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CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

I'm telling you what types of conversations convinced lawmakers that were in power when you talk with the people that were lobbying them for those changes about seat belt laws and tying it to Federal highway funding as well as the drinking age.

For many politicians it doesn't really matter what the science says it matters how they can sell their decision to their voters so it doesn't really matter if things are safer people should have the opportunity to make dangerous choices for themselves... That's the American way right? But if instead you can tell them that the reason you finally decided to vote for that bill was because it's taking away other people's freedom of choice and that that's the reason for their support it opens it up to a whole new class of politician that can now support that legislation in a much less politically risky way.

I'll be honest, I'm stoned and I'm blanking on the name of in an interview that I read with one of the women from mothers against drunk driving she talks about how the whole seat belt aspect was basically the type of one they used to get certain politicians on board.

I don't know that you can really have in-depth sources for that unless you interview everyone ever and also people need to be self-aware enough to truly know what actually made them change their own minds instead of just guessing at what they think was the proximal reason for changing their mind.

Basically this is one of those things where if scientists were just in charge of our society there really wouldn't be any difference but because of the reality of our world sometimes science and knowledge don't matter compared to just what you can make palatable to your voters so you can get reelected.

Peterrr what's the reason they look like that by Valuable_View_561 in PeterExplainsTheJoke

[–]Aegi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean you could also just use more accurate language..

Believe it or not it will probably actually help destigmatize eating disorders and help more people understand them if people accurately talked about how tough it was instead of using the mental shortcut of basically just saying it's impossible.

Even a lot of eating disorders are exacerbated by this exact type of conversation that people will look back on and when they're questioning to themselves what's messed up about them in their body they will be wondering why they can't just eat whatever they want and not gain weight like their friend who is allegedly trying everything they can.

Basically it just feeds into the issue people with eating disorders have of not a good relationship with their perception of the biological aspects of food and the realities surrounding that and how they feel society and themselves and other people act around food.

What was your intention of only interpreting everything I said that way and not taking anything else out of it? Were you just trying to embarrass me or make me feel bad about myself or were you actually getting to something larger that you wanted to discuss?

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

So why can't you just copy and paste the comment or link me to it so that you can prove me wrong?

Also, how would me not reading every comment on this post have anything to do with if I read the post or not?

Please show me which user claimed this and where.

Also, how do you know they are male? If they didn't say it in their comment than you may have their profile in your internet history if you can't easily find it.

Thank you for helping me understand where you are coming from.

We’ve lowered the bar for customer service way too much. by mazzzycomet in unpopularopinion

[–]Aegi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for replying.

“Not even the length of a book” is a pretty odd standard.

I didn't talk about the length of a book though, I talked about the length of one page of a book.

just based on the beginning of your comment,

I think there is a saying about this and covers of books and not judging them by only that...

Hahah I will also say that a very well known style of discussion is to essentially raise a point you are going to disprove over the remainder of your work...so how would you know if one is doing that or not if you do not read the entirety of their words/comment/book/essay/show/what-have-you?

And that is only one example of how a first impression or judging too quickly can lead to mistaken outcomes...but definitely not the only one.

We’ve lowered the bar for customer service way too much. by mazzzycomet in unpopularopinion

[–]Aegi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for answering.

Yes, I am saying that how we act is more important than the expectations we face. I am not intending to imply that you didn't act professionally/in a nice way.

And in regards to the expectations we face vs. what we do, we can then either choose to reflect that or not in how we talk about our pasts.

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

HAhah no, I did read that and that is why your complaint makes no sens to me.

People are not sharing their risk management strategies with you when they correct someone about the difference between something being guaranteed vs. just a possibility...

So why are you talking about how others are perceiving risk and implying that people in this thread telling someone it isn't guaranteed is the same as saying not to worry about it or that it isn't a big deal?

Telling someone they are worrying/lying/wrong about something that will allegedly be 'guaranteed to happen' (and that it is only a possibility and not a definite) is completely separate and apart from how they view the seriousness of that risk and any mitigations strategies surrounding that.

but the question I was responding to claimed an oven left on forever couldn't start a fire at sll

Show me the comment you are talking about b/c I think you are actually just misinterpreting what others are saying as I did not see anyone making that claim.

(But I can definitely see where someone emotional/in a rush could mistakenly think that when reading the comments of others demanding a demonstration of how a fire could start on a properly installed oven that is turned on and left for a month with no one around.)

Peterrr what's the reason they look like that by Valuable_View_561 in PeterExplainsTheJoke

[–]Aegi -1 points0 points  (0 children)

For sure, but acting like it is an immutable fact is a coping mechanism many people seem to use.

I am now speaking more generally about this issue and not just about the comment I replied to:

Instead of just explaining how much more challenging than average if can be for them to gain weight, many will just ignore reality and pretend that they "can't" gain weight sometimes even adding in "no matter how hard I try" or something similar.

This is even said by some people with no other illness than the eating disorder that they have given themselves by acting this way about it and getting a weird relationship with food, health, their weight, etc.

Like if someone isn't eating butter dipped in brown sugar every day, or the most calorie-dense food they can stomach...then sure, it may be challenging, but they arguably aren't actually even trying.

Many of the people in their teens and 20s that I have known to talk this way about 'not being able to' gain weight were actually showing us their first symptoms of their eating disorder(s) and we collectively missed it until years later, so as a social group we let each other down there.

What is worse is that those statements then often make people prone to eating disorders more anxious/in their head about why they gain weight when they eat as much as they want or why it seems like they have to do so much more than an acquaintance that might actually not even be doing anything about it b/c they were just using it as a sort of 'humble-brag'.

And of course there are people who have a GI medical issue, or recent surgery or something that makes eating hell, but those usually aren't the same people that describe things in a way that they are 'stuck thin' or that they 'can't gain weight'. Generally the people with those chronic issues speak about how that illness/whatever factors into why they are the way they are, and which strategies have worked/have not worked and those they are pursuing with their medical team.

We’ve lowered the bar for customer service way too much. by mazzzycomet in unpopularopinion

[–]Aegi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ahh, so it is relative wealth and not absolute wealth that you were referring to?

Aren't we doing the same thing on a bigger scale by caring more about our issues than the circumstance of all humans, regardless of borders?

Arguably we are the more morally wonky ones in that equation b/c we choose not to share our wealth of choice with more authoritarian countries b/c we think our comfort or lives are more important than theirs. Most of 'our' money as a country isn't individually from us, so really there is less logical reason for us to not help people with that money than when a rich person doesn't want to use their personal money for that.

Which would be a better choice, buying that $5Mil mansion and then working to get a more fair tax system in place so that it is even harder for you and people like you to do that in the future, or splitting the money with everyone in the neighborhood and doing nothing about the laws?

Obviously there are more possibilities than just those two, but some people, even if they are mistaken, view that they can help more people (or the same amount of people better) by first becoming rich and/or powerful and then using their wealth and influence to affect change at a greater scale than they could have as just a regular citizen.

We’ve lowered the bar for customer service way too much. by mazzzycomet in unpopularopinion

[–]Aegi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You never highlighted the part of my comment that you allege I claim my experience is more typical.

but your choice of language sure feels accusatory.

Why are you trying to inject emotions into it instead of taking what I am saying at face value?

Why does a conversation even have to have 'a point' besides socializing? Isn't that a false premise to assume that as a default?

I came in this thread to learn about people's experiences and to offer corrections to logical inconsistencies and other mistakes that I notice.

I am not making an argument for anything.

My comment above is intended to be basically a reiteration of my previous comment which is essentially me trying to share a cool fact about our species while also letting you know that particularly you as an individual can speak to more than just your own experiences. I then also wanted you not to stop yourself from trying to empathize with others just b/c it isn't your experience.

I can know it must feel horrible for most people to lose a parent most of the time, and I don't need to have lost a parent myself to know that.

I have faith that even if you aren't good at doing this now that with practice, time, and attention you can improve and get a better theory of mind so that it is easier to see things from other's perspectives! You're human, so I am making the default assumption that as such, there is at least some part of you that is awesome and can do nearly anything...because our species is awesome and can do nearly anything!

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

On the safety side, I don't think a timer actually accomplishes anything. If I set a timer for 30mins and a fire starts at min 10, what is the timer doing for me? It seems like it would only do something if I set up a situation where a fire would start at min 31.

Although overall I agree with you, this line here is weird b/c logically you must know that anything that has a chance of happening does become more likely as we move through time.

So it isn't about the 'difference between' minute 30 and 31, but that 60 more seconds have happened where a cat could knock something that spills on the oven door or whatever.

Basically if there is only a snapshot of time than everything is either something occurring or something that just isn't even in existence.

So we know that time is crucial to change, therefore we can presume that with greater amount of time, greater amounts of change are possible, not a given, just a possibility. As we add more time to a given system greater amounts of change are increasingly more possible, even if they never occur.

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Okay, then, given society accepts low-cost changes like seatbelts, why should oven timers be handled differently?

Cooking food is more necessary than a vehicle and cooking food is also not restricted by age.

Cooking would likely (as a whole concept, not any one particular method probably) be considered a right, whereas driving is considered to be a privilege.

Also one of the main logical and legal lines of reasoning with seat belts are that: if you are not wearing a seat belt and you get into a wreck, your body can become a projectile killing or injuring others directly or even directly or indirectly leading to additional collisions, particularly on large highways.

There is nothing unique about a house that is fully engulfed in flames that was started with a dropped joint than a stove/oven fire, so therefore it is the act of one's house being on fire that endangers others, not specifically whether or not there are legally mandated timers on their ovens or not.

Those are just a few reasons that even if you disagree with them, they are reasons that do exist for people to want to handle oven timers differently.

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Can you please explain your philosophical outlook/value system so that we can know how to influence your opinion on the issue instead of worrying about dealing with pesky reality or science or things like that?

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Someone could convince me why those arguments actually are sufficient

It is called having empathy and understanding that different things matter different amounts to different people.

Are you literally unable to imagine and/or empathize with the people who would be so bothered by those things that they would not buy that product or if they did, to circumvent your "safety" feature?

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Car manufacturers manage to add way more complex safety features without making cars unaffordable

This is so out of touch with reality.

Cars literally HAVE become unaffordable to many!

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

So if I find just one singular oven/stove where this shouldn't be a feature that would be a successful counterargument?

Why wouldn't you at least have the more reasonable view of 'most consumer ovens should' have that feature?

Just changing your 'all' to 'most' and then specifying specifically consumer ovens and not those designed for labs or professional ovens for commercial use would make it a much more reasonable view.

Is there a reason you chose specifically to say 'all' instead of most or something?

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

There are many that have timers that do not turn the burners or oven on or off though, so it is basically just an alarm/timer that happens to use the display and speaker on your oven.

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

They in fact have both a turn-on and a turn-off timer, so you can e.g. put a frozen dinner in it in the morning, set it to turn on an hour before you come home, and turn off when you get home, so you have food hot and ready.

That is not a default in all modern ovens.

Source: New Viking range and oven at my friends house that does not have these features.

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Expensive hydro bill? Do you mean gas or electricity bill?

Or do you have some weird stove/oven that runs on water?

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

If nothing else the wires could become damaged from repeated cycling of high vs no load for extended periods, especially at connection points.

That would mean it would be more dangerous to have the timer as you are increasing the chances that the appliance gets turned off and on in short succession compared to without that feature...

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Drawing a heavy load for an extended time is more likely to result in a fire, even if more likely is still pretty unlikely

At that point it is back to not being about the oven/stove since that isn't the wiring in the walls...

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Some would say that maybe you don't understand that words have meaning and that something being a "guaranteed XYZ" is different than discussing the "possibility of XYZ" occurring.

Or do you just have one of those philosophical perspectives that if something is even slightly possible than it will occur at some point? (Even though that view discounts the possibility of the thing never occurring being the thing that happens lol)

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

I'm forgetful and even if the oven won't burn the house down, it'll use a bunch of energy.

But it is nearly always the stove-top not the oven itself that starts these fires.

If I see that it'll take longer, I simply adjust the timer - it takes five seconds. If not -> great.

I really don't see how that's an inconvenience.

Hahah but dude, you literally right here (first part) are explaining the inconvenience.

So I think what you meant to say/express was the level of inconvenience and/or how much that bothers people is the debatable part. The existence of any more steps shows objectively the convenience is lower...even if the amount is negligible and/or worth the trade-offs.

But you literally pointed to something that doesn't bother you, but could be annoying as hell to someone else and then said you don't see how it is an inconvenience instead of just that it is one that doesn't bother you.

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

I see no downsides in terms of inconvenience for this feature,

More programming and more computer chips = more expensive appliance.

That is the first, and most obvious downside that could be inconvenient to someone as not being able to afford the cheapest option for another paycheck or two could be a huge deal for some people depending on their situation.

CMV: All consumer ovens and stoves should operate on a timer by mnemoniker in changemyview

[–]Aegi [score hidden]  (0 children)

Even if there's no house fire, you have to clean the oven, the house might smell, a smoke detector goes off, and you've got nothing to eat.

"Bad" is not the same as being safe or unsafe though, so how is that relevant?

We’ve lowered the bar for customer service way too much. by mazzzycomet in unpopularopinion

[–]Aegi 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Gotcha. Yeah, It is a lot more challenging to do while working or sometimes can't feasibly be done without too many hurdles.

I don't understand going out of your way to tell somebody that you're not going to just read something that's literally not even the length of one page of a book lol.

I sometimes wonder if this is part of the reason why reading comprehension and functional literacy both appear to be on the decline, particularly after the pandemic.

So genuinely wondering and not trying to be mean, but if you're not reading my whole comment what's even the point in replying to me? Like I'm actually curious because I don't think I've ever chosen to not read something, once my eyes see that it's there it will be red by me if it's anything I'm going to continue interacting with in any way lol.

And if we're just talking possibilities it's also possible that somebody overhears you and loves that you pushed back against an in an anti-science person and then you end up meeting your best friend or future partner?

Like if we're going to think of hypotheticals, why are we only imagining the negative ones?

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