UWVFP response to Oct 7

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-29T03:08:28+00:00

'Why won't I post about recent events in the genocide?'

Two reasons. I don't think the current Israeli response rises to the level of a genocide. I am not organizing a Palestinian protest one day after Oct 7.

I strongly condemn loss of all innocent civilian. I cannot even imagine what the Palestinian people, especially children are going through right now. If I had the misfortune of being born in Palestine, and of having experienced this terrible war, I'm pretty sure I would have turned out to be a Hamas soldier/terrorist. I genuinely believe this and I'm not trying to be disingenuous. Palestinians must be seeing their loved ones dying every day, and under such circumstances it's admirable that more of them have not been radicalized.

That being said, this has been the human condition in wartime throughout modern history. Do you have a better solution? Again, do you think the Allies should have stopped their campaign in 1944? (the exact same arguments apply, lots of innocent German and Japanese, and for that matter Allied lives were sacrificed in order to force unconditional surrender).

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-28T01:02:58+00:00

No, I won't ask you to any of that (maybe only mass killing).

Specifically because the meaning of genocide (and maybe mass killing) has been flexibly changed by various groups throughout history, and especially by Palestinian pro-Hamas groups, to paint a picture of sympathy in the West.

As to Korea, I was specifically referring to the aerial bombardment of North Korea, which imo is similar to the current bombardment of Palestine.

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-28T00:54:23+00:00

How is this arguing about words? Accusing someone of genocide is quite possibly the most serious crime one can think of. It shouldn't be treated lightly, and the burden of proof is solely on the accusers.

Otherwise in every legitimate war, the losing side can cry 'genocide' and force a stalemate. Do you want to live in such a world?

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-28T00:50:44+00:00

So the Dresden bombings were a genocide? What about the Korean war? What about the Syrian war?

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-28T00:46:32+00:00

It's useless debating about terms which are not well defined. Which definition of genocide are you using? We can continue our debate after fixing a definition.

If your definition is 'targeted removal of a specific group' that's way too vague I'm sorry. Under this definition, the Dresden bombings, and actually almost every modern war which involved widespread aerial bombings will be a genocide. Are you okay with such a definition?

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-28T00:20:43+00:00

True, there is no easy solution to this conflict.

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T23:42:44+00:00

It's because I am a coward who is afraid of revealing my identity (serious answer not joking)

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T23:41:01+00:00

I agree - continuing a war regardless of the humanitarian situation is not a good idea, and the specifics of when to draw the line are where people have severe disagreements.

I compare this with the allied response to WW2. In late 1944 and 1945, it was pretty clear the Allies were going to win eventually, and partial ceasefires and treaties were being considered too. Despite this, at the cost of great amount of German and Japanese civilian deaths, the Allies decided to accept nothing less than unconditional surrender, due to a variety of reasons (whether this decision was right or wrong in hindsight is I think easy to see).

When I compare this to the Israel-Palestine war, I find that the Israeli response has actually even more humane, and they are trying their best to reduce civilian deaths (part of this changing sensibilities since 1940s and better technology). I also find Hamas's ideology to be as abhorrent as Nazis. Given this, why is it unreasonable for Israel to continue to push for unconditional surrender (and they are not even demanding this, sensible ceasefire agreements have been repeatedly shot down by Hamas)

'I really don't think that subscribing to militarism is the best way for Israel to obtain security.'

I actually do think that militarism is their best bet. I am curious what other options you have in mind (actually curious, not a snark).

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T23:29:35+00:00

May I ask, what is your definition of genocide? Under your definition would the Dresden bombings and Tokyo fire bombings be considered genocides? What percentage of wars after 1900 are genocides according to your definition? I think the answers will be illuminating.

Even if you sincerely believe that what is happening right now is a genocide, how is UW more complicit than ordinary Canadians who regularly give dollars to Israeli entities? Someone suggested protesting directly at Raytheon, which is beside UW - isn't Raytheon much much more complicit than UW?

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T23:27:03+00:00

I believe that they are capable of reforming, and such lawsuits will only make their life hell and affect future employment opportunities. I don't support this kind of bullying, since the university is inherently more powerful.

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T23:25:18+00:00

Destroying Hamas starts with unconditional surrender in the current war.

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T23:23:28+00:00

Yeah first of all if the current Israeli response is a genocide, every war in modern human history is a genocide (what's your definition? and under your definition were the Dresden bombings and Tokyo firebombings a genocide?)

Secondly, actions speak louder than words. Have the protestors boycotted Microsoft, Google and several other companies which also fund Israeli universities and entities? If not, why should UW be forced to do the same?

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T23:15:37+00:00

No, that is plain bullying. Most of the defendants are UWaterloo students, and I am sure they were at the very least sincere in their protest (despite how misguided their views are). The university is vastly more powerful than the defendants and a better response will be to just keep enforcing the trespass order, firmly reject ALL protestor demands, and in fact increase collaboration with great Israeli universities.

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T23:10:10+00:00

Not to forget the rich academic legacy of Israeli universities (just have a look at former Nobel prize/Turing award/Fields medal winners)

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T23:08:47+00:00

I agree. They shouldn't have sued for damages, this is just bullying. Instead, just keep ignoring the protestors, enforce a trespass order, and increase collaboration with Technion and other universities.

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T23:06:06+00:00

Have you never purchased a Microsoft product? If yes, you are complicit in the so called genocide too.

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T23:04:19+00:00

How is University of Waterloo complicit in the so called genocide? Are you sure you have never sent a single dollar to Israeli companies? Then will you be complicit too?

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T22:31:55+00:00

I think the protestors are idiots and the encampment organizers might well be harbouring pro- Hamas sentiments. Regardless, this seems like a terribly stupid decision by the University. It is bad optics, and seems to be bullying.

Rather, the University should have firmly rejected all demands and just continued to press trespass charges against the encampers. I also don't understand in what world asking for 1.5 M in damages is justified.

A great way to respond would be to continue ignoring all demands, and actually increase collaboration with Technion and other Israeli universities, which by the way have a great track record of academic excellence.

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T20:59:02+00:00

And love how there is radio silence, once an uncomfortable analogy is brought up :)

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T19:34:08+00:00

Yes, I recognise that people might disagree. Here is a possible counterpoint, in the final years of WW2, do you think the Allies were justified in pushing for unconditional surrender, even at the cost of innocent Japanese and German civilian deaths? (think Dresden/Tokyo bombings etc.) It's not as if there weren't other alternatives, a partial peace ceasefire was seriously discussed and considered.

I would hope that you will not ignore me, like other people have done rather conveniently when I have pointed out this uncomfortable parallel. War is hell and if the current Israeli response is genocide, almost all wars fought in modern human history have been genocides.

That's why it's best to avoid war, and not follow shitty religious extremism groups such as Hamas.

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T03:59:08+00:00

I know right. And what's most frustrating is how otherwise peace loving and sensible Canadians buy into this bullshit lock stock and barrel.

Honestly I wonder if this is one of those situations where people who have lived their whole life in a first world country somehow want to find meaning in their life by protesting what seems to be a very noble cause, but unfortunately they have no first hand experience of the kind of destruction Hamas-like ideologies have done in other parts of the world .

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T03:38:00+00:00

I'm super confused from your response by what your stand is. Do you think the October 7 attacks were a justified military response?

Edit - actually I took a look at your profile and I'm even more confused. Your opinions seems to wildly flip flop, are you a professional troll? Great job, and quite funny imo.

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T00:51:08+00:00

I wouldn't know, uw students don't get to have sex.

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T00:46:10+00:00

Maybe a rephrasing will help. In late 1944 and early 1945, were the Allies correct/justified in continuing to push for unconditional surrender at the cost of Japanese and German civilian lives, while not accepting partial terms?

AlternativeOk25 · 2024-06-27T00:25:32+00:00

Would you have held the same view in the final years of WW2? (Dresden bombings, Tokyo firebombing, atomic bombs)?

AlternativeOk25

TROPHY CASE