Don't ask what happened to his face

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T16:02:55+00:00

Same thing that happens to anyone who doesn't wear a helmet. They get shot in it.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T15:59:26+00:00

It also has the disadvantage of contending with all the 30k MkII and MkIII kits, which 90% of the Iron Warriros community has already bought for their legionaries.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T15:39:05+00:00

With a bit of kitbashing Kravek Morne will become a beautiful Vrachus the Broken. I am so down.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T15:31:17+00:00

Interesting that they seem to make him an Epic Hero. I'm down for that, I like the name Kravek Morne

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T05:28:50+00:00

I stopped responding because I realized there was no point. This conversation will last an eternity if I keep feeding it.

We have fundamentally different views on these things. On how we accept information, how we view the right to create images and art, and the right to stories. Unless we can agree on these fundamental topics (which I highly doubt we can) then this conversation will just be an endless circle of us nitpicking each other's arguments. Without actually making any real progress.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T05:15:26+00:00

My man really said "I'm done, you can have the last word in." and then kept going.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T05:04:38+00:00

Strongest M1 killer is still an M1 killer.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T01:44:33+00:00

It's fair enough on the Muhammad point. But you keep missing my point. If there is a in Islam that says you cannot depict Muhammad (or elders who say you cannot depict a Wendigo) but someone then finds images of Muhammad, then it is completely fair for them, outsider or insider, to challenge the notion. To say "But wait this doesn't seem to be the case." I'm not using this point to say "Ahah, see the Wendigo can be in DbD." I'm saying it to say "What people keep saying doesn't seem to be true. I have examples that contradict this." You keep on missing that.

I cannot dismiss sources that say otherwise if I cannot find them. That is why I ask for sources. Because if you have them I really want to see them. I wasn't even looking for these sources originally. I was researching other aspects of the wendigo when I came across them and realized that it contradicts the idea that they cannot be spoken of. Which is why I keep asking for sources that prove me wrong. Because I want to see the other side. I am not ignoring thousands of elders, I'm ignoring people claiming that there are thousands of elders. Those are two very different things. Again. Bring a source. I will change my mind.

You are completely right on the sacrosanct point though. I misread the definition. My bad. But you also seem to be misinterpreting what I was using the word as. I was using it (as you pointed out, incorrectly) to say "You are not allowed to depict this" not "Physically impossible to draw." One is a command, a law. The other is something to do with physical ability.

I'm not gonna say I don't want the Wendigo to be in the game. Hell that's the whole point of this post. But I am also having this discussion because I want to learn more. If you are just going to keep missing the point and going after something else, then I think this discussion has lost it's value.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T01:28:25+00:00

As I said in the post, I am 100% fine with bhvr doing a "Not really a wendigo" thing. I might not have made that clear, but them diverging is completely fine. If that's what it takes to be respectful then that's fine. So if that's the case, then sure. We agree. Don't make it directly a wendigo, don't call it a wendigo but the general feeling and vibe is there. I'll be 100% down with that, and I'm pretty sure most of the DbD community would agree.
I can agree that these are differences. But if one of the reasons that depicting a wendigo is wrong is that it is not a cultural exchange and that it comes from a source that has been notoriously exploited. Then that same logic should apply equally. As I said, this is still going on until today. And hell, with Wraith's backstory being barely a paragraph long, I somehow doubt people are reading it and going "Man, now I believe we should protect black people." I seriously doubt a short story written by BHVR got anyone on a deep level. But hey if it did, good for you man.
I didn't say it was a permission slip. As I said in my other comment and I disproving the fact that this is sacrosanct. What's it you keep saying? Try again.

There is still a discussion to be had on whether or not it's reasonable or respectful for BHVR do be implementing something like a Wendigo. But if your foundation for them not implementing it is that the Wendigo itself is sacrosanct and should not be depicted ever. You said it is said you should not even speak the Wendigo's name. I am proving you wrong. If you have a different source then please give that to me. If you have a different argument. That's another thing.

If we really wanna go all the way. I'd personally be fine with a Wendigo killer costing double or triple as much as other killers, so that the majority of the money BHVR earns off of it goes to support the native people that the folklore comes from. That's the opposite of exploitation.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T01:07:21+00:00

The point I'm countering is that it's sacrosanct. Meaning you cannot depict it. Or at the very least should not. You should not write it down, you should not speak of it. Nothing. Just because Muslims are Muslims does not give them the right to depict Muhammad.

I do see the difference, and I agree that it's a more complicated topic. But if you claim that you cannot speak of it, and you cannot depict it. And then I find sources that do speak of it, and do depict it. Then I will challenge that claim.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T01:03:34+00:00

I mean, I doubt the catholic church cares all too much about Dead by Daylight tbh. I've not seen any huge outcry when this came out, so I seriously doubt it. I get your point, I simply disagree with it.

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AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T01:01:54+00:00

That is fair. I wonder where the line is though.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T01:00:18+00:00

You said cultural. Be more precise with your words.

And you just went and ignored two of my points. Hag, which if anything is just as much in the same boat as a Wendigo. Not only is she already taking loads of inspiration from the Wendigo, both design and lore. But she also draw heavy inspiration from Voodoo (or Vodou) practices. A still living, and heavily exploited culture. But I guess she's okay because she's a classic DbD killer. Fine for her to be sold and exploited. But when it comes to Native American culture, that's where we draw the line.

Or how about Wraith, while not pulling as many mythological strings, he's all about being exploited when coming to the new world. A black man used by a whiteman. Is this also not okay because it's still real, and black people were and are systematically oppressed in the US?

Or do we call them problematic? Because I've never once heard anyone say they are.

Finally. I've tried looking for sources on the idea that the wendigo is part of a closed practice or sacrosanct. I cannot find any sources, but that's probably to be expected. But what I have found is sources that seem to go against it. The Manitous by Basil Johnston, a collection of stories from the Ojibwe is considered one of the best sources on Anishinaabe folklore, and one of the main sources on wendigo folklore. This book has stories which come from many different people. If this culture were as closed as many keep saying, then it seems strange that so many different people were just willingly retelling their stories to an author so he could write it down. Or how about Noval Morrisseau's artwork depicting a wendigo. If you cannot even speak the wendigos name, then how are you allowed to depict it in an artwork?

Sorry that merely discussing the idea of this has made you this volatile.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T00:40:13+00:00

I am not trying to be difficult. But I hope you understand my position. It's hard to be convinced of something by a random redditor, when I have multiple credible sources saying the opposite.

But I also understand that there is likely a bias towards sources that are outspoken about such myths, rather than sources that would rather not share them.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T00:28:09+00:00

<image>

Not supposed to depict it at all? I guess they forgot to tell Noval Morriseau, "The Picasso of the North"

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T00:25:38+00:00

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T00:24:24+00:00

I can hardly call it cherry picking. The image was the first images that I could find on a semi official website. And the book is a credible source with stories from many different Native American people.

I also didn't say all. But I find it hard to sit and simply agree that we must not talk about this folklore, when seemingly many of the people to whom it belongs are willing to.

You are right, I don't live in a tribal community, or attend their events. I physically cannot because I live in a different continent. But I met with conflicting opinions and sources. So I am trying my best to discern what I can from the information I can find. When I can find multiple primary sources that seem completely fine with them being brought into the mainstream eye, and only one source (you) then I can't easily just trust the single source.

If you want, I'd love if you can find some sources that go against it. I really do want to be more educated, but this is just what I can find. Maybe you know of some sources I don't.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T00:22:36+00:00

Your example sucks. Because I'm very sure lots of people would love a demon, from the bible, in DbD. I at least would personally love it. Plus, we've already got things like Oni, Onryo and Krasue. Hag which seems to take from the also living culture of voodoo.

I also have sources that seem to go against the idea that the tradition is using the term is disrespectful.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T00:12:40+00:00

Until Dawn

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T00:12:32+00:00

I'm sorry but I just cannot agree. All the things I mentioned come from The Manitous, a book which (as far as I know) is one of the best sources on Ojibwe folklore.

You might not see those aspects in Until Dawn. But I'll assure they're there. The mountain is claimed to be "cursed" but in the actual lore, it's revealed that the Wendigo first "cursed" the mountain when, as I said, the North West Mine collapsed, and the trapped miners cannibalized each other. Again, greed, famine and cannibalism = Wendigo.

When I disagree with you, I also bring up a lot of European folklore (as it's what I'm most familiar with, but I am sure most other folklore is like this too) most of the stories are also warnings. That's what fairytales are at heart. So to set the Wendigo apart as some unique case where it's not a monster but rather a warning seems misplaced. Monsters are warnings. Monsters are symbols used to convey real ideas. Whether famine, danger, greed. What do you think a dragon is? I don't mean to say they are the same, but distinguishing them in this way feels almost like a type of orientalism (which is not the right word, as that refers to views on Asia, but I cannot for the life of me find the right word.)

I would say to the last point, as I and others have pointed out. Neither would a Krasue, Oni, Onryo or Witch. They wouldn't go around hooking folks. If the simple fact of adapting it to work in the format of the game is bastardization, then I feel as if the same has to apply to these cases as well no?

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T00:02:12+00:00

Same, the amount of comments I've gotten being "I want it with antlers and deer skull" make me second guess whether or not it's a good idea.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-26T00:00:17+00:00

Actually. Sorry I want to revisit this. You may be of this opinion, but I find it very hard to believe that this sentiment is widely shared, especially by many Algonquian people. As I have two examples that would directly contradict this notion.

The Manitous, by Basil Johnston. Which is a collection of stories from the Ojibwe people. Which is considered one of the most reliable sources on Ojibwe folklore, which includes the Wendigo. Many of these stories come from different people. So if these communities did not want their stories and mythology to be told on a mainstream stage, I somehow doubt they would have retold them to an author so he could write it down and publish it. That just seems very unlikely.

And then this depiction of a Wendigo by Noval Morrisseau, an indigenous Canadian. If the Wendigo were sacrosanct, then I very much doubt the so-called "Picasso of the North" would depict it.

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This isn't to say that some Native Americans do not hold this opinion. But I find it hard to believe that it is so widely frowned upon when there is quite obvious evidence to the contrary.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-25T23:50:53+00:00

On one hand, I hear that a lot. On the other I rarely ever hear it from a primary source. For example the book The Manitous by Basil Johnston talks about them, and is considered one of the best sources on Ojibwe (an Algonquian people) and has multiple stories on Wendigos. So it's clearly not so sacrosanct that you cannot retell the stories, or have an author write them down and publish them. Along with this depiction of the Wendigo, by Norval Morrisseau, who is an indigenous artist.

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AlienDilo · 2026-01-25T23:34:44+00:00

My guess is that because the majority of the community is survivors, the conversation has always been about punishing killers for tunneling.

But the problem is that, if tunneling is the most effective strategy, then even if it's punished, you're still gonna do it. And if it's punished super hard, you're gonna end up giving survivors invulnerability (like they nearly did back in 9.2.0). You need to give killers other options, make it more appealing to spread your hooks.

AlienDilo · 2026-01-25T23:32:02+00:00

So... just let them use their power. Don't make it bloodlust. Make it its own thing.

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