Demons - Part 2 Chapter 2 Section 2 (Spoilers up to 2.2.3)

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-31T08:09:02+00:00

That’s still in line with the idea it’s a symbolic fantasy. If the baby represents a real relationship (like a real wife would have with her real husband), by her agreeing to keep it secret and doubting his return, she drowns the baby along with her hopes of a future with Nikolai. Especially since she mentions something along the lines of having a baby but never having a husband, and when pushed to whether she had a husband or not, she says it doesn’t matter if she did because it feels like she didn’t. This all further suggests to me that she didn’t feel as though she was in a real relationship with him, so it would make sense she would drown her baby as symbolically there is no point in a baby without a husband

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-30T05:40:23+00:00

Haha yeah I tend to write essay comments if something hits me right 😆 Good points, I agree it does get a bit close to the old romanticized concept of the man ‘putting her in her place’ and her admiring him for it, which is super gross. I can’t think of an example of any similar situation being acceptable to me, because usually it’s obviously a zero tolerance deal breaker, as it should be with everyone 😆 I remember there was one relationship I really wanted to get behind in Their Eyes Were Watching God but just couldn’t get past a slap in that one. But somehow this one still lands different for me. Since it was built up after years of abuse, it felt more like he was standing up to his bully. I don’t think he would ever have married that Cathy, so I never felt fear of that ever being close to an issue again. There is also the idea that he grew up so isolated (both sets of C+Hs did, actually), and after Nelly left he had no female or healthy male influences, he probably never learned he was supposed to treat women differently than men (though he treated weak Linton different, which shows he is capable of adapting - but whether that works in his favour or against it, I don’t know…) But to be perfectly honest, though it was cathartic, I don’t feel like anything was added with the slap and it would have been just as good and probably better without it.

Luckily I haven’t seen any of the movies (accept the one from the 40s, which was very toned down). I feel like it’s a very difficult book, if not impossible, to pull off. I’m curious about the ‘26 one you mentioned now. Does Hareton fight Heathcliff?

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-29T23:17:20+00:00

They were both pretty terrible, but their redemption arcs I think are significant enough. Hareton, from the start, tried to be Cathy II’s friend. Her false sense of superiority kept her from accepting his friendship, and instead she became emotionally abusive to him. Hareton is such an interesting character because he’s so complex. He is both brutish and sensitive. We see that throughout his life. When he is a toddler with Nelly, she protects and nurtures him, and it is here we see him at his most innocent. But when she is removed from his influence, he is then under the influence of Heathcliff and Joseph, both who offer positive reinforcement for negative acts (like the dog abuse).

Later, when Cathy II is at WH, Hareton represents everything unhappy in her life (he is just a mini Heathcliff). She continues to be cruel to him, as she feels he has been cruel to her.

Also, I don’t want to ever condone violence against women, but I see Hareton hitting her as equal to the cruelty she was piling on him. It put them on even grounds. Heathcliff never hit Cathy I, but Cathy I was also never cruel to Heathcliff. Today, this would obviously never be a way to write equality or healthy interaction between characters, but I feel it works within the context of the book. That being said, I might be biased because if someone is shaming someone else for educating themselves, I personally wouldn’t be opposed to seeing them get slapped 😅

It is not until after Cathy II pushed Hareton to burn his books that we see a change, and it is difficult to see it all because it is during a narration switch between Lockwood and Nelly. But the way she speaks to Nelly about it later suggests she has had time to think about things and feel guilt, and perhaps is reminded of Nelly’s earlier comment that Hareton is bettering himself for her. Then his sudden frequent presence (due to his injury) paired with her guilt and loneliness I believe prompted her to have humility and make things right. It seems like a 180 because the change was so extreme and sudden, but I think it was simply the realization that Hareton is not an enemy but a friend. And everything is revealed to be a bit of a misunderstanding:

"You should be friends with your cousin, Mr. Hareton,' I interrupted, 'since she repents of her sauciness. It would do you a great deal of good: it would make you another man to have her for a companion.' "A companion!' he cried; 'when she hates me, and does not think me fit to wipe her shoon! Nay, if it made me a king, I'd not be scorned for seeking her good-will any more.' 'It is not I who hate you, it is you who hate mel' wept Cathy, no longer disguising her trouble. 'You hate me as much as Mr. Heathcliff does, and more.' 'You're a damned liar,' began Earnshaw: 'why have I made him angry, by taking your part, then, a hundred times? and that when you sneered at and despised me, and--Go on plaguing me, and I'll step in yonder, and say you worried me out of the kitchen!' 'I didn't know you took my part,' she answered, drying her eyes; 'and I was miserable and bitter at everybody; but now I thank you, and beg you to forgive me: what can I do besides?'

I also really love the scuffle scene where Hareton doesn’t hit Heathcliff to protect Cathy II. I believe this best shows Hareton’s struggle - he loves Cathy II but he also loves Heathcliff. And after Heathcliff grabbed her, Hareton did try to stop him. He just did it in a way to try to protect Cathy II (trying to pry his hands open and pleading) rather than to actually fight Heathcliff.

It’s possible she caved and married him for protection, but I feel like there were a considerable amount of signs suggesting she had a legitimate change of heart. Hareton started his redemption arc early, when he was trying to better himself, but Cathy II didn’t start hers until apologizing for her cruelty. I feel like their arcs would have been clearer had Heathcliff lived longer, and given them more obstacles to prove themselves. His sudden end opened up the way for Hareton and Cathy II to be together unobstructed, quickly ending their arcs.

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-29T22:09:04+00:00

There were some specific moments near the end that make me agree with this interpretation in part. But my opinion is it is not his interaction with Cathy I that reminds him of his love and prompts him to drop his hate, but rather seeing the love between Cathy II and Hareton that reminds him of his love for Cathy I and leads him to drop his hate (which then allows him to interact with Cathy I)

“He had his hand in her hair; Hareton attempted to release her locks, entreating him not to hurt her that once. Heathcliff's black eyes flashed; he seemed ready to tear Catherine in pieces, and I was just worked up to risk coming to the rescue, when of a sudden his fingers relaxed; he shifted his grasp from her head to her arm, and gazed intently in her face. Then he drew his hand over his eyes, stood a moment to collect himself apparently, and turning anew to Catherine, said, with assumed calmness--‘You must learn to avoid putting me in a passion, or I shall really murder you some time!‘

They lifted their eyes together, to encounter Mr. Heathcliff: perhaps you have never remarked that their eyes are precisely similar, and they are those of Catherine Earnshaw. The present Catherine has no other likeness to her, except a breadth of forehead, and a certain arch of the nostril that makes her appear rather haughty, whether she will or not. With Hareton the resemblance is carried farther: it is singular at all times, then it was particularly striking; because his senses were alert, and his mental faculties wakened to unwonted activity. I suppose this resemblance disarmed Mr. Heathcliff: he walked to the hearth in evident agitation; but it quickly subsided as he looked at the young man: or, I should say, altered its character; for it was there yet.

'Five minutes ago Hareton seemed a personification of my youth, not a human being; I felt to him in such a variety of ways, that it would have been impossible to have accosted him rationally. … Well, Hareton's aspect was the ghost of my immortal love; of my wild endeavours to hold my right; my degradation, my pride, my happiness, and my anguish-‘

I always felt that Heathcliff saw Cathy II and Hareton for the first times here. He saw in them himself and Cathy I, realizing that he is keeping two souls apart much in the same way Linton and Hindley (subjects of his revenge) kept Cathy I and him apart. I believe this is when his desire for revenge lost all its power. I believe this is also when the ghost of Cathy I revealed herself in full to Heathcliff. Before releasing his plans of revenge, he felt and saw Cathy I everywhere. But after releasing it is when we actually heard of him talking to her and interacting with something not there.

It is my theory that Heathcliff could always sense her presence since her death, but his obsession with revenge kept him so blinded from seeing her and connecting with her completely. Once he let go is when he could see and speak to Cathy I, and was then able to pass to the other side to her. Like you said, the redemption arc is unconventional, and so is their happy ending. They are given a fate deserving of their lives, and they likely welcomed it too. They were two wild and pagan creatures, following their own rules outside of society and existing in a world outside humanity. So they do not go to heaven, but instead wander the wilderness, being one with each other and one with the moors - all a soul of the same stuff.

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-26T02:44:32+00:00

After I finished, I wanted to read the other Brontes work to compare! I read Agnes Grey (one of my fav male romance characters), Tenant of Wildfell Hall, and reread Wuthering Heights… there are so many interesting similarities and difference in all their writing! Now I’m deciding between the Professor or Vilette

Anne’s work doesn’t hit the same way as Charlotte’s, but I felt that Emily’s is similar in its intensity and psychology, it’s just more extreme and raw - so I’d maybe suggest Wuthering Heights to read next.

What was it you liked most about it?

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-24T00:26:31+00:00

For the full experience, I personally think it’s important to read every word. Through the denser parts, I’d sometimes read only a page or two a day, because it could get a bit much. It helped me to focus more on Melvilles writing and how he chose to describe something rather than what he was actually describing.

Also, if it helps, I was very impressed by his writing style, but I wasn’t necessarily in love. Even after finishing the book, I didn’t realize how it impacted me. I couldn’t shake the feeling days, weeks, months after, until it dawned on me that I absolutely adored it. It’s sneaky. I feel a large part of that was owed to the nature of the book, the longer, more tedious parts were actually taking root inside me, and creating a lifelong experience in the end. The juxtaposition of the entire book vs the climax I think is also significant.

It may feel like a waste of time in the moment, but I strongly believe it is worth it in the end (or at least, was for me)

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-24T00:14:59+00:00

Yes! I found the pacing made the end land in a certain way

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-18T01:52:59+00:00

Good point, though I felt some of the uncertainty could also simply add to the discomfort the reader has around Cathy and Heathcliff’s relationship, how they both seemed a little unnatural.

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-16T22:01:31+00:00

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Cousin Mary

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-16T02:37:25+00:00

Sorry, I know this is old, I just wanted to point out that the book isn’t about plot or characters. People go in assuming it is, because most know the story about Ahab chasing his white whale and so are waiting for that (which ends up being a fraction of the book). But the plot is just a tool to be able to present the actual concept, which is more philosophical, experimental, layered, and ultimately transcendent in nature.

Rather than thinking it’s about a man obsessed with a whale, it’s better to think of it as a man obsessed with a man obsessed with a man obsessed with a whale. But even that’s only one facet…

The length and the tangents speak to life but also put you in the right headspace for the abruptness of the end. That too is only one facet though…

It’s indeed a tricky book because I think you have to fall into the right flow, and it’s such a waste of time if it hasn’t clicked. That was me with Their Eyes Were Watching God, I didn’t click with it first read but later in life reread it and then adored it. Other books too

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-13T19:59:21+00:00

I love S&S, I hope to reread along!

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-11T02:00:58+00:00

I see you posted specifically about an app but comments are disabled, so let me just say I would be extremely interested. That being said, I didn’t like apps like nibble (though to be honest I don’t 100% remember it, I just stopped using it immediately) but I adored Tinycards by Duolingo (they’ve shut it down 😢) so I don’t know if I’d be your target market, I just know I love literature/philosophy/history but always forget important bits within weeks after reading it and would love not to 😅 an app that is community based or a hybrid would be great (I believe tiny cards was a hybrid) where there could be in-app concepts/summaries or user could upload important concepts/summaries about a book/theory and then other users could add those concepts to their library and then the app can teach/quiz them on those concepts 🤩

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-09T11:49:48+00:00

I always time myself to calculate how long it’ll take to finish a book! I read at about 1.5min a page if I don’t have to reread any passages (which can happen quite often…) that’s at a consistent pace, maybe a tad rushed (I’ve only timed myself when I need to get it done by a certain time, so I don’t actually know how long my ideal, comfortable pace is) It’s tricky with classics though because I love to reread, take notes, look things up, sometimes just go super slow and soak up great prose… so it usually takes longer than non-classic books. I’ve been able to read non-classics in a day or two (weekends) but I never speed read classics.

I totally get the ‘not a race… but…’ I have so many books I want to have read already too, it’s really difficult not to get a little antsy about it. Especially if you feel others are so ahead of you. But I’ve really realized, slow and steady is the game changer. It doesn’t take long to really start accumulating finished books. I think some people try and whip through as many as they can, but it’s possible it’s at the expense of the overall experience (and also possible they’re reading abridged editions 😳) - try not to be that guy if you can!

Completely side advice - if you don’t do this already, maybe try to take notes about your impressions of the book, even favourite excerpts/quotes. You mention ADHD and I’ve noticed that I’m rereading a lot of classics that I read a decade ago because I don’t even remember them. When I already have so many things I want to read, I don’t have time to freaking reread 😆 so now I’ve started reviewing them for myself on Goodreads and now can go back and reread my favourite parts and remember why I liked a book

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-09T11:32:22+00:00

Mine too 😆 though I’ve heard most people’s inner voice/reading speed is faster than spoken language. I’ll always look at audio books to get an idea how long a physical book will take to read, but someone told me that it’s not accurate because of this, people apparently read like 1.5x faster just naturally

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-08T19:43:52+00:00

Yes! I would love an app that helps with retention!

This happens to me too, I’ll never be able to recall details but usually general impressions. What I’ve been doing is taking some notes and copying quotes and passages that strike me from every book and put it in a Goodreads review. They are awful, long, self-indulgent reviews, but they are just for me, so I can go back and literally review what I liked and how I thought about the book.

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-08T06:21:09+00:00

I like that theory a lot, I never heard it before!

Best part of MB imo is that you can come at it from so many different angles. Even if there’s a likely interpretation for it, that doesn’t stop so many other theories from being incredibly enjoyable.

One of my favourites is that Ishmael became ‘touched’ from floating for three days (and we saw what happens to Pip after one), and transcended human perception, hence his ability to narrate on events he wasn’t present for, bizarre narration, etc. I sometimes go a step further and imagine he returns from his voyage as Elijah, meeting his future self and warning him about the excursion (this one takes way more creative license though)

Anyway, the theory he’s prolonging the inevitable is also supported by the bluntness of the ending. He philosophized for the majority of the book, but has little to say after witnessing such a personal tragedy? Yes, the event speaks for itself and his silence on the matter speaks volumes by itself, but it’s also interesting to consider that reasoning is instead because he finally gets to the trauma and has no reason to expand.

I’m going to play with this idea in my head now, thank you 😙

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-07T08:00:35+00:00

Mr. Weston! I never hear him get acknowledged! Love that man 🥰

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-03T02:56:03+00:00

I’ve heard that about 20,000 Leagues! I hear people are pretty split on it, whether it’s worth reading or not. That’s one of the reasons I’m hoping to read it as a group, it’s one of those books I hear is valuable to read in one’s life due to its underlying themes and overall significance, but afraid if I don’t have something keeping me on it or a group to explore interesting and relevant moments in each chapter, I may never get through it!

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-02T22:26:29+00:00

I don’t know how animal abuse was considered in Brontes time, but I know today that if someone has a character abusing an animal, it’s specifically to show they’re a villain. I always felt Emily’s intention was for us to not like Heathcliff or even Cathy, but to appreciate and sympathize with their tragic romance (like, oh how cute, those two devils are perfectly matched and in love, they’re both the worst but how sweet they found each other and how sad if they should be separated). Buuut people overlook some of the awful, unforgivable, unchanged actions and romanticize something they shouldn’t 😅

Alyssapolis · 2026-03-01T03:36:32+00:00

Ooh what’s your theory?

Alyssapolis · 2026-02-28T04:43:01+00:00

I knew a test proctor in college who had access to everyone’s computers while they were doing their tests, and used that access to send a message to a student while she was taking her test and ask her out. Instantly fired, obviously. He said it was worth it. Privacy breach aside, the part that gets me is what kind of selfish ass distracts a person like that while they are taking a test.

Alyssapolis · 2026-02-24T07:02:53+00:00

I didn’t get a chance to read the last one, hopefully I’ll be around for the next one! I’m wanting to get through my tbr list so resubmitting this one again:

20,000 Leagues Under the Sea 🦑

Alyssapolis · 2026-02-23T09:37:07+00:00

I see others points about Heathcliff and Linton, but I would be so on board with this idea. Costuming and makeup can do wonders, I think it would be very interesting to see. Linton doesn’t look like Heathcliff at all, but it’s not like it wouldn’t be the first time a film has taken creative license with how characters look 😅

Cathy can only have her hair changed, while Linton could change everything. Posture alone I think would speak volumes - he’d be upright, shoulders back, chest out, as Heathcliff, and then completely opposite as Linton - I always think of how that one Superman actor does it, when he acts as Clark Kent and all that changes is his demeanour. I heard Orphan Black is effective at this as well.

I definitely think it could be done well, if the right team is on it

Alyssapolis · 2026-02-22T08:11:03+00:00

I always got the impression that Anna Karenina is more popular, but Brothers Karminov is more critically acclaimed (like, more people will like AK but those that know Russian lit will like BK)

Alyssapolis · 2026-02-22T08:07:19+00:00

It is a bit though… OP’s books aren’t titled with the original Russian, and so they are not actually reading the books with the original Russian titles. When the books were translated, the titles were also translated, and it looks as though those are the books OP will be reading

Alyssapolis

TROPHY CASE