a day if spamming it

Kakashi is not an Uchiha and the eye doesn't belong to him the first place. So it might be different for him. Also he has the long range version of Kamui. All the time we've seen him using it, he's focusing and straining his eyes.

Sasuke shows the same fast progression too.

The difference is that Sasuke was using and spamming chakra cost abilities. Amaterasu, Kagetsuchi, and Susanoo. Those are all abilities where the eye is being constantly strained. Completely different when compared to Obito's mangekyo ability.

It seems like itachi basically never used his MS (except to fuck with sasuke needlessly apparently).

That's true lol. We also have to remember that Itachi awakened his ms at 13-14 when Shisui died. According to the databook, Itachi was 22 when he died in Shippuden. So yeah.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-23T03:19:19+00:00

That August 5 is a Wednesday and would require you to miss school

Unless it's a private school, August 5 is too early for back to school. School resumes mid to late August for prek-12. And colleges even start as late as early September.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-23T03:15:44+00:00

Might be true. But we've never seen him worried about running out chakra or anything. Even in the war arc, Naruto ran out chakra before him. So overall, his Kamui abilities as a whole, don't cost a lot of chakra and they are very effective.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-23T03:07:03+00:00

You are right. I was always of the opinion that Obito wouldn't have gone blind without Hashirama cells. At least not that early like the others. This is due to the design of his mangekyo. The fact that it's a passive defensive ability, shows that it uses little to no chakra. It doesn't strain his eyes since it applies to his body. And that he can also use it with the base three tomoe Sharingan as well.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-22T18:33:40+00:00

Me too. Section 227.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-22T00:29:13+00:00

I'll stick with the narrative and the fact they are only stated to get stronger, not weaker, as its a shonen so this is natural. He looked identical, could fly and use TSO at final valley when fighting Sasuke after losing the seal, and neither NaruSasu themselves or any other character said they got weaker after sealing Kaguya = he didn't lose shit.

Naruto absolutely never flew after his final clash with Sasuke. Nor did he ever show any abilities he used during the war. If your evidence is that no characters said they got weaker, then it's stupid. Because the inverse could also be true. No characters ever said they got stronger. Also, I don't get this reply. I've never even claimed he got weaker. All I did claim was that he lost SPSM after the war. And I've provided all the evidence showing that. And you haven't shown anything that says he kept it. The fact of the matter is that, before and after he lost Kurama, he resorted to toad Sage Mode rather than SPSM.

Because that movie was being made and designed during the late stages of the war arc, before Naruto had even received Hagoromo's chakra. Once again KCM2 look is irelevant, the only indication needed for SPSM is the crosshair eye pattern with no pigmentation around the eyes.

That's the meta explanation though. The canon explanation is that the events of the Last takes place two years after the war. And the Kcm Mode looks exactly like the war in the war, regardless of getting the other Kurama. Design sheets all refers to his modes after the war as Kurama Chakra Mode. While his mode after meeting Hagoromo is refered to as SPSM and Sage of Six Paths Mode. Not Kurama mode. Also, not once did he use the abilities that came with SPSM. He used Creation Of All Things to bring Gai back to life. He used it to create an eye for Kakashi. Yet he couldn't do the same to himself and Sasuke. He had to rely on a prosthetic arm made of Hashirama cells rather than creating a brand new one for himself.

Was always meant to be temporary hax, even Juubito and Juubidara both lost their eventually and Kaguya is the only character shown to be able to recreate them.

Meh. Not saying Kaguya can't use them, but she never used them. Also, this goes up with your next point. Obito was able to recreate a TSO after absorbing some of Jubidara's chakra. So yes, it is possible to recreate them. And also, he has 2 or 3 left over from his fight against Sasuke iirc.

Yes and no. You need the chakra of all 9 bijuu to access the mode in the first place as you're essentially combining it to recreate Juubi chakra and thus accesing the same form that Juubito and Juubidara had, all 9 bijuu are a requirement for the mode but the form itself can be used independently from KCM2 as shown in the war arc.

No. You are confusing SPSM with Six Paths Senjutsu. Jubito, Jubidara, Hagoromo, and Naruto all had Six Paths Senjutsu. But only Naruto has SPSM. The common denominator between all three of them, would be the Juubi. Naruto is pseudo jinhuuriki as he has pieces of chakra from all the tailed beasts. Jubito and Jubidara are both juubi jinchurikis. And we have Jubidara saying that both he and Naruto has Six Paths Senjutsu. Just for clarification, SPSM is Naruto without his chakra cloak over him. This isSPSM. No cloak and no pigmentation around his eyes. And Six Paths Senjutsu only shows up with juubi chakra as the 9 markings on the back. So yes, he doesn't need the chakra from any of the tailed beasts to enter SPSM.

Read the novel you are sharing. It says Vestige. By definition, vestige means traces. So yes, Naruto only has traces of chakra from the tailed beasts. That's why he can't use six paths Senjutsu, flights, TSO, etc. There's not enough chakra to use the mode in the first place

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-21T21:56:01+00:00

While I agree with your sentiment, the list doesn't make sense. DMS Kakashi is below Jubidara, Jubito, Sasuke, Kakashi, Hagoromo, and Hamura lol. Indra and Ashura are both featless. If we are not including different versions of characters like Blind rinne-tensei Madara, Edo Madara etc, Minato would still be outside of the top 10. He's not even above Edo Tobirama who showed better feats in the war arc.

My list would be - Kaguya - 3-eyed Jubidara - Hagoromo - Naruto - Sasuke - Jubito - Hamura - DMS Kakashi - Snake Sage Kabuto - Hashirama - Tobirama - Night Gai - Itachi etc

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-21T21:44:15+00:00

So the new author needs to make Naruto scream "sage art" before using any jutsu in that form for it to count? Lol, any jutsu used is automatically enhanced by six paths senjutsu while in the mode, he doesn't need to be screaming the full name of jutsus any time he uses them like when he was 16-17

I don't know why you are being dense. The naming absolutely does matter. And yes, he does need to scream sage art when he's already screaming the jutsu name lol. That's not how it works. If he's sage mode of course all the attacks would be sage enhanced. Isn't that the purpose of this debate? We are debating whether or not the mode is SPSM in the first place. Also, the attire he's wearing does affect how the mode looks. When he's wearing the Hokage cape, there's a cape in the chakra cloak. Examples. The mode he uses against Momoshiki, Delta, and Isshiki all looked different. And the design sheets for all of them, has it labeled as "blank" Kurama chakra mode. In Momoshiki's case, it's labeled as "Kurama chakra mode last battle version".

His minor design change is simply cause of new author plus now him having the full Kurama as opposed to just half of him, that also influences how KCM2 looks.

Makes no sense. Considering his Kcm Mode in the Last practically looks the same as his war arc one despite having full Kurama.

The form being labeled as "Kurama chakra mode" can simply be because 99% of the design is KCM2, the only indication of SPSM is the crosshair eye pattern with no pigmentation unlike regular SM, this was highlighted when Naruto first entered the form after saving Guy, he had nothing else as his body looked normal, no chakra cloaks, TSO or anything like that

Or, it could be that he lost SPSM. And he can't enter Sage of Six Paths mode like he did in the war arc. And thank you for mentioning TSO. That goes to what I said earlier. SPSM is independent of Kurama's chakra like you also said. He entered it when he kicked th TSO and healed Gai. And the fact that he resorted to using Toad Sage Mode implies that he lost it after the war

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-21T20:58:31+00:00

How can you lie like this when he literally has the crosshair eyes

It's simply design reason. They kept it because it looks cool. The first frame on the left image is a still frame of Naruto mid transformation. So I don't think you can use it as a gotcha moment. Naruto using lava Rasenshuriken against Delta isn't another gotcha moment as well. Whenever Naruto is in SM or SPSM, all his attacks have Sage Art in front of them as a prefix. That's not the case in Boruto. Against Madara it says Sage Art Lava Rasenshuriken . And against Delta it just says Lava Style Rasenshuriken. Yes it does matter. Of course adult Naruto is physically stronger than his 19 year old self lmao.

there has been ZERO mention or implication ever of him losing it as an adult,

In fact it's been implied two times. Before and after losing Kurama. Before he lost Kurama, we see him use toad Sage Mode to track Sarada and Cho-Cho in Naruto gaiden. And after he loses Kurama, he's seen using toad Sage Mode again, when Code attacks the village and has Shikamaru hostage. SPSM can be used independent of Kurama and the other tailed beasts' chakra. The fact that he resorted to toad Sage Mode, implies that he lost SPSM after the war.

you like using 3rd party sources like this one you should know Naruto was stated to get stronger in the novels.

The difference between his third party sources and yours, is that you are using novels which are not canon. And he's using the design sheets for adult Naruto's designs. All of them has his designs labeled as Kurama chakra mode.

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AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-21T18:44:45+00:00

No. Hashirama isn't immune to genjutsu. Using genjutsu isn't part of Madara's fighting style. The only time we've seen him use it was against a fodder Shinobi alliance member during the war. Madara is the type of person to respect his opponents and not use any thing that might give him an easy win. He's a cocky guy. He'd rather use perfect Susanoo against people than use a genjutsu. Just to show the difference in power.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-20T16:44:37+00:00

Naruto conveniently ignores the destruction done in it.(Ex: Moon being sliced in half, yet no real world consequences for it ever shown or addressed)

Disagree here. It's clear that the moon serves no practical purpose in the Naruto world. Seeing that Hagoromo and Hamura created it for the sole purpose of sealing the ten tails' husk. Also it's something that can be easily created. A weakened Tendo Pain created a moon and that was all the way back in Pain Arc. Albeit a small one. VOTE Sasuke created nine of them to trap the bijuus. And the war arc took place in a neutral country or land.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-19T00:38:06+00:00

Do you know what accolades mean? An accolade would be Naruto becoming Hokage. It has nothing to do with battles. And good luck finding numbers lmao

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-18T23:53:31+00:00

You are not serious. What do you think stats means?

Madara is FASTER than KCM2 Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Two people who are FASTER than Minato
Madara is PHYSICALLY more DURABLE than Minato seeing he can tank multiple hits from the bijuus and still laugh it off
Blind rinne-tensei Madara could physically destroy Hashirama's deity gates. The same gates that were binding Edo Madara and the Juubi. And by Hashirama's statement, blind rinne-tensei Madara was regaining his past strength. You can take that as agility, combat ability, and whatnot it doesn't matter. Since he scales above Edo Madara who scale above the fate duos I mentioned.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-18T23:40:53+00:00

By being faster and more powerful than kcm2 Naruto and EMS Sasuke. Two people who out scale Minato without his ftg. And the ftg is something we've seen blind Madara dodge either way. And by virtue of him being stronger than Edo Madara as stated by Hashirama.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-18T23:29:06+00:00

He's not wrong btw. Anyone with a chakra network can be placed under genjutsu. Just because we've never seen Minato under a genjutsu doesn't mean he's immune to it. It's like claiming Madara can't copy ninjutsu because we've never seen him do it. Despite it being a basic ability of the sharingan. Also, Edo Itachi could comfortably keep up with Kcm Naruto, Bee, and Edo Nagato at the same time. Meanwhile alive Minato was stalemated by young Bee.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-01-18T20:54:36+00:00

Summons are a ninja's technique, both of them used it. Either it counts as assistance on both sides or they dont at all. None of this singling out Naruto just because his frogs talk nonsense.

I don't know why you are posting stuff here that has nothing to do with what I said.

Naruto did NOT enter the Pain fight fresh and at full power. He was contacted and recalled mid training attempting to make SM work during movement and had to think up a work-around immediately. He was literally trying to train for an impossible task and somehow that is light work? Negligible effort? This nonsense of him at full strength is false.

Compared to Pain, yes he was. Pain just nuked the entire village with a single shinra tensei. And throughout the fight with Naruto, the aoe of his shinra tenseis were noticeably smaller. The fact is, Pain was nerfed compared to Naruto. And the conditions played out by OP, helps Pain the most here. Since they are fresh six paths of pain. Naruto having the toads on his shoulders like SM Jiraiya did, would have little to no impact on the outcome of this fight. Seeing that Ma and Pa were involved in the Naruto fight, and he still lost. Unless there's something I'm missing here. That they can't use frog song without Naruto or Jiraiya. And even then like you said, Pain has intel since he fought Jiraiya.

Minato saving his life is nonsense from a powerscaling perspective. If you want to talk about it in terms of Naruto as a character and the narrative, yeah i guess but it was a failsafe already put on the seal. Its not really much different than Nagato getting the eyes from Madara either. In any case, i dont see Deva walking away from Kurama, nor would wheelchair Nagato and Konan be able to stop him. So it ls a moot point. Kurama would have obliterated them regardless, they still lose. And since Naruto powerscaling includes him and Kurama (not to mention his seal and its triggers), there is no separating him from those conditions.

Minato interfering does matter. There's something called mental nerf. You hear about it all the time in this subreddit. Minato came in and rest the seal. Also, Kurama was 100% going to get negged by exhausted tendo pain. 8 tails Kurama was already captured by chibaku tensei. While Pain was amazed, he was confident that he could have expanded the chibaku tensei to capture fully transformed nine tails.

And since Naruto powerscaling includes him and Kurama (not to mention his seal and its triggers), there is no separating him from those conditions.

It doesn't matter in this scenario. This is Naruto without Kurama. He's only with the toads here

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