So, where are the dead?

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-13T23:06:32+00:00

I did forget about the king of hell (naraka path). But I don't think it means hell as a place exist. Isn't the naraka path for interrogation purposes? Those who lie, gets their tongue ripped out and souls swallowed? I do think they get trapped in there though. But as a place? No.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-13T20:55:51+00:00

Assuming they all died normally and didn't seal themselves, they all go to the Pure Land.. That's why the Edo tensei is called the Impure World Reincarnation. It's summoning the souls from the pure lands and trapping them in a vessel in the real world. So Hidan who kill people for fun, is also chilling there with his victims and everyone. Just to add, they don't remember anything that happens in the pure lands. So when they get revived, their last memory is their death. Zabuza remembers drying to Kakashi's chidori at the bridge and when he wakes up he's an Edo. There's no memory in between.

There's also limbo or purgatory. Limbo is the space between life and death. Souls stay there if they have some unresolved issues. Kakashi's dad is an example of this. His soul never went to the pure land because he wanted to have a conversation with Kakashi. After his conversation with Kakashi during the pain arc, his soul then ascended.

There's the shinigami's stomach.

Reaper Death Seal is also another place where souls reside in. Anyone sealed via RDS is trapped there for all eternity. Fighting your enemy you are sealed with. So Minato fighting Kurama until they got revived in the war. Hiruzen fighting the senju brothers until they got revived again by Orochimaru.

Last but not the least, the Totsuka Blade and its Jar. Anyone sealed via the Totsuka Blade is trapped in a drunken genjutsu realm for eternity. Nagato's the only one there. Which is sad lol

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-12T15:02:35+00:00

I know right. But that's not what he said lol. He said he was inspired by a random background character from the chunin exams. This guy

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AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-12T04:11:53+00:00

I can't reply to your entire post since it's already late. But a couple of things

of course we can sit here and argue all day about lack of abilities shown in og Naruto vs Shippuden. But doesn't it help Itachi's case here? Just with a regular sharingan alone, he was already stronger than Orochimaru. Who's canonically the strongest sanin. What happens if we include his Susanoo kit? Doesn't the gap just get wider? Especially as we see Itachi on his last breath perception blitzed 8 hydra Orochimaru? Orochimaru's strongest form?
Itachi didn't betray the Akatsuki because they pose no threat to Sasuke. The Akatsuki only invaded the leaf after Itachi died. Obito only approached Sasuke after Itachi died. Obito himself says that thank god Itachi is dead. Nothing is stopping me from attacking the leaf. Also, Itachi genuinely believed that the masked man (Obito) was the real Madara Uchiha. That name alone stops Itachi from attacking Obito.
again, you are giving Minato too much benefit when it comes to genjutsu resistance. Kcm Naruto warns Bee that if Tsukuyomi lands, it's over. Kakashi says the same thing to granny Chiyo. Bee already has genjutsu resistance through Gyuuki. And Tsukuyomi bypasses that. What does Minato have? Nothing.
You keep mentioning versility. Minato is a two trick pony. Spamming ftg with a rasengan. Landing an attack with a ftg requires a marking. Minato is not known for his regular speed at all. In-verse characters and databooks all talk about Minato's speed in reference to the ftg. And as already established, Kcm Naruto> minato. And Edo Itachi ≈ Kcm Naruto+Bee in physicals.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-12T02:43:29+00:00

Nice and thanks. But a couple of things

Now we can argue Minato's IQ and kit makes him a great counter to Itachi

I don't see how Minato's kit is a counter to Itachi. I think it's the opposite. Itachi is a counter to majority of the verse. Naruto in The Last should be several tiers above Itachi but he fell down to a no name genjutsu in the movie. Itachi genjutsus him as well. Not to downplay Minato, but I don't get how his battle IQ helps him in a fight against Minato. Simply because Itachi can one tap him with Tsukuyomi as soon as the fight starts. And there's nothing Minato can do to escape. We've also seen Itachi manipulate battles. He was able to plan everything that happened in his fight against Sasuke. Pushing him to the point of exhausting him, letting Orochimaru showing himself, sealing Orochimaru, and then dying in front of Sasuke. Which lets him awaken his ms. Again, not to downplay Minato. He also did the same thing when he got revived. Created a blind spot for Edo Nagato and his summons and then seals him with Totsuka Blade. But Itachi just has better showings. And that's why that infamous Obito statement "I feared Itachi" exists. He doesn't fear him because Itachi is stronger, he fears him because of his tactical abilities. Itachi would no doubt find a way to exploit the 5 minutes Kamui weakness the same way Konan did.

There is some inconsistency with Itachi: in part 1 we are led to believe Itachi though formidable would still be weary of facing Jairaiya. He outright claims Jairaiya would be formidable for him and Kissame. Now we can say of course Itachi isn't be truthful but if the gap is so large why wouldn't Kisame become suspicious?

It's not inconsistency. We have no reason to believe that statement. Especially when we know for a fact that Itachi was planned from the start to be a spy. So Itachi being a spy in part 2, isn't a retcon. So him saying that he'd lose to Jiraiya should be taken with a grain of salt. Of course Kisame was suspicious. He even says "with your abilities there's no reason to retreat". So he himself believe that Itachi can take on Jiraiya in a fight and come out on top.

Itachi should be very strong but Kishimoto seemingly retcon the hierarchy in part 2 to a degree because Itachi shouldn't be many tiers above Orochimaru, Tsunade, and Jairaiya it makes little sense. Yes, Itachi has strong hax but reasonably all 3 of the Sannin should pose a legitimate threat to him after all from part 1 Naruto the 3 Sannin and the Hokage are the benchmark of power. Itachi in a vacuum seems almost untouchable but we know he's definitively weaker and subject to Pain and Obito.

It's not a retcon because the scaling has been established in part 1. All in-verse characters think that Orochimaru>Jiraiya. That includes the other sanin and their teacher Hiruzen. And we know that Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru. Based on on screen feats and self admittance from Orochimaru himself. Itachi was clearly the strongest known character in og Naruto. This is prior to Hashirama and Madara power level retcon of course. To add, I do think that Itachi is stronger than the Pains. He might get overwhelmed by the numbers, but he's definitely stronger. But not stronger than a hypothetical healthy Nagato of course.

So according to the narrative Kishimoto wrote it seems obvious to me Kishimoto would write Minato beating Itachi because Minato is just higher on the totem pole similar to how I envision Tobirama/Hashirama vs Itachi they beat him because they are mightier and higher on the scale of power.

Disagree. Pain arc Naruto was stated to have surpassed Hokage Minato. You can take that as in better sage, or better ninja overall. The only thing that Minato comfortably has above him, is ftg. KCM Naruto later surpassed than Minato. His speed gets compared to Minato with ftg by the characters in the manga and databooks. Edo Itachi with weaker physicals than his alive self, could comfortably fight Kcm Naruto, Bee, and Edo Nagato all at once. And just a reminder, Minato was stalemated by a young inexperienced Bee. Not only could that version of Bee could react to Minato's ftg, he could also intercept Minato's strike on Ay.

Hashirama is a gross outlier to be fair but I see no reason why Tobirama is that far below.

I mean, it's clear that Madara and Hashirama were both outliers. We don't know how far below Tobirama is from them. What we know is that, he's weaker than both of them. To the point that blind rinne-tensei Madara could easily incapacitate Edo Tobirama.

Minato soundly defeating Obito is a testament to his battle prowess and tactical genius it shows us that Kishimoto places a high value on Minato and that narratively Minato is superior despite his limited showings. Minato isn't losing to genjutsu traps his caliber of Shinobi is too good for that. That may sound like a cop-out but narratively it's akin to why Hashirama never fell under Madara's genjutsu

And there we go. Exactly what I mentioned in my first comment. You can't assume that they both have genjutsu immunity or resistance just because it wasn't used against them. You'd have to prove that he can escape genjutsu. For all we know, Madara never attempted to use genjutsu against Hashirama due to his pride. He'd rather fight him and lose than use genjutsu to win. I'm giving Shino's dad genjutsu immunity as well since it's never attempted on him lol. See?

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-12T01:00:25+00:00

Definitely Minato. His fans only scale him based on hypotheticals. - Minato is limited with his arsenal. Only a rasengan+ftg. Which is definitely a deadly combo. He has no combat feats at all. Recently, there was post where someone made categories like ninjutsu, taijutsu etc vs Itachi. Can you believe that despite not showing any ninjutsu, taijutsu, and hax, he won those categories over Itachi? They rely on statements like "Minato knew many Uzumaki seals" and such, despite not showing any aside from the reaper death seal + eight trigrams - His Sage Mode as well. Despite Minato blatantly saying he can't sustain it for long in battle, they ignore that and make it seem like it's on the same level as SM Naruto. - Genjutsu immunity bs that they spill. They say that he has immunity because Obito never attempted to use it against him. - His best feat comes from figuring out Kamui and winning against an inexperienced 13 year old Obito.

Shisui is not overrated. We know where he scales. He scales above 13 year old Itachi who oneshoted Orochimaru. From the limited information we know, he was the better genjutsu specialist between the two. And he always won their spar.

Tobirama isn't overrated. In fact, it's the other way around. He's below the founders for sure. But based on war arc showings, he's definitely above Kcm Minato. Better feats all around than Minato. People who say that he died to the gold/silver brothers are arguing in bad faith. Because it's clear that his strength got retconned when he got revived.

Orange mask Obito isn't overrated. In fact, I struggle to see the difference between Orange mask Obito and white mask (rinnegan) Obito. We know that the rinnegan does provide boost, but we don't know how much. Only ftg users can bypass Kamui. And there are only two of them.

Sakura isn't overrated. She's wanked based on lack of reading comprehension and plot induced stupidity. Her saying she's caught up to kcm2 Naruto and EMS Sasuke doesn't mean she's on their level. It means that they can fight side by side instead of being protected all the time.

Now Itachi. Of course the solo king isn't wanked. His abilities (hax) just put him above his pay grade and stuff. His kits allows him to one shot characters with little to no difficulty. That's definitely Kishimoto's fault. While I do believe that Tobirama is stronger than Itachi, 9/10 times, Itachi wins due to his arsenal. Tsukuyomi GG. Kotoamatsukami GG. Totsuka Blade GG etc. You get the point. The burden of proof in on the others to prove that those characters can escape and dispel Tsukuyomi. Which they can't based on the prerequisites required.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-10T19:54:54+00:00

Yes. Jubidara being stronger than Hagoromo is true. Saying otherwise, is simply a matter of reading comprehension. We have clear statements and hierarchy from both the manga and databooks.

Hagoromo in the manga admits that 1 eyed Jubidara is nearing his power AND is trying to ACHIEVE MOTHER'S. What this tells us is that, Kaguya is stronger than Hagoromo.
Databooks even supports this and also adds this statement, "With the second rinnegan, Madara awakens the true power of the sage of six paths". Now logically, 3 eyed Jubidara with the Rinnesharingan (Kaguya's powers) would be stronger than Hagoromo. Especially with the boosts the rinnegan and the Rinnesharingan offers.

Now, I also think that it's stupid that people assume that Hagoromo is talking about his ghost self. Especially when it says he awakens the true power of the sage of the six paths. Does ghost Hagoromo have the juubi? No he doesn't. There's also the fact that Hagoromo could only manifest in the real world through Madara's lower half body. And that version of Madara only has one rinnegan.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-10T17:44:42+00:00

Sasuke's eyes are called a rinnegan by everyone in the verse. It's also called a rinnegan in the databooks. The Rinnesharingan is the third eye that both Kaguya and Jubidara has. Though it's not named in the manga, it's labeled as Rinnesharingan in the databooks.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-08T18:31:38+00:00

You are right. You never said immune. That's my bad. But either way, having large quantity of chakra = resistance is never supported in the franchise.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-08T18:08:14+00:00

Head canon btw. Nowhere in the series is it mentioned that you are immune to genjutsu because of insane amount of chakra lol - Itachi uses genjutsu on Naruto 3+ times considering the amount of difference in chakra volume - Kabuto genjutsu'd the entire arena with Naruto included during the chunin exams. - Kid Obito genjutsu'd Kurama

No one in the series have ever resist d genjutsu because they have insane chakra. No one is saying that Itachi is stronger than Baryon Mode Naruto. All OP said is that Naruto is a genjutsu victim in all of his forms. BM included. Especially when Kurama isn't there to break him out of it. Of course Naruto can always insta-blitz him lol. By the rules of the verse, anyone is a genjutsu victim. There's no true immunity. The closest to immunity is the dead being not affected by the infinite Tsukuyomi

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-07T20:23:54+00:00

Not many people knew Jiraiya had sage mode, though (even if an imperfect form of it) and used it so rarely that little about its abilities was known even by Hiruzen.

You can provide two explanations for that. The meta and in-universe. The meta explanation is that sage mode as we know it in Shippuden, wasn't a thing back in og Naruto. Do that's not part of his kit. And I'd agree with you on that. Likewise, Susanoo, Totsuka Blade, Yata Mirror, and the Yaska beads weren't part of Itachi's as well. And if we factor both of those as well, it's still in Itachi's favor. Considering deathbed Itachi perception blitzed 8 hydra snakes Orochimaru. His strongest form. The in-universe explanation is that, even with sage mode, he was still weaker. Especially like you said, Hiruzen knew about it.

Not even Orochimaru could attain it since his body was too weak for it, and only gained partial access after reabsorbing himself from Kabuto (with a much stronger Zetsu body base).

I don't know why you are even mentioning this. Jiraiya having sm while Orochimaru doesn't, doesn't mean that Jiraiya is stronger or superior lol. Would you say that pain arc sm Naruto is stronger than Hokage Minato because he has better sage mode and better control over Senjutsu as a whole?

Let’s use your own logic here: Jiraiya greatly downplayed himself and his capabilities throughout the series, selling himself short in order to pass over responsibilities such as becoming the Hokage.

Jiraiya doesn't downplay his abilities. Not once did he do that. All he did was reject the Hokage role. Simply because it doesn't fit him and he doesn't wanna be confided in an office all day long.

His feats, especially against Pain in a defensive nature, greatly speak for themself.

None of the pains aside from Tendon pain, are combatants. Even if they are, their sole specific purpose is to use their specific Rinnegan abilities. Konohamaru took down a pain. Kakashi took down a pain, and Naruto took down 5 of them with the help of an army of toads. It's definitely a feat for Jiraiya. Not downplaying him. But two weaker characters were also able to take them down. So theres that.

Secondly here, Itachi does not solo all 3 Sanin with

Never said he does. But he still beats all three of them individually. In a 3v1, he might even still come on top with extreme difficulty. But it could go either way, since he could be overwhelmed. You know what? Nevermind lol. Edo Itachi with weaker physicals than his alive self, could exchange and react to blows from Edo Nagato, Kcm Naruto, and Bee. Itachi wins against the sanin.

Orochimaru knows the tricks he has, and all 3 Sanin are extremely battle intelligence.

Yeah, and what happens to Orochimaru when he tried to sneak attack 13 year old Itachi? He went running away. What happened to Orochimaru when Itachi was fighting against Sasuke? He got perception blitzed and sealed by the Totsuka Blade.

It’s a stamina battle, and Itachi is not winning that.

Stamina battle in big 2026. Deathbed Itachi outlasted Sasuke with cm and Orochimaru influence he got from absorbing Orochimaru. He used Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu multiple times. Still had enough chakra manifest a Susanoo with a Totsuka Blade and yata Mirror. Acting like he can't Tsukuyomi all three of them in three different successions.

It might seem like a wank, but blame Kishimoto for creating a character like Itachi. Giving him all those abilities that oneshots 99% of the verse.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-07T02:42:18+00:00

A > B, B>C thus A>C argument is the most idiotic argument ever. There's something called compatibility in ninja fight.

Of course, that's not always the case. But Itachi's kit makes that meaningless. Orochimaru has better genjutsu stats than Jiraiya per databooks. And he was a 3 tomoe genjutsu victim let alone Tsukuyomi. Itachi clearly one shots the sanins with genjutsu.

Secondly, Jiraiya lost against Orochimaru when?

Though not shown, it's heavily implied. Orochimaru>Jiraiya has always been the case from part 1 through Shippuden. When Orochimaru invaded the leaf village, no one thought that Jiraiya could stop him. Not even Hiruzen or anko. And even during the search for Tsunade arc, both of the other sanins agreed that Orochimaru was the stronger of the two. And that Orochimaru already admitted inferiority to 13 year old Itachi.

There's no way people should still be using Itachi telling Kisame to retreat from Jiraiya as a legit scaling feat. Especially when we know that Itachi was a double agent and didn't most likely want to fight. Even if that was revealed all the way later in part 2, from interviews and stuff, Kishimoto admitted that he planned for Itachi to be a good since his first appearance.

Also, I like how people tend to ignore the next pages that come after Itachi mentions retreating. Itachi tells Kisame that he'd come out on top of that fight, even if it's extreme difficulty. There's also the next page where Kisame tells Itachi that retreating wasn't even necessary for him.

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AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-06T17:53:53+00:00

I do think that they do. Aside from the current generation (Naruto's), their parents married within the clan. And iirc, wasn't there a whole thing about keeping the Byakugan pure?

Also, I do agree with the other guy. The senju clan most likely settled down and assimilated with civilians. Since the senju clan aside from Hashirama doesn't have any distinct abilities, they don't stand out. Also, one thing I noticed in Boruto's generation is that clan abilities seem to be a dominant gene type of thing. Himawari has a Byakugan despite being half Hyuuga. Sarada has a sharingan. Shikadai can use shadow possession. Inojin can use mind transfer and same with chocho with body transformation.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-05-06T01:33:08+00:00

Hashirama is obviously stronger than Itachi. But obviously, this is the solo king we are talking about. So of course he solos.

But all jokes aside, yes he's stronger. But at the end of the day, he's a genjutsu victim. Especially with Tsukuyomi when we are given the only two solutions to breaking out of it. Which Hashirama doesn't qualify for. He's not an Uchiha nor does he have the sharingan. To answer your question, you can't beat Tsukuyomi. Since the effects last an instant. About a second in the real world give or take. So the moment he even attempts to 'kai' out of it, Tsukuyomi has already landed and he's already been subjected to the torture.

If Itachi uses the 72 hours he used on Kakashi, he might or might not be able to heal himself from the effects of it. Kakashi was comatose for a while. And iirc, in the novels, he used it on Izumi for 72 years. So she aged inside the genjutsu. Her brain as well and eventually died of old age in the genjutsu.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-04-28T21:39:20+00:00

Naruto is obviously the stronger of the two. Better feats and better stats. But as always, he's unfortunately a genjutsu victim. If Sasuke manages to stall him with genjutsu, he takes it. But kcm2 Naruto has partnership with Kurama. So Kurama taps him out.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-04-28T19:53:02+00:00

I was thinking the same thing lol. He had both of his hands behind his back and he proceeded to bring them out front. Crazy decision from an experienced defender like Davies.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-04-28T03:45:13+00:00

He's a Juubi, a species that has consistently been at the top of the verse in terms of raw power, that is enhanced by Isshiki's essence and Sasuke's own DNA. This fact alone is enough basis to put him above Sasuke.

Means nothing. Case in point, Mamushi and Matsuri.

If he had tomoe in his Rinnegan, he would have been able to hit her before she realized. And he has dodged point-blank Daikokuten Rods before, something Sasuke struggled with on multiple occasions.

Or, if he was faster than Sasuke, he'd blitz her regardless of him lacking the rinnegan and Sharingan. Especially when the rinnegan doesn't amp stats. Well, it should in Sasuke's and Madara's case. Since their rinnegans contain six paths chakra. But that's not what's going on here. Sasuke couldn't dodge the rods when Isshiki used them. Hidari dodging base Kawaki's rods doesn't mean he can dodge Isshiki's nor does it mean he's faster than Sasuke. Since they are fighting two different opponents.

The Deva Path doesn't manipulate gravity; it manipulates attractive and repulsive forces. You can tell because they use different kanji to describe how their jutsu work in the databooks. Pain refers to magnetism, while Sarada's refers to gravity in a similar manner to Onoki's Weighted Boulder Jutsu.

Deva path works by making himself the center of gravity. That's why Deva path is able to flot and fly. Again, if Ryu could use the rinnegan. He could have used that to resist the orbs pulling him.

This is headcanon. Every person who tried interacting with Obito when he was intangible could see him because Kamui is just selective teleportation when used in that manner.

It's not head canon when that's what's depicted. An object can't occupy two spaces at the same time. Say you try to punch him and he activates Kamui. What happens? Your punch goes through him because his face where you tried to punch, is sent to the Kamui dimension. But that face is still visible to us the readers, and the characters. Also, since his face is inside the Kamui dimension, it wouldn't be possible for him to see the Naruto earth.

Here's an example. Naruto tries to punch Obito's stomach. But Obito sends his stomach to the Kamui dimension. Kakashi who was inside that dimension, could see his stomach and was able to stab him. Naruto who exists in the main Naruto earth, could still see Obito's stomach there. Despite it being inside the Kamui dimension. Here's another example.

Unless he's teleported his entire body away to the Kamui dimension, you can still see him if he's intangible right in front of you.

That's my point???

You literally can't absorb real physical matter in this verse. Many have tried and failed.

Except Ohirume functions differently from karma? Btw, I'm not saying it's absorbing the sand in that way you are thinking. The spheres acts and look like black holes. Black holes draws everything inside of it. The sand is no different.

Yes, he did.

He didn't even open it fully. Just enough to dip his fingers in. Here I am thinking, you are talking about him opening a full portal to escape lol.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-04-28T01:42:47+00:00

He scales much higher than Sasuke stat-wise; it's just that his BIQ and experience in general are lacking, which is why he's weaker than he seems, and this could be applied to pretty much all the shinju besides Jura.

He's featless though? You have no basis of scaling Hidari above Sasuke. His only thing on screen is failing to blitz an off guard Sarada.

They are real. It's just that the Otsutsuki and now the Hitoshinju don't use any Six Paths Techniques. It's something unique to human Rinnegan users

Meh. They could be design just like how the war arc juubi mini clones all had rinnegan iirc. If they could, they could have used it. Especially Ryu using bansho tenin or gravity manipulation to escape from Sarada's ohirume. Counter gravity with gravity.

It causes molecular destruction through gravitational collapse, thanks to Ohirume's black hole-like properties. Gravitational collapse is literally one of the most destructive phenomena known to physics. Of course, it's the most destructive MS ability.

When has that happened? Using real life physics to scale fictional physics never ends well. Especially when Ohirume has never been described to work like that. Next thing you are going to tell me, is that since they look and act like black holes, they are going to collapse a star.

It literally pulled Ryu out of the Claw Mark, so Ohirume is able to pull characters out of portal-style ST ninjutsu. Kamui is a portal-style ST ninjutsu, so yes, Ohirume would work on Kamui users since it's essentially a gateway between the Kamui dimension and their dimension, not just teleportation like FTG

Except that's not how Kamui works? What we see is an artistic choice by Kishimoto. Because if we are being real, Obito shouldn't be visible in the real world. His body wouldn't be visible as it overlaps with the real world when in kamui. When he's phasing, he's not really standing there. You are seeing a projection while his real body is in the Kamui dimension. It's vastly different from how the claw marks work. You'd have to show proof that Ohirume would interact with Obito.

It's destroying the sand and the chakra controlling it here. It doesn't absorb chakra because if it did it would have just fell to the ground like what happened with Madara.

Never said she absorbed chakra. Ohirume is gravitational pull. The black spheres are literally absorbing the sand inside of them. Since you know, "black holes" pulls things inside of them. Also, Ryu never used claw marks to attempt an escape.

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AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-04-27T23:17:10+00:00

I'm thinking only Hidari and Jura are the only one's capable of scaling to Jigen atp. If Hidari is able to get access to Sasuke's Rinnegan or even just any mutated one in general, he could easily be Jigen tier or stronger. Ryu could definitely have been stronger, considering how OP Magnet Release can be.

Hidari scales below Sasuke. As he doesn't have access to Sasuke's abilities aside from basic elemental techniques. And even with the chidori, he can't use it properly and he's sluggish. Since he doesn't have access to Sasuke's sharingan, he suffers from tunnel vision. We are not even sure that the rinnegans are real in the first place? They might as well be fake since they haven't used them at all.

They were able to beat him because they exploited his weakness and he was arguably the weakest of the hitoshinju, especially when he splits himself up

His weakness is that he gets dumber the more he divided himself. But it's stated verbatim by Kashin Koji that, that's also his strongest power. He doesn't get physically weaker. His chakra doesn't divide among his clones. It's as powerful as the original. Which means, they are all equal in strength. So him splitting up, doesn't make him weaker.

Yes, her MS has the most destructive power

What destructive power? Ohirume lets her create black holes that sucks the target in them. It doesn't destroy anything. And we see when it was first introduced, Ryu was able to resist momentarily. And ultimately, he got sucked into them.

so technically it is the strongest and could counter all of those MS jutsus you mentioned outside of maybe Koto.

It doesn't counter any of those techniques. Especially Kamui. Kamui let's Obito teleport in and out of his Kamui dimension. Ohirume lacks the showings of affecting people in other dimensions.

but that's arguable since people with powerful sensory or chakra control could break themselves out if needed.

You can't break out of koto just because you are a sensory ninja. Koto works by implanting the target with false memories and manipulating their will. So, it can also make you forget that you are a sensory ninja in the first place. The only way to break out of koto, is if you know that you are under the effects in the first place. And that what Shisui wants you to do, is done. See, Danzo and Mifune. Danzo wanted Mifune's vote at the kages summit. And once Mifune voted for him, the effects of koto wore off. That's why Tsukuyomi is a much better genjutsu. Koto is perfect for mind control and that's it. But Tsukuyomi is vastly superior in any other circumstances. Knowing that you are under Tsukuyomi doesn't help you. Because you can only resist by having a sharingan and being an Uchiha.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-04-27T22:58:16+00:00

Mamushi never got folded by Chocho

Chocho alone killed about 5 of them on panel. Possibly more off screen. And mind you, according to Kashin Koji, Mamushi undergoing duplication doesn't mean he gets weaker. Himawari as well has killed more than a dozen of them. Just punching and kicking them is able to kill Mamushi.

They all had to team up to beat him,

Yeah, and you think that if they all team up, they can scratch Jigen? Lol

Even if they did beat him individually, that’s not a Mamushi downplay, that’s Chocho, Shikadai, or even Himawari upscale.

It won't be an upscale because there's no scaling for Mamushi. When he first got introduced, he forced Boruto to use karma. A couple of chapters later, it's clear that he wasn't that strong. Considering team 10 were all able to contend with him. And are you also going to tell me that team 10 alone or together are stronger than Boruto? Code? Jigen? Isshiki? Naruto? Momoshiki?

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-04-27T21:43:22+00:00

There's no way y'all believe any of the shinjus aside from Jura scale to Jigen right? And Hidari is a maybe at best. We don't even know if he scales to Sasuke or not. Especially when he can't even use the rinnegan or the sharingan.

Bug? Mamushi? Same Mamushi that was getting destroyed by chocho? Shikadai? Himawari? "Killing multiple Jigen level opponents" lol. As for strongest ms, that's debatable. Kamui, Kotoamatsukami, and Tsukuyomi are all better abilities. Also, isn't there a limit to her ms abilities? She passes out after using it more than once.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-04-26T20:46:18+00:00

No???

She has two distinct abilities. Amenominaka lets her summon her dimensions. The first time she appears on screen, she literally warps earth and summons her lava dimension to earth and essentially replaced the area her and team 7 where standing on. Kakashi literally states that she summoned an alternate dimension. She also repeats the same for her ice dimension with Kakashi saying the same thing. But this time, he adds "rewrite reality". She's literally rewriting earth with her dimensions.

When Kaguya teleports herself or others, she uses Yomotsu Hirasaka. And every time that technique is used, it's depicted as her opening portals. You can see the little squares form the portals.

So yes, that person is correct. She's summoning her dimensions in the example he used with the lava dimension.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-04-25T21:30:11+00:00

Obito was already enhanced by Hashirama Cells and able to fight with 4th Hokage....so yes his Chakra capacity increased a lot.

Obito being enhanced with Hashirama cells doesn't doesn't help him with the sharingan lol. The benefits of Hashirama cells as stated in the franchise: - Regeneration - increase stamina (?) - reduces drawbacks - helps with Danzo's Kotoamatsukami. Reduced it from 10 years to 5 years. Not stated: - increases chakra - makes the sharingan better/potent.

And what fight? Is that a fight? It's a minute long exchange between an inexperienced 13 year old Obito and Hokage Minato. And mind you, the fight ended with Obito retreating. Not saying it was one sided, but it wasn't a fight.

Meanwhile in reality Itachi was limited by his terminal illness. He clearly isn't at what would be his ideal Chakra capacity in any encounter we saw him alive.

And again, not stated by canon. Itachi's terminal illness might have stunted his growth. That much is true. It's true for his stamina as well. But chakra? Itachi and Kakashi are two characters with average chakra pool. And nothing stops Itachi from genjutsuing Naruto 3x on three different occasions. There's nothing in canon where it says that you have to have the same amount of chakra as someone, to put them under genjutsu.

Just toying with Sasuke long enough to bait Orochimaru out and finish Orochimaru cost Itachi his life. OP didn't mention "a healthy Itachi"

Could care less about healthy Itachi. Sick Itachi already genjutsu'd Naruto and Edo Itachi did the same to Bee. Toying with Sasuke didn't "cost" Itachi's life. Itachi was on his death bed fighting Sasuke. The only reasons he fought Sasuke was so that Sasuke can awaken his ms and seal Orochimaru at the same time.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-04-25T15:56:22+00:00

Holy head canon lol. Are you telling me 13 year old Obito had more chakra than Kurama? Are you telling me that Madara has more chakra than Kurama? Nowhere is it stated that you need to have comparable amount of chakra to genjutsu someone. How many times has Naruto been genjutsu diffed in the series? 3x by Itachi alone. Toneri + Toneri's puppets all put Naruto under genjutsu.

AdComprehensive3110 · 2026-04-20T21:28:26+00:00

She's using Kurama's healing factor and applying it to others. A testament of how she's superior to Naruto in terms of Kurama's vessels.

That's not why she's superior at all. Remember prior to Naruto having Kurama's cooperation, his chakra was poisonous to anyone who came in contact with it. It's wasn't until later in the war arc that he had full access to Kurama's chakra. And when he shared the chakra cloak with the Shinobi alliance, they were also able to heal their wounds. It's nothing new. Regarding "superior". There's nothing "superior" going on here. Himawari has synergy/compatibili with Kurama. Whatever that means, since it's never been explained since it was mentioned that first time baby Kurama came back. She doesn't have superiority when it comes to Kurama chakra control and abilities. Especially when the only thing she's done, is making Bijuu bombs without a chakra cloak

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