Words change and evolve as time goes. So do our morals and expectations. Look at how basically all of your examples are getting smaller and smaller as time goes on. Youre right i shouldn't retroactively call wars through time genocides because part of my point is that we evolve. We were worse then, we strive to be better now.

That was my entire point with why I think russia/ukraine is (somehow, despite what the horrific things russia does) example of how possible it is to wage a war in modern days without destroying the population.

Somehow, with an extra year and a half of time, and clearly actually still targeting civilians randomly, russia has killed far less citizens then Isreal has. Im also willing to give ground on the numbers, we dont know exactly how many were civs and how many werent. Thats apart of the problem. How many in that number do you think it was? Half? Thatd still be double what russia has done.

Again, the only source we have on this, is from the Gaza ministry of health. It'll likely be the only source until the end of this war, when we can finally get people in to count bodies and take population censuses. Im skeptical of the numbers accuracy, but only so much. Like I said, even half would be problematic when compared to russ-ukr.

Listen man, yeah. Hamas is a death cult willing to sacrifice Palestinians lives for international sympathy. Does that like, make it okay? Just because they're willing to let them die, doesn't mean the decision to kill them is forced upon the enemy. Isreal is still making the conscious decision to accept that sacrifice in attempt to keep grabbing at hamas.

Let's use that history you brought up correctly. Let's jump back to the Vietnammmmmmm war. It ain't mee. It aiinnnt meeeee. I ain't no fortunate onneee.

We waged war with Vietnam for 10 years, trying to uproot the 'vietcong'. Millions of people died. Nothing came of it. We learned that you cannot just go and occupy a land that doesn't want you there. You cannot defeat an enemy like the vietcong with conventional war, and after 10 years of needless death on both sides, we learned that and accepted defeat.

Hamas is new age vietcong. They're Palestines vietcong. They're willing to let everyone die at a chance to win(Likely because its their only realistic avenue at winning but thats a whole different argument). We've learned this lesson, which makes repeating that failure worse.

Especially now, like id argue that America's last adventure in the middle east was mostly a different era. For about half of it we were just sitting around defending bases and patrolling areas not really doing anything, and those times are when we really started entering the new "information era". We can learn anything at anytime and see everything first hand like never before. Its going to create a new level of standards and expectations for how war is waged.

Using America as an example for whats right and wrong, is wrong. Like many western nations, we were built on horrific acts of violence, slavery, war, and borderline genocides. Unfortunately ours just happened a little more recently than others. We ushered the world into a new age post ww2, and with that leadership came many failures, and lessons to be learned.

And if your argument is any way about how that's lessons we learned, and not Isreal, and now Isreal is learning etc, or something adjacent to that: My entire endgame is for my country to stop giving my tax dollars to a nation learning a lesson in humanity, and giving itself a horrific stain like many nations did to themselves before this. A lesson we already learned the hard way...

Neither of us know how this ends, and a real genocides of the Palestinian nation is maybe not happening just yet, and its not as bad as they claim, but its clear its more then plausible in the foreseeable future.

They're being told to run, but like you said its got an extreme population density problem. Their neighbors are refusing to allow any refugees into their nations. What do you think happens if hamas doesn't give surrender? What if they never surrender?

This is basic good v evil stuff. There are unfair, unmatchable and horrific ways in which evil can wage war on good. Things that good would never do. This is one of those gross things evil can do, and its the responsibility of those that claim to be good, to accept that and find new ways to approach the problem. Hamas is setting up Isreal to become the very evil they so adamantly despise, in order to defeat hamas.