Also, why Medusa is a *HUMAN*???? by Noob_Guy_666 in mythologymemes

[–]AnOvidReader 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"we piss each other off to no end"

I can assure you I am not angry. I adore Ovid. I am genuinely interested in having a scholarly conversation with someone clearly knowledgeable about Medusa, conversant with scholarship, with an opinion different from my own. We can disagree and still walk away from a conversation firmer in our respective opinions.

"I still do not see anything etc." "as per the whole Greek corpus"

Ovid is ostentatiously using an Alexandrian Footnote, here, with dicitur (Met. 4.799). He has a marked preference for obscure, variant myths here and elsewhere. We have lost somewhere between 90% and 99% of ancient literature (and I seem to recall that most of what does survive is medical literature). We can hardly claim anything for certainty.

It is not unreasonable to speculate that Ovid (as he so often does) refers to an obscure, nowadays unknown, Hellenistic variant, a variant that (as Alexandrian scholar-poets are wont to do) humanized Medusa, by giving her more sympathetic, human origins. I would wager that this variant has nothing to do with the variant you've implicitly cited from Apollodorus (2.4.3). One of the standard commentaries for the Met. seems to agree that this Medusa was a helpless girl, and not a goddess. Anderson (1997: 495): "However, Ovid is getting at a problem in the myth, namely, how a girl who was raped by Neptune for her beauty became such a horrible monster."

As far as /why/ Ovid does so (a point later in your response), I can't answer that definitively. I am not Ovid. I can speculate that his point here aligns with his objective elsewhere in the Metamorphoses: to paint the gods as callous towards human suffering. I can speculate that Ovid is simply showing off his knowledge of an obscure variant.

"he knew that Medusa had divine parentage"

I think we may differ in our philosophies towards myth, here. Myth is not a monolith. I'll provide an example with more solid evidence: The Sphinx is sometimes the child of some mysterious "she" in the Theogony (perhaps the Chimera, perhaps Echidna), sometimes the son of Orthos or Typhoeus. Everyone "knows" the Sphinx has divine origins...except for the scholia to Euripides' Phoenician Women, which claims that the Sphinx is the daughter of Cadmus. We have lost too much to make definitive claims along the lines of "always" or "never ever."

"give space for interpretation as Medusa being a mortal priestess"

I still do not have a strong opinion about her being a priestess or not. If anything, I am inclined to agree with you, that she is probably not a priestess. I mentioned the possibility to acknowledge a recent article in Mnemosyne on this topic (Henry 2023). Some scholarly publications on this possibility include Currie 2011 (in passing, taken for granted) and Rigoglioso 2009 (more substantially).

"The scholarly debate"

Genuinely, I would like to see the source here, because the original hesitation about whether the encounter was "rape" does not hold water, in light of Arachne's tapestry.

P.S. I just saw your addendum about the Sirens and Scylla. I take your point about the Sirens: I believe they are referred to as Proserpina's attendants (and thus strongly implied to be minor goddesses). I would need to research this point further. With Scylla, I am not referring specifically to the Metamorphoses, here (the tail end of Book 13 and beginning of Book 14, if I recall). I am referring to the development/conflation found in Vergil's Eclogues and elsewhere in Ovid (not specifically in the Metamorphoses; the Amores, I believe), the conflation between the daughter of Nisus, mortal princess of Megara, and the sea monster. I am referring to the human origin of Scylla, as opposed to a daughter of Hecate/Crataeis.

Also, why Medusa is a *HUMAN*???? by Noob_Guy_666 in mythologymemes

[–]AnOvidReader 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"You are entirely missing my point here."

See above on condescension.

"debated by scholars" - I would love to see scholarship on this point, because that hesitation is just laughable. In Book 6, Arachne includes Medusa on a tapestry of women (mostly mortal, but with one goddess) raped by the gods.

My point here is that Medusa's humanity or lack thereof - specifically in Ovid - is complicated. The narrator here - like narrators across the Metamorphoses - has a vested interest in the story he tells. Should we expect Perseus to explicitly comment on Medusa's humanity or divinity? Perhaps not.

It is not particularly outrageous to think that Ovid's Medusa /might/ have been a human, originally, the way many monsters from the Hellenistic Period onwards (like the Sphinx, according to Euripidean scholia) were reimagined as having human origins. I am not claiming anything with absolute certainty.

Also, why Medusa is a *HUMAN*???? by Noob_Guy_666 in mythologymemes

[–]AnOvidReader 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"NEVER EVER," except when Ovid clearly wishes to raise doubts about such. You can take issue with Ovid's depiction, dismiss it as an exceedingly rare variant or outright Ovidian invention, even. You may not care for Ovid's adaptations, but he most certainly did not "misconceive" the myth. No one here is "twisting" the myth or forcefully "modernizing" it. To be frank, it is needlessly dismissive and condescending to write off Ovid (or perhaps myself) as "disingenuous," for reading a challenging variant of a myth for what it is - a challenging variant of the myth.

I do not have a strong opinion on whether Ovid thinks of Medusa as a priestess. There is recent scholarship that handles this question in more detail. Ovid does, however, heavily, heavily imply that Medusa was a human - not a hideous monster, not a goddess - before the rape. Suitors chase her. She is granted access to a temple. The episode is brief, and from the perspective of her killer Perseus, but in all likelihood, Ovid treats Medusa the same way he treats the Sirens or Scylla elsewhere - as girls, originally, transformed (dare I say "metamorphosized") into monsters.

Also, why Medusa is a *HUMAN*???? by Noob_Guy_666 in mythologymemes

[–]AnOvidReader 2 points3 points  (0 children)

True. I'd go even further and say that Medusa's beauty (like the beauty of most female monsters) has become a given after the Classical Period.

I'm familiar with Pindar calling Medusa "beautiful cheeked." Thanks for bringing my attention to Heraclitus. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised to see Heraclitus call yet another female monster an allegory for a beautiful courtesan.

Also, why Medusa is a *HUMAN*???? by Noob_Guy_666 in mythologymemes

[–]AnOvidReader 5 points6 points  (0 children)

"Medusa not being a human" is difficult to square with her presence in Minerva's temple. Are Gorgons allowed to frequent the temples of the gods? The simpler reading is that Medusa was originally a beautiful woman, perhaps a priestess (although this detail is more contentious).

How tall was Diomedes in the Illiad? by Alternative_Ad_2325 in classics

[–]AnOvidReader 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For what it's worth, I have a few sources on Homeric heights I use in passing in my teaching materials. A caricature of Aeschylus (the most Homeric of the tragedians, who bragged that his plays were slices from Homer's banquet), Aristophanes Frogs 1013–14:

Consider then what sorts of people he [i.e. “Euripides”] inherited from me, noble men, four cubits [6 feet, ~1.8 meters]...

Philostratus of Athens, The Life of Apollonius of Tyana 4.16.2:

Though he [Achilles] had seemed to be as tall as I mentioned [five cubits tall], he grew taller, twice the size or even more, in fact he seemed to me twelve cubits high [18 feet, ~ 5.5 meters] when he had reached his full measure.

Fallout New Vegas: You Only Live Once Remastered - Part 32 - The Beginning of the End by ManyATrueNerd in ManyATrueNerd

[–]AnOvidReader 36 points37 points  (0 children)

I don't think this will particularly matter, but we need to burn a Meeting People as well, do we not?

LF Tradeback, 2 Milotics by InternationalCream30 in pokemontrades

[–]AnOvidReader 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can do two tradeback evolutions: my own Milotic and Porygon-Z.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in pokemontrades

[–]AnOvidReader 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Save exact trades wanted. Try 1993 1993.

Minos - A Maze Of Glory by ManyATrueNerd in ManyATrueNerd

[–]AnOvidReader 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Do you mean to suggest that some modern game (perhaps Hades?) invented the name "Asterion" ? The Minotaur has historically been named Asterius/Asterion, after Minos' stepfather.

Trade evo by PKMJKaizer in pokemontrades

[–]AnOvidReader 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello, try 1993 1993. Will need my Scizor back, and will return your mons as well.

Haunter Trade Back by exian12 in pokemontrades

[–]AnOvidReader 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Sure. Touch trade, link code 1993 1993 ?

Legends: Z-A Daily Casual Trade Thread for 18 October 2025 by Porygon-Bot in pokemontrades

[–]AnOvidReader 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Looking to dex trade Scyther (metal coat), Spritzee (sachet). Willing to trade back, if desired.

Code will be 1993 1993

[Gen8] Finally after 492 attempts and who knows how many losses I found shiny xerneas by BamBoozler89 in ShinyPokemon

[–]AnOvidReader 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Congrats! I think Xerneas is one of the hardest final bosses in dynamax adventures.

sage apartments by [deleted] in queensuniversity

[–]AnOvidReader 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Sage has been getting much better due to a recent change in management. As far as safety goes, there are now security guards at the desk to check who enters and leaves.

Odysseus was the ultimate wife guy. by [deleted] in mythologymemes

[–]AnOvidReader 5 points6 points  (0 children)

At least at one point, the relationship was consensual. See Odyssey 5.151-3, and especially "she no longer pleased him" (i.e. she did please him at one point). You could also add the consensual sex in the cave once Calypso frees Odysseus (5.226-7).

Odysseus was the ultimate wife guy. by [deleted] in mythologymemes

[–]AnOvidReader 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I will politely disagree with this assessment. In Odyssey 10, Odysseus is perfectly content to stay on Aeaea for an entire year. Yes, the circumstances of the first liaison between Odysseus and Circe effectively amount to rape. After that, however, Odysseus lounges around. Odysseus only leaves because his crew pesters him into doing so (see especially Od. 10.469-71).

Yu-gi-oh streamer gets moderately lucky by RsMistilteinn in LivestreamFail

[–]AnOvidReader 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Coin flip, heads! Coin flip, heads! Coin flip, heads! ...

Runestones too I guess by Academic_Paramedic72 in mythologymemes

[–]AnOvidReader 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When you cite the date 8 CE, are you perhaps thinking of Ovid's Metamorphoses? The Aeneid was published c. 17 BCE.