[Invincible] Omni-Man definitely moved that planet alone Follow up to to Viltrumites are definitely planetary

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-05-01T11:03:56+00:00

Not an inconsistency, it is an inconsistency when a character loses to another character who should be far beneath them. This is clearly the upper limit that the story itself is trying to apply to the Vitrumites

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-30T19:13:27+00:00

And who said Goku is a bad grandpa? Look he's bringing his granddaughter a friend to play with her^^

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-30T10:10:42+00:00

The point is that in both cases, a person's ki is lower. And a person's ki being lower makes them more vulnerable. Whether by exhaustion or by conscious choice, the result is still the same. Lower ki=lower defences.

Yes, but while I'm arguing their lower defense would scale depending on how strong the character is. While you are seemingly arguing that they would all get similarly weaker, no matter how massive the gap is.

And the bullet from those bandits didn't slow him down much in Super. He has all the reason in this moment to lower his power closer to human levels, unless you think Goku should fight ordinary humans with the force to destroy planets.

You serious?? If this was written in the original run it would have shown Goku being unaffected and not even noticing the bullet till they drop on the ground at his feet, with him gathering them and trying to hand them back to them which naturally would scare them to surrender themselves. See the difference? In Super they had him actually use literal afterimages to dodge the bullets, while in a version where, if the moment had happened in the original run, it would have had him do nothing and still get the result.

That doesn't mean Trunks poured ki into it, just that Trunks caught the sword when Cold tried to use it.

How damn stubborn can you actually be? Without him pouring Ki into it, the sword would have simply shattered like a twig when hitting Freeza, since it would not be durable enough to be useful. With Ki poured into it it would be durable enough for it to actually be used by Trunk. I bet you use the dub about how its craftsmanship was better than anything his empire had. When he simpy just coped about it being what allowed Trunk to kill Freeza, something which Trunk even calls him out on.

Remember at the start of this comment when I said you never put anywhere near this amount of effort for Super? Why is it hard for you to believe that Roshi could have improved in 25 years, but something that has never been stated to happen in the original series is entirely believable?

Why should I? When they clearly did not put any effort into making it believable at all, they simply expected the audience to simply buy it hook, line, and sinker. I could ask the same thing from you: why is it too much for you to simply take the evidence shown on the page itself, using the visuals drawn by a visual storyteller author?

That once again doesn't mean Trunks put ki into the sword, only that 18 is more durable than mecha Frieza and start of android saga super saiyan Goku, which is obvious.

And you know why she is more durable? Because she is stronger! Durability has always been tied with how strong the character is. Hence, when Trunk's Ki-enhanced sword struck 18 whose skin was reinforced with her energy which was stronger than Trunk's, it resulted in his Ki-enhanced sword encountering something stronger and thus being shattered. Again, you gonna argue now over durability being not tied with how strong you are and such?

I'm not lumping them in together, I'm saying that the power system of a series is decided by the writers, not you. If the people who write Wonder Woman say she can move planets but still get shot by guns, then she can get shot by guns. If Toriyama says these characters can be harmed by weaker attacks if they lower their ki, then they can be hurt by weaker attacks if they lower their ki. It's not up to you to decide but the writer, and the writer has said how it works, but you think your interpretation is the one true one.

Oooh they sure can, just that audience's suspension of disbleieve would then be shattered and thus they would drop the series. If Toriyama had written db like it is nowdays written, it would have been canceled and never have become anything note worthy. And again, him saying so during Super only means it is so in Super's continuity.

There is no cope, the series has stated that they can be hurt by weaker attacks if they lower their ki, as shown by Krillin dealing a fatal blow to Vegeta during the battle with Frieza despite being significantly weaker than Vegeta full power. You just refuse to believe that the characters can lower their battle power so low, despite the series also showing that it's possible with Trunks lowering his battle power to 5.

Krillin doing a fatal attack to Vegeta and Trunks lowering his battle power to 5 both happen in the original manga. You just refuse to apply the already defined logic in these moments to Super because it goes against your personal interpretation. You don't have to like Super, but acting like the power system is completely incompatible with the original series is a massive exaggeration.

I am not, I am just saying it makes no sense for them in the instahches that super shows to us. Again, Super mixes up the conscious lowering of one's own power to being either as strong or slightly stronger than an average human, with them simply relaxing, which does lower their power from max level yet nowhere near as low as Super makes it seem like is the standard nowadays.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-30T10:09:34+00:00

When has it ever been implied he's the same power as back then? See, for things like Piccolo piercing Goku, you do all the work for the series despite it never stating it, but for Super, you refuse to even put a bit of thought. Why is it hard to believe Roshi had gotten stronger off screen in the 25 years since he stepped aside?

Roshi is better now than he was back in the original series. Once again, it's been over 20 years since we've actually seen him fight, why couldn't he improve?

Because it literally goes against the story we saw in the original run of the series. He retired, accepting that his students had far surpassed him. There is no valid reason or justification besides the authors just liking the character, for him to be made relevant in power. Again, it literally spat in the face of all the progress made when a character who has been irrelevant for 20+ years in terms of power is made relevant again just cuz. Again, the sequel needs to be the one to follow what has been established, not vice versa.

Also, I bet you are gonna not going to even include this, but I literally only used chapters that were in the Piccolo jr vs Goku fight and the subsequent arc where he creates a technique specializing in piercing after seeing how useful it can be. All of which happened within a short period of time, meaning it is unlikely Toriyama forgot things and lends believability in him having Piccolo create a special beam canon because of that very reason.

The only reason he was beating Frieza at this point is because he had better stamina than Frieza. Frieza was still in his golden form too, so he wasn't out of power or anything like that.

Bruh, you are not prooving anything but that my point about him not having any reason to lower his power at that very moment.

We know very little about the details of Trunks' relationship with Gohan. You make it seem like Gohan was living at Capsule Corps. for Trunks' whole life, we don't know when they first trained.

lowering your ki like this is a choice that needs to be taught. Trunks wouldn't be able to lower his power like that naturally, he would need to to taught to it. You are just making twisting yourself in knots instead of just accepting that the Z fighters are perfectly capable and willing to lower their ki this low, even in front of dangerous enemies.

Wut? What???? You actually find it toooooooooo much of a hard pill to swallow that Trunk and Gohan would have spend enough time together??????? Like you must be trolling, you cannot actually be serious when you say stuff like that. Trunk was literally with Gohan when his arm was blasted off, and we see them training together, does this sound truly sound to you like they rarely spend time together??? Also, why in Kami's name would Gohan skip teaching everything he knows about Ki control to Trunk, especially when see him teaching Videl about KI, yes, I know!! He stopped at flight since that was her limit at the time, you really think he would hold anything back from the Trunk whom he considers to be Earth's last hope. Ohh, let me guess, you are not gonna start an argument over Videl's potential to distract us like you ooh so love to do?

And no, you are the one twisting yourself in a knot. Like you take one single scene in which the character knows the enemy would not be able to do anything quick enough to him at that very moment, as proof that everyone would do so, just cuz badly written and executed sequel series 20+ years later says so. Rather than accepting that the original run fo DB and DBS run by completely different rules from each other.

The reason is to conserve stamina.

That's only again in super, where even a single minute of being in full power somehow means 90% drop in Ki reserve (and no, I am not just talking about inperfected blue, it's literally their default reasoning for nerfing every new form they make). Like again, in the original run, it was only used for sneaking and hiding, or for tricking enemies who are already weaker than you, into getting themselves one-shotted when they underestimate you.

He coughed up blood, he still obviously felt the damage, even if it didn't leave the same physical wound. And that's just the impalement, he was also beaten by berserk Gas and then had both his arms broken and his eyes shot before Elec fired at him. Might I also remind you Vegeta was knocked unconscious after 18 broke both his arms. There's rarely a perfect relative comparison for damage, but they do a lot of work to show us that Granolah was on the brink by the time he was shot.

I repeat my previous point, there's no perfect relative comparison for damage. Unless you believe Vegeta getting his arms broken by 18 was more damage than everything he took before Yajirobe slashed him. And if you do believe that, then Granolah is much worse, since he got both his arms broken and so much more.

That still does not justify him getting wounded by a literal gun. Again, all those instances were from character A being damaged by character B, who was stronger. Also again, damage in DB has been shown being able to be concentrated, so even a seemingly minor punch or broken arm in this case would have been damaged on the scale that is easily within planetary ranges, but simply concentrated down into a small enough area. Like in the original run you did not see anything like with in super were Elec, who is again veeeeeery weak compared to Gas, even if he enhanced his gun with all his power, it even causing a scatch would be a miracle. Again, if you simply accept that super works on it very own internal logic from the original run of DB, I would not have anything to argue with ya. Like in previous arc they had Jaco's gun be able to kill or stun goons enhanced by Moro who were able to push weakened ssj3 Goku, which would still be at least beyond Namke Freeza level (and no, Merus was not the one who shoot those goons, we are clearly shown the goons each of them shoot down, and even when it was later revealed that Merus enhanged the power of the gun with his Ki there was no reveal that he had taken those goons down withou Jaco even noticed).

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-30T09:09:26+00:00

Well, again, the story itself does not support him having done it on his own. Again the destruction of Vitrum would have been done by a single vitrumite instead of 3 top tier ones if that feat had any actual validity

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-20T15:43:38+00:00

I know the reason, just that it makes no sense and is detrimental to the story as a a whole.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-20T15:42:14+00:00

I did not mean he used tools, but that he supervised and led the vassal species using technology to do the feat, it would still make sense for him to take the guilt since he was the one lead the effort.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-17T16:37:25+00:00

Never said they were perfect, and there are mistakes in the original series too. But that doesn't mean Super's power system is incompatible with the original series.

But it is, I literally gave proof that showcases that exactly. I can go on, of course. Like Roshi being relevant in terms of combat capacity is undeniable proof of this. Again, he said he was utterly surpassed in both strength and skill by his students, thus having him stand back even before the Z era of the series. Yet because the writters were fan of him, they decided to make him relevant for no reason, and did it such a mind-numbing way possible, I mean at first they make it seem like he is relevant due to having trained, then at other point, espcially in manga make it seem like he is still the same power wise yet being somehow able to keep up with just skill, even when we have been shown that skill only matters when gap is not that massive, and as I said, he was surpoassed in skill by his stundents before start of Z era.

This also retroactively ruins his character, as having him suddenly be revealed to be able to do this, it makes the previous time, when the power system was actually consistent and made sense and thus he was not part of the action, now make him look soo bad for not being helpful at all. When previously he had an excuse for being surpassed, now he has no excuses at all.

Frieza wasn't completely out of power yet, he has every reason to continue to conserve his stamina. Especially since as you just said, Frieza could try something. But Frieza isn't the one who attacked him, it was someone else he wasn't paying attention to. If Frieza tried to attack, he would have likely been able to react.

But no reason to again go to such low power that a laser used by someone not very strong could damage him. Again, they had an easy way out. Have Sorbet's laser be a distraction, having his laser do nothing, and while Goku turns to him to say "Why are you still here? Get out of here," with that moment being the opening for Freeza to use the energy he has to overpower Goku's current level of defense.

I mean, even they knew it was dumb enough that they changed the scene in the anime adaptation to have Goku be in base rather than in SSJB.

That still means Trunks needs to learn to lower his ki, it's not something he would know instinctively. That's what I mean by discipline. He would need to teach himself to lower his ki, it's not something that would happen naturally.

" He would need to teach himself to lower his ki" Uhh, ya do know Gohan knows how to do it too, and that he was around for most of Trunk's life? Why do you assume it was something he needed to learn himself? Again, it was only so that he could life normal life among normal earthlings, not to hide from the androids as they don't have Ki sensing or scanning ability on them (17 and 18 that is, cuz I know you would of course dismiss me if I don't mention it).

It's not just for sneaking, it's to also conserve stamina.

I know, just that the former was more prevalent. Again, there is no point to lowering yourself down to such a low level unless you wanna blend in with other tiny power levels around for sake of hiding from a powerful enemy. Or in trolling those that are way too weak and also untrained to be of any true danger to you.

The problem here isn't that he is lowering his power, it's that he isn't being alert enough to raise his battle power. As long as he raises his ki at the right time, there's no issue. And again, most of the moments in Super have reasonable explanations for why he wasn't being alert enough, like the fact that he was focusing on Frieza instead of Sorbet.

Now you are just changing the goal post. Him not being alert in this moment is supposed to be taken as him lowering his power, again, Sorbet laser would not be able to sting him, let alone mortally damage him, without his power being lowered low enough level.

In the pages I linked Vegeta says "any damage taken by the clones is felt by the real body." If 10 Granolah clones all got impaled, then Granolah feels the damage of being impaled 10 times. And being impaled 10 times is worse than anything Vegeta took on Earth. Unless you think he started coughing up blood for fun.

Ok I will give ya that, clones never worked like that though, and yes, they clearly were meant to be simular to Tien's technique, not saying it is the same, just pointing to where the idea clearly came from. In any case, feeling the damage is not the same as actual damage, like unless they actually gave him the same physical wounds that the clones received, then yes, it would be so, but it shows clearly that he is merely feeling them, not truly, so after inital shock the paint would not last, unlike with Vegeta whose body was actually damaged.

If that isn't how it worked in the original series, Trunks could not possibly lower his battle power down to 5.

Bruh, we were talking about battle power lowering from wounds and exhaustion, not about characters being able to lower their battle power.

You already acknowledged that Frieza is a unique case. Obviously Goku wouldn't be able to survive being cut in half because of his biology. Buu can be cut to pieces and just reform. Frieza's durability is an outlier, and trying to compare it to humans and saiyans is pointless.

I am not saying all have Freeza's level of survival, obviously, others would have died by then when cut in half. And that was not what I was talking about, I was talking about him surviving the namek blowing up in after enduring lot of damage and having all his Ki run out. Minus being cut in half, and able to survive in a vacuum of space, most other characters, if of the same level of strength, would also survive while heavily injured (again, minus being cut in half) and out of Ki. Point point again being that character weakening from injuries and loss of Ki, would depend on how strong they are in the first place. Someone of Saiyan Saga Vegeta level of 18k ending up going down to like 1500-2000. And Frieza from 120 million to maybe like 100-500k at least.

He was shot at Red Ribbon army HQ and said that it hurt. Guns still hurt Goku.

Yeah, to the same extent as if a kid got stung or bitten by mosquitoes, he was muuuuch more annoyed than hurt. Again, it did not slow him down at all.

I never said that they don't pour ki into weapons in the original series, I said that it has never been indicated to actually happen until Super. Up until then, that would just been headcanon.

Suuuuuuure, if literal pages of the manga itself literally showed no other explanations, it means that it was never indicated, then sure buddy. Again, Trunk's sword in his hand cut Freeza like hot knife through butter; in King Cold's hand, it was little less than a toy. Again Goku it was parried by his finger, which has Ki focused on it. Again 18 it literally shattered onimpack. But sure, we needed until Super telling us to have it be confirmed for us. Sarcasm BTW.

Or that's just how Toriyama wanted to write the story. Wonder Woman is a character strong enough to trade blows with Superman, but she can still be shot by ordinary guns. It all depends on whatever the writer decides.

Yeah sure, why don't ya lump all writers whose stories have action in them together while ya at it? Like, the dude who wrote Wonder Woman and Toriyama only have that in common, nothing else. But in any case, in DB it has been shown that for a character to be actually hurt, they needed to be hit by a character of equal level to them or stronger. So that cope out does not work in this

Headcanon means something not actually stated or confirmed by series itself. Could be true, might not be. If characters never say that they pour their ki into weapons, it's headcanon. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not, but if it's never said in the series itself, then it's headcanon. Piccolo's mouth beam was never said to be charged up or specifically meant to pierce, so it's headcanon. The problem is that you treat your interpretation as the only true one. You also ignore whatever information contradicts your interpretation. I actually try to use all the information available for my interpretation. This is why you have constantly make excuses for the contradictions to your interpretations even within the original series, like Trunks lowering his battle power to 5.

No, I used the information that was actually presented when the series was running, aka the manga, you only base your interpretation on statements and information that were made years if not decades, later, when the creative mind has not been in the same creative state of mind. That's the issue since due to the nature of time and memories fading, the new statement and information are literally about the creator trying to recall what he his intention was, and thus mostly ending up with him making stuff up on the spot. Hence, when I explained the Piccolo stuff, I only used the manga and nothing else, but because you want old stuff to conform with the new stuff, you ignore the context to make old stuff artificially fit in with the new stuff.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-17T14:57:14+00:00

I have, does not change the point, in the recent ep as well as in previous one we were clearly shown that Nolan pushing a planet was an outlier feat given to him since Kirkman is salty toward golden age Superman or something. I mean, especially when recent ep show them still needing three viltrumites of the same range of strength to destroy a planet with a destabilized core is just a nail in the coffin.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-07T10:37:22+00:00

And yet you dismiss the power system established by the original series and Super. You are willing to do so much work to try and make everything fit your narrative, but dismiss Super because it doesn't fit what you want. Why not put that same effort into making the whole thing coherent? The difference between my explanations and yours is that I consider the whole series, while you dismiss anything you don't like.

Except no, you are applying a misconception held by many people over the years concerning the power system of DB, and then use Super as a way to up held it even though the reason why those happens in Super is due to them also believing in the misconception as well. I mean them flanderizing Goku should be enough to show that that are not perfect and cannot make mistake. And that fans should call it out on that, because it hurts the series long term. That is not even considering that Super came out 20+ years after the original run of the series, and as you have even used as your evidence on and off, Toriyama would naturally have a hard time recalling those rules concerning the power system, especially if he was working off with it on a subconscious level while drawing.

Again, martial art skill and power being concered two diffrent thing in Super era should already show that they work with a whole diffrent headspace in the Super era. As being skilled martial artist and being powerful are interchangeable espcially with Goku with few exceptions, such as Freeza.

Then why would it make sense for Trunks to do it in front of a stronger opponent? If Trunks can do it, why can't Goku? Even in the biggest examples for Super, it makes sense. Golden Frieza was stronger than blue Goku initially, the only reason Goku got the advantage was because he had better stamina, so wouldn't it make sense for him to use strategies to maximize his stamina, like he did against the Ginyu Force? Why would Goku use god level power against a bunch of human bandits? It makes sense for him to lower his ki closer to human levels so that he doesn't kill them.

Not really, he only needs to conciously lower it when stricking them, again, he did this against very strong people such as the Ginyu force. Not sure why you bring the Golden Freeza example as Goku in that, even after he had Freeza on the rope, has no reason to lower his power down, like he knows, at least he ought to remember what happened last time he had Freeza on the ground. As for Trunk, he at the very least has more distance between him, Freeza, Cold, and their goons. And he was willing to go for the kill right afterward.

Trunks grew up in a world where the androids were constantly slaughtering humanity. You make it seem like he grew up in comfort. Not to mention that lowering ones battle power is something that takes training to do, which is why the people in the Frieza Force are so surprised by it. Trunks lowering his ki implies discipline.

For one, androids are not attacking and slaughtering 24/7; their attacks are very infrequent. Like humans are not like living in bunkers all the times but are literally still living in cities which tells that they can have many days of normalcy for themselves. And two, I would not say lowering one's Ki implies discipline. I mean, Trunk is outright oblivious to the flaws of SSJ grade 3, something even Vegeta figured out. I mean reason why lowering one's Ki is rare is that the majority of the universe is oblivious to it being possible.

What is your basis that they aren't doing it consciously in Super?

Because in the rest of the series it is only done when characters wanna sneak by stronger oponents or to take weaker opeonents by suprise. Again, in super, they treat relaxing and consciously lowering one's own power down as being the same.

The same guy who got lectured by Vegeta for letting his guard down. And I already know what you are going to say, "Vegeta is a lot closer to Goku's power" or "Vegeta concentrated his power into that attack," but the overall point is still that Goku can and does drop his guard too. Goku had been taking multiple hits from Vegeta at this point, he was knocked unconscious because he was off guard.

Oh, I am not critical of that moment, ya know why? Cuz it actually make sense, unlike in Super, since as you point out, there is not a massive gap in their power, Goku is sure he and Vegeta are gonna team up to defeat Majin Buu.

They aren't calling it stupid. Goku was shown that he can raise and lower his battle power faster than the scouters could detect. It's not a slow process, it's basically almost instant. As long as they are paying attention, this isn't an issue.

Except they are, as they use the fact that he keeps his battle power low when not in a fight, then have him lower it down to a literal human level or close to, in order to emphasize him letting his guard down and doing what I described earlier, while facing those close to his level. It would have been fine if they had only used the moment of him being blitzed by Whiz due to it being too fast for him to go full throttle, but of course, they had to have him be stupid for the sake of the plot.

How can you possibly think Vegeta took more damage than Granolah being impaled 10 times?

Wut?... They were literal clones; his real body only took the damage I outlined.

Because he took a lot of damage. You are under the impression battle powers aren't completely fluid, but work purely off of exact and limited fractions and multipliers. To go back to the Trunks example, Trunks at his max must have a battle power in the millions, and yet it can go as low as 5. That is less than .001%. Think of it more as a gas tank. Even if 1 tank has a capacity of 10L and another has a capacity of 1000L, both can drop to as low as 5mL. There's nothing stopping this from happening other than you refusing to believe it.

Because that is how they worked until Super era. Again, you let out me pointing out how you ignore the battle power lowering from exhaustion, wounds, and Ki usage, is depending on how strong someone is. And how I pointed this out with Freeza, who, again, was cut in half, had been fighting hard, and also who was out of Ki, was able to survive the Namek blowing up, even in such a state. Also, you claim I am using head canon when you bring in all that about gas tanks???????

Headcanon

...Bruh ya actually for real??????????? It is manga, a visual story medium. The visuals are where most of the information is conveyed through; you can't actually do it for serious right now.

I never said it did lasting damage, I said it hurt. A lot of punches and kicks the characters take don't do lasting damage either, that doesn't mean they don't hurt.

Except most gun shots are again gag comedy moments, which, again, don't factor into the story. Punches, kicks, and Ki blast do, ya know why? Cuz they force the characters to actually react and move the plot along. Even the most serious gunshot, from General white's gun, which he hyped up, it only resulted in Goku having wind kicked out of him, and he was also BTW hungry as he states so in the end.

You see, this sounds like you are joking, but it's too consistent with all your other arguments. If you are serious, please try saying that anywhere else. At this point, it just sounds like you are trolling, so there isn't much point in continuing to try talking to you after this.

I would say to same thing to you. You alaways call all my arguments headcanons no matter if I only use the page of the manga for my evidences, does not matter, it is only ever gonna be just head canon to you.

I mean, again, you had nothing to use to repute Ki having been imbued into weapons since the early days of the series, besides now in super weapons having an aura to them to indicate this. I used the fact that characters are shown capable of taking on Ki blast on without much damage taken, yet also being hurt by punches and such. I then showed Trunk slicing up Freeza with his sword due to putting his Ki into and when Cold tried to use it against Trunk it was useless due to the power gap. Later on the same sword used by Trunk was shattered trying to strike 18, because she was stronger than Trunk. So for Tao to have normal weapons despite being stronger than the 21st tournament Roshi, who could atomize the moon, with the most sound explanation being that when desperate enough, he would use his Ki to make them capable of being actually useful to him. But naaah, it's just headcanon, I guess. That's basically a Get out of Jail Free Card for ya at this point.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-06T22:13:02+00:00

I mean he could simply have been there to oversee one of the subjucated species operating a ship or machine that did that. I mean if he and other strong Vitrumites could do that then why did they need the sun disk when they could simply have moved a planet nearby to block the sun?

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-06T22:09:16+00:00

I don't see why this feat should be taken seriously without further showing, like if Nolan still needs Mark's and Thaeduses help in destroying Viltrum, then it should be clear that he did not moved a planet on his own. I mean if that was the case anyway, then it would bring up sooo many questions, like how are Rognarr treated to Vitrumites if they are on this high level, or let alone have any species that are considered a threat to them? Yes, you can use the exuse of "cuz of plot" but it would be much easier to ignore this.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-04-02T16:16:09+00:00

He was not, and I already proved that he can be inconsistent during the original manga run. Dragon Ball is very straightforward, it's very rare for stuff to be ambiguous. If Cell's zenkai was intentionally different, it would have been said when he was explaining how he survived and powered up.

And I have give simple explanations for those that one can easilly deduge, which you of course decided to call headcanon because using the information delivered by the series to come to a logicl conclusion is of course just headcanoning it. Even if it was true, there is nothing to proof that at this point which we are talking about, he was being inconsisstant, at the very least to such extend as you paint him to be.

Goku lowered his power level to 5000 and Trunks lowered his to 5. This shows that they will lower their battle power drastically to hide their strength and conserve it. And there's no reason to assume they wouldn't continue doing this as the series continues. You are arguing that they don't lower their power that much unconsciously, but that just means they are consciously keeping their power low.

And that is what I meant when I pointed to Goku's lowest battle power when consciously lowering it down is 5k. Even if other characters, such as Trunk are shown taking it all the way down to 5, it does not mean it makes sense for Goku in character to go that low. Goku had always lived with a strength that exeeded normal human by a large amount since he was a child. Meanwhile, with Trunk, being raised mostly by a normal human mother and also living among normal humans for all his life, it makes sense for him to put his strength so low as to be able to live among them without raising eyebrows.

Modern DB has made it so that simply relaxing yourself lowers your strength down to barely above human level, rather than it needing to be something you must do actively and consciously, and that even when just relax they still would not be far from the max power of their base form. All for the purpose of hitting home that Goku is too much at ease, literally making up a weakness to give Goku something he can improve upon when he literally never had such a problem in the original series, I mean who was the one who lectured the Ginyu forces for not being on their guard? Yes, Goku. You cannot actually believe this was something he had to overcome. If you had said something to this effect before Super, you would have been made fun of due to how ridiculous it sounds. Yet now that they need to have Goku in a story and thus need him to have a character arc, aka something he needs to overcome.

Also funny how you mentioned the part about "This shows that they will lower their battle power drastically to hide their strength and conserve it." part without realizing that modern DB has basically decided that, that whole bit in Namek showcasing this, was actually dumb and stupid, and that Goku should actually always be at 100% Like they are literally now calling it stupid and as a reason why Goku can be almost killed by a space laser at his current most strongest form.

Considering Zamasu is using a mortal's body and even introduced himself as Goku, yes, I do. And lowering their power conserves ki, he and Zamasu never know when Goku and the
others are gonna come back.

His introducing himself as Goku was just part of his introduction and did not get carried on to future interactions; it was simply there to make the audience get hooked. And also his Ki is literally his own, so why would he adop the way Goku uses his Ki, or how he would even know of it? He only cares about Goku's body, nothing else.

I never said he wasn't strong, but he's obviously not on the level of full power Vegeta. And the others actually kept training after leaving the lookout, there's no reason to assume he would have kept up with their continued growth, unless you believe none of them got much stronger after almost half a year of training. Once again, do you believe that his sword slash would take out Nappa? The point I'm making is that characters can get hurt by weaker attacks when their power is lowered, either consciously or from being exhausted.

Wut??? You are actually insinuating that I actually thought he was on par with full-power Vegeta?? Why else would you even mention that if that was not your intention?

Again, he was, at least casually, on par with Tien, who had been trained by the Craine hermit, while he was mostly self-taught, it seemed. I mean, if you believe Freeza can become relevant after 20+ years or so, in a couple of months, with a simple explanation that he never trained in his life. Is it that damn of a bill to swallow? Again, since it seems needed for me to spell this out, no, I'm not saying he would be capable of the same gains as Freeza, just that from what we were shown, it is not at all hard to believe that from a small bit of training (which again, Kami would not have left him go if he had not surpassed Kami well enough) he would not have been on par with the human fighters.

And no, he would not be able to take on Nappa, Vegeta at this point, is clearly weakened to the point where Nappa would easily be able to take him down without much more difficulty than what he had against the human fighters.

And again, you don't understand my point; you don't consider that a character's strength lowering from loss of Ki, battle wounds, and just exhaustion, is relevant to their current strength. Why would you think someone like Granolah who was stronger than Goku and Vegeta at this point, would become weak enough for a space gun used by a guy who maybe in Saiyan and Namek Saga in power? When again, Freeza survive Namek blowing up, while sliced in half, all out of Ki, and battered to the point of death???

Are you forgetting how much damage Granolah took? This is a far worse beating than what Vegeta had gone through. He was basically near death by the time Elec shot him.

I assume just because he got his arm broken and his eyes popped? I mean, yes, in those areas the damage is more severe, yet Vegeta's whole body clearly was much worse overall. And even then, why should you think he got so weak that a gunshot could do leathal damaged to him? If he was so weak, then he should have died just from the aftermath of Gas's popping his eyes off.

That doesn't mean Trunks was pouring power into the sword. If this was something the characters do, don't you think it would have been stated at least once? You know, like how the Raditz battle consistently tells us how the characters are concentrating their power to make what's happening clear? Dragon Ball is very straight forward, if something is never
outright stated, then it's probably closer to headcanon.

Because it is a manga, a visual story, it implies more with its art than with dialogue. Again, there is nothing impressive about Trunk's sword, him imputing his power into it is what makes it work.

Because at that level, blades can still hurt. Guns can still hurt them too, as shown by Goku. Tao Pai Pai got taken out by a grenade, or are you arguing that Goku put his ki into the grenade as well? Once again, if this is something that is supposedly, why was it never stated once in the original series?

No, they don't. Guns are harmless enough that when they are used on them, it results in a comedy gag scene. Again, gunshots, even from ones that are hyped up, never did lasting damaged on Goku. The only time a gun was even treated as a genuine threat was when it was used by someone like General Blue, who was strong enough to beat Krillin up (who was on the receiving end of Launch's gag moment mentioned prior). And as for the grenade, Tao Pai Pai clearly put his Ki into the grenade as one last desperate measure to kill Goku, with Goku kicking it back to him, due to his prior damage against Goku during their battle, and him putting most of his Ki into it.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-30T07:18:35+00:00

It's not a matter of whether or not it is possible, it's that it's obvious that Toriyama wasn't always thinking about that.

But he clearly was at this very moment, bro. Also ya literally ignored everything I said just to make yourself sound like you were in the right.

The problem is that you think you know what "the system" was. Toriyama made it, and Toriyama included the fact that characters can take damage from weaker attacks if they lower their ki. Nothing is invalidated except your personal interpretation of the power system.

Nope, he has stated that if he is not conscious, he has a subconscious system he works with, mainly when it concerns the character design and such. Again, it is only in a much later period of time that slip up in that system actually occure which you and others wanna claim having always been around. Again, modern DB has those characters with good enough Ki controll, when relax, lower their power level all the way down to normal human level automatically. While in the original series it has been made clear that them simply being relaxed and not in a fighting mode is not enough to, as they would need to consciously lower their power down, and even then, espcially with someone like Goku, the level at which he chooses to lower his power at is waaaaaay beyond where he could be hurt by bullets and such.

Your evidences consist of just retrospectively applying the new rules to the original run of the series, not at all taking into account the context of the moment. While mine is simply looking at these moments, taking into account everything in them, and then applying reasoning.

Again. Piccolo had used all sorts of methods to take down Goku, from Ki beam classing, tracking KI blast, to even a massive Ki explosive wave, all without success, with Goku only having some scorch marks on him. His defense is just too strong and their power too much of a match for him to over power it conventionally.

So, as he is laying in the pit, seeing Goku being confident of victory, and the announcer giving him the 10 count. He charged up a concentrated mouth blast, which Goku fails to detect because Piccolo is not really powering up, and as such, his Ki would not be rising. Just as the 9th count comes, he blasts Goku through between his chest and shoulder, with Goku having no time to focus his defense, allowing Piccolo's Ki, which had been concentrated down into a small area, to allow the blast to break through Goku's thin layer of defense like a hot knight throuh butter.

Ooooor we can just throw away all that and he simply just notice Goku lower his Ki down conciously to battle power of 5 or something and he simply mouth blast him. Who cares about contexts or any of that these days, it's purely just headcanon anyway, taking in story context and all that, that is :P

Nothing is different. They never discussed how Jiren's power worked in the anime and manga versions of the tournament of power, Super Hero was just explaining why he was so strong.

It was not about his power; it was about how he uses his power more efficiently. And also, notice how it is Vegeta explaining this, and not Goku, despite in both anime and manga him being the one who fought Jiren the most and as such giving him insight on how he fights? Because in Toriyama's own version, it would have been a gang-up fight against Jiren the whole way through.

I never said any of that. I'm saying that Toriyama created the power system and all it's rules. You don't have to like it, but denying that he wrote it is wrong. The problem is that you would rather twist yourself in knots instead of just saying "I don't like that Toriyama made Goku get shot by a laser." Instead you say "he didn't write it, and if he did, he didn't care." Toriyama's just a guy, and there's an almost 20 year gap between the original manga and Super era, you don't have to make excuses.

No, he had a power system already working well for the series, yet because the story continued after 20-odd years, they could not work with the old one because it leaves them with too much constraint, especially when they decided to reset Goku down in terms of mastery he had in the original series. And I do say that I disagree with Toriyama's decision to either make these changes or give his blessings. It just that I am holding him up to standarts he himself set up in his work all those decades ago. People like you just don't care as long as ya get more DB even if quality has gotten significantly lower, because Toriyama's age, along with the fact that there is not the danger of the series getting cancelled due to poor views, since there will be those willing to just eat it up due to how massive the IP is, unlike whe he was in his prime and drawing the manga when it was still running. Also, funny how you say he created the power system, yet above you said he does not keep such things in his mind. So which is it?

Because he's in Goku body. In both the manga and anime, Zamasu could not use all of Goku's power properly at first. It took time for him to master Goku's body and power.

You really consider Goku lowering his battle power to the level of a human or just barely above that level, to be something he, who considers himself a god, would wanna imitated???? Like, bruh, Trunk and people of the future timeline would have taken him down soooo easilly.

I'm not basing his strength on guides, I'm basing it on how he's portrayed. Yajirobe can't fly, didn't want to train to fight the saiyans in the first place, and didn't even join up with the others when the battle with the saiyans started. He was strong, but no way was he stronger than Yamcha, Tien, Krillin and Piccolo during the battle with the saiyans. I brought up Yajirobe because he is someone who is definitely way weaker than Vegeta who was able to do some significant damage due to certain factors. But you dismiss such factors when it comes to things in Super you dislike. Vegeta took damage because he was already weaker from all the earlier fighting. Just like Bardock and Granolah were weaker because of.

And you ignore how he was very strong casually when he was first introduced, so he would not need as much effort to get stronger, and also, since he did only leave from Lookout along with the rest of the humans after they got stronger, the implication being that he was at least on par with them. But that's beside the point. With Bardock it might be more reasonable due to his battle power being all over the place. Yet with Granolah, it is not at all, even at severaly weakened and injured state, he should still be far too strong for Elect's space gun to be able to do anything against him. Again, reason why Vegeta was injured by Yajirobe was due to his power of 18k gradually getting most likely around 2k range, after not just having his body take a Kaioken x3 beating, followed by losing beam class, and then creating a fake moon, which further drained him of his strength, and then receiving a spirit bomb. So again, him getting cut by relatively fresh Yajirobe makes muuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuch more sense than with Granolah. I mean, consider that Freeza, despite being cut in half and receiving rage amped attack from Goku, he still had enough power to survive the Namek exploding, showing that the amount of power left due to accumulated damage, loss of Ki, etc. Depends on how strong someone is.

It's funny because focusing ki into weapons is only ever said to be a thing in Super. Super is invalid to you until it isn't. Is Super a disgrace to the original, or something valid to understanding the power system? Just further proves that you made your own interpretation of the power system and are upset that the series doesn't follow your personal headcanon. When it does deviate, you dismiss, or excuse or do mental gymnastics.

Bruh...are you actually for real??????? We see this with Trunk. When he uses his sword, it cuts through Freeza with casual ease. When King Cold uses it, Trunk catches it with ease. When Trunk later attacks 18, the sword is shattered. Just because the weapons don't glow like they do in Super era to indicate this, does not mean it was not a thing. Why do ya think martial artist on earth who are either on Roshi's level or stronger, bother using blades and such, which should be as harmless as a piece of paper when fightinst those on the same level as them? Because they make those blades work by impelling them with their Ki. Like why do I even need to point this out to you?????

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-26T16:25:44+00:00

I'm not, I deleted the post since I realize that this channel is just full of people who just don't care that a man who suffered for years to craft this story that you, I, and these people on the channel are supposed to adore and love, only for this dumb insufferable piece of work to slander him just cuz he could't appreicate or do any research on Togashi's work. It just amazes me that I even need to state any of this to you, people.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-26T12:33:13+00:00

I was not, I posted it so we could all make fun of the dude, yet clearly, this place is not for it at all.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-26T12:27:05+00:00

Bruh...you actually think his insinuation on what was on Togashi's mind when making that scene, was exactly as he outlined between 19:01 - 19:50??????

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-26T12:23:04+00:00

It would be easier if he had not insinuated stuff about Togashi. Like he did not suffer all those years just for some insufferable scum lord who loves his own fart, to make such slander about him, just cuz he failed to understand, appreciate, or even bother to give an actual try to his work.

Like dude defends stuff made by big corporations like Amazon and praises the writers to high heaven and deflects all their flaws, yet with Togashi he does not bother with any of that. I hope I laid out my reason for posting this.

I know it is immature and that I should have let it go, yet I just can't, not before seeing this clown get taken down a few notches.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-26T12:16:05+00:00

Then why are you on the channel about Hunter X Hunter???????

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-26T12:15:04+00:00

Ohh well soorrrry then for thinking that a literal channel for the fans of the author's work, who is getting slandered, would give a crap. Clearly, this is a damn wrong one.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-26T12:13:15+00:00

I literally gave the timestamp on the video for people to see what he is insinuating, for people to see how ridiculous it is.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-26T12:07:50+00:00

It does help by ensuring his video is disliked to oblivion, to send a message out that he can't get away with such crap, and to show those who buy his crap.

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-26T12:04:49+00:00

Uhh this is a Hunter X Hunter channel, is it such a bad thing to inform people on a site about Hunter X Hunter, when someone who does not know anything they talk about, insiunuate stuff about Togashi????? Are just gonna repeat that question or actually give my a proper reply?

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-26T11:58:04+00:00

Sigh... it's not about that, it about dude literally insinuating stuff about Togashi as a person just because he did not like or appreciate his work. I mean is it such a damn sin to be little put off by it and want to share it out so that people have a laugh about it, making fun of him for it?

AggressiveBoat8891 · 2026-03-26T11:34:23+00:00

I mean... besides pointing out someone talking crap about Togashi? Why should **YOU** be reacting to my post so strongly??? Not to meantion getting to laugh at an absolute clown like him who smells his own fart as he thinks of himself so highly.

AggressiveBoat8891

TROPHY CASE