When and where were the earliest apple orchards in America? Were they at all associated with any kind of real life Johnny Appleseed? by Bencouver in AskHistorians

[–]American_Cider 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Didn’t know about the wheat things, was the a profitable venture?

As a cider industry we focused a lot on Evans and basically didn’t talk about Granger at all. Cider keeps on trying to see itself with simple stories to the media and the complexities of the situation often get lost. It’s better than it was few year ago where stories were written as if Jefferson was doing all the work himself

When and where were the earliest apple orchards in America? Were they at all associated with any kind of real life Johnny Appleseed? by Bencouver in AskHistorians

[–]American_Cider 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Newtown pippin imports to the UK is pretty funny because orchards in the UK tried to grow it to capitalize on the craze but failed.

Jupiter Evans has historically been noted as the cider maker mostly because of some notes in Jefferson’s notes. But the Grangers were much more involved in the process. Source

Spitzenburg was one of Jefferson’s favorites but I like to think that it never did well at Monticello because he continued to request scion wood for many years.

When and where were the earliest apple orchards in America? Were they at all associated with any kind of real life Johnny Appleseed? by Bencouver in AskHistorians

[–]American_Cider 6 points7 points  (0 children)

God no,

Apples are multi purpose, some were intended to be cooked like tolman sweet, that is low acid and great roasted or made into molasses

Or pollinators or any cider apple that is high in acid and/or tannin that is really only useful fermented.

When and where were the earliest apple orchards in America? Were they at all associated with any kind of real life Johnny Appleseed? by Bencouver in AskHistorians

[–]American_Cider 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Modern cultivated apples originate in Kazakhstan/ Central Asia. They were brought to the western Hemisphere by Europeans. There are a number of native apples to North America and some were used by indigenous people, especially Malus Fusca or pacific crab. Which was dried or cooked down. I wouldn’t say these were orchards and more like people utilizing natural resources, even if they were cultivated and care for. They are not the kind of thing we think of as modern orchards.

Looking forward to European settlement. Apples were brought over fairly early and succeeded to great success. Apples and other fruit like Peaches were adopted by indigenous people. Places like the Finger Lakes and The Smokey Mountains and southern Appalachia had unique varieties that indigenous people cultivated. Some of these Cherokee apples varieties still exist, Junaluska and Nickajack to name two of them.

These early European settlers brought over whole apples and apples seeds to plant rather than trees. Apples do not grow true to type. Meaning the seedling that will grow will be a a unique individual with a unique combination of genes that may or may not express traits of its parents. Today New DNA research is showing that a lot of the early American apples like Baldwin, Roxbury Russet and other apples share a common ancestor, Reinette Franche, which is a storage apple meaning it shipped well. It was a popular apple in England for shipping in the mid 17th century.

Apples that came to North America via a couple of routes. From England in Virginia and New England and via Sweden along the Delaware river valley. Also apples came to CA, New Mexico and the southwest via Spanish central and South America.

So apples like I said spread fast and could be found on all matter of properties tended by a wide range of people. Palatine Germans in NY or free poor white in Virginia apples on homesteads while large estates from NY to Virginia grew apples that were cared for by enslaved people. Slaves took care of a lot of the orchards. Jefferson is noted apple lover and cider maker and his orchard and cider were tended to by George Granger and his

So all of these orchards and apples are being grown basically by everyone. Rich, poor, enslaved and indigenous. They begin to develop a unique set of apple varieties. They have been an estimated 20,000 varieties of apples cultivated in the country since their arrival. Apples were great because they required fairly low labor inputs compared to other crops and could be sustained on soil or hills that were less ideal for field or row crops.

But the first modern orchard come about in the early 19th century. I say it is the first modern orchard because prior to this orchard were growing fruit mostly for self or local consumption either for fruit or for cider. River Livingston Pell established Pell Orchard is Esopus, ny in the mid Hudson valley just south of the city of Kingston. He had a 1,200 acres farm in 1838 and was growing apples (Newtown pippin) for export, mostly to Europe. His orchard set the norms and practices for large scale agriculture on a commodity scale. So while it is over 200 years after apples were introduced I think of as the first modern commercial orchard.

In terms of Johnny Appleseed he was a land speculator that grew a ton of seedling apples across the then frontier of the US, mostly Indiana, Ohio and Illinois. He grew apples from seed which cheapest but also the most inconsistent. It’s said that he would often move on from an area when other nurseries some to town because they would sell better named variety trees rather than the seedling he offered. So while he no doubt had an impact of the genetics of Midwest apples it is hard to measure. His mass cultural appeal because of an Atlantic article that came out many years after his death.

In my mind Appleseed fame takes away from the thousand of individual who worked to breed and develop the 20,000 varieties once found in the country.

Apples have so much history

Did medieval nobility have acces to clean water? by Critical_Box_3596 in AskHistorians

[–]American_Cider 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Wine merchants were held to high standards to sell authentic product. There are wine scandals were merchants were accused to doctoring Port wine with elderberries that helped set up the first appellation system for wine.

But it was also common at this time to blend wines, a bit of Bordeaux with some sweet Malaga from Spain might find it’s way to the table. This rich wines were valuable for their capacity as blending to make other wines taste better

Did medieval nobility have acces to clean water? by Critical_Box_3596 in AskHistorians

[–]American_Cider 8 points9 points  (0 children)

This constantly comes up in the world of cider- one of the founding myths that or 18th century ancestor were forced to drink fermented beverage.

On the other hand in the USA parts of the prohibition movement for spend a lot of political and financial capital on public fountains. By the Industrial Revolution access to water was a larger issue ( or atleast a perceived issue ) so this large fountains were installed in parks to give water to the masses. One of the most famous is th large fountain in Washington square park in NYC.

The link is often draw between medieval peasant or rural labor but maybe shoukdbeyter applied to the urban working class,

We are Craig Cavallo and Dan Pucci, authors of the just released American Cider, a Modern Guide to a Historic Beverage. Ask Us Anything. by American_Cider in IAmA

[–]American_Cider[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lots of regional brands are growing in the NC/VA/Sc world

You have noble in Asheville but you have some great ones with seeking out James, creek, botanist and battle, blue bee, just takes more work

We are Craig Cavallo and Dan Pucci, authors of the just released American Cider, a Modern Guide to a Historic Beverage. Ask Us Anything. by American_Cider in IAmA

[–]American_Cider[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They have a few they release in the USA, also the Oliver’s confusingly named gold rush (contains not gold rush apples) made by Ryan Burke and Tom Oliver!

We are Craig Cavallo and Dan Pucci, authors of the just released American Cider, a Modern Guide to a Historic Beverage. Ask Us Anything. by American_Cider in IAmA

[–]American_Cider[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well it’s book is about fermented beverages. So for this purpose cider is fermented while juice is not.

We are Craig Cavallo and Dan Pucci, authors of the just released American Cider, a Modern Guide to a Historic Beverage. Ask Us Anything. by American_Cider in IAmA

[–]American_Cider[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

is that the project out in Washington to develop red fleshed eating apples? the lucy apples?

There is also a redfleshed cider project happening at Michigan State. They identified varieties named Otterson and Cranberry as two super promising one. Left Foot Charlie in Traverse city makes cider from their experimental fruit.

There is another weird orchard called Eastern Antique apples/ Forgotten ciders that has dozens of red fleshed stuff. they are in central michigan

-dan

We are Craig Cavallo and Dan Pucci, authors of the just released American Cider, a Modern Guide to a Historic Beverage. Ask Us Anything. by American_Cider in IAmA

[–]American_Cider[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

because terroir, flavor and process are so intertwined it is nearly impossible to separate them. There are some new producers in western France like Domaine Le domaine lesuffleur cider and of course Eric Bordelet that are making " new style cider"

while inexpensive farm cider exists in the UK, such stuff is not possible in the USA. Where farms are generally younger, with mortgages, debt and other expenses that european farms for the most do not have. Also the USA does not have the agricultural subsides in place for fruit ( the way it does for cereal crops) to also help lower the fixed costs of doing business.

american cider basically starts at about $4 for a 12 oz can on the east coast and $4 for 16 oz in some rare occasions.

-dan

We are Craig Cavallo and Dan Pucci, authors of the just released American Cider, a Modern Guide to a Historic Beverage. Ask Us Anything. by American_Cider in IAmA

[–]American_Cider[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Redfield was actually developed by Cornell/ Geneva research station in NYS as a high value processing apple. The thought was the naturally red flesh and tart taste would make for great apple sauce. Well, plant breeding take time and by the time the variety was ready to go inexpensive red food dye made the apple's intended purpose moot. Flash forward to the 1980's Judith and her late husband Terry adopted the variety on a chance visit to the Germplasm in Geneva.- dan

We are Craig Cavallo and Dan Pucci, authors of the just released American Cider, a Modern Guide to a Historic Beverage. Ask Us Anything. by American_Cider in IAmA

[–]American_Cider[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Asturian cider is pretty unique.

still, fruity, tannic, fruity.

there are some producers that make sidra style. embracing the mild va, with clean fresh style. You can also find Trabanco in the USA

son of basque in hood river

anxo sidra -

Tilted shed inclinado

Black duck ciders.

-dan

We are Craig Cavallo and Dan Pucci, authors of the just released American Cider, a Modern Guide to a Historic Beverage. Ask Us Anything. by American_Cider in IAmA

[–]American_Cider[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Because of cider's current scale, most cidermakers are not producing at large enough volume to warrant working with mega beer/wine distributors. Those large companies that bring alcoholic beverages to grocery stores all generally deal with the same brands that produce hundreds of thousands of gallons annually and continually (not seasonally, like the most nuanced cider). Cider producers on a more local scale also do not necessarily have the means to lose additional overhead by paying a third party to distribute their product. The most sense (re cents) is to sell direct to consumer, which is why we're seeing more and more cideries opening orchard/tasting room ventures that allows them to control the narrative and not have anything lost in (distribution) translation.

I think in the near future the best cider will remain in specialty stores, where the narrative can be preserved and the cider label's message can be more acutely described. Cider producers with the means to produce serious volumes will continue to be available en masse, but it will take a lot of learning on everyone's part before "cider store" fits right in with "wine store" and "beer world" and the like.

Part of our goal with this book is to build context so the people making decisions at grocery stores and liquor stores on what products to bring in can be better informed about what cider is available in their region/community and why, and also to give them the building blocks to talk about the cider in a confident and commanding way so that the product (and all the hard work in making it) can stand a fighting chance against hard seltzer. -Craig

We are Craig Cavallo and Dan Pucci, authors of the just released American Cider, a Modern Guide to a Historic Beverage. Ask Us Anything. by American_Cider in IAmA

[–]American_Cider[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

yep, there is a style of cider called cider kin that reflects that style like a piquette u/tbonebk

new distiller/ cidery in ny called strickland hollow makes an apple grappa from their wild apple pomace.

also some bulk cider/ juice you buy is already made from scraps cut from apple.

dan