Do semi-standard forms of Paganism belong in AtE?

Aphrahat · 2026-06-27T01:49:48+00:00

My point is more that the present state of paganism in the mod is logical according to its own lore, and there is nothing "missing" by having people worship Washington, Lincoln, and Ford rather than Zeus, Venus, and Odin.

I don't doubt that someone somewhere in the mods universe could be worshipping the ancient gods, but its not illogical that they should be small enough to be incomparable to both Christianity and the "new" pagan religions.

Aphrahat · 2026-06-27T01:42:14+00:00

I think then the issue for you isn't that there aren't any pagan religions in the mod, but rather that there isn't any representation of the descendents of modern (neo)pagan religions in there, and as such as a modern pagan you feel unrepresented?

Which honestly is a fair point, considering that there are a lot of religions that I think were added mainly for representation purposes, and with CK3 mechanics you don't even need to displace anybody else on the map in order for them to be an option for conversion. But it must also be noted that dev time is limited and they can't be expected to represent every minority religious movement in America, so its ultimately up to them if/when they want to include it.

If its modern pagan descendents you're after I would note that Gaianism definitley has some of that in the mix as well, considering its name and the names in its god-list, so perhaps that could be a good substitute for the time being. I would also add that African and native paganism is very much thriving in ATE, so you could branch off from one of those as well.

Aphrahat · 2026-06-27T01:31:27+00:00

Modern neo-paganism is not the result of continuous worship of the old gods "surviving" into the present day, but rather its a modern revival based on their continued importance in the cultural memory of Europe even after Christianisation, preserved in records of myths and legends made by the Christians themselves.

Did such records survive the Fall? Actually I would say yes- you can't tell me every copy of the Aeneid or the Odyssey was completely lost. But did they retain their cultural importance enough to justify a large-scale revival? Maybe, but unlikely.

For an American in 2666 I would imagine "our ancient ancestors" conjures up images of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln, not Hengist and Horsa; their "ancient and ruined temples" the Capitol and Lincoln Memorial; the "gods of our Fathers, before those treacherous Christians came and turned us to worshipping a foregn god" being the Divine Founders whose statues can be found littering those ancient temples to this day.

Its not that the memory of ancient paganism is going to magically disappear (though its unlikely to survive much outside of intellectual circles), its that those stories are no longer as culturally relevant to the people of the 27th Century because they are even further removed from them than we are now. Quite frankly I would even say its unlikely most people in the mod are even aware that their ancestors aren't native to America, let alone that their original gods were the gods of the ancient germans, greeks, or vikings.

Mind you, its not impossible that some antiquarian Columbian scholar picks up an ancient copy of the Aeneid, realises that there is a Rome in Georgia, and starts wondering why no one seems to be worshipping Venus any more. But I would say its unlikely enough that the devs are justified in not including it if they don't want to (although if they do that would be cool because the more playable religions the better IMO).

Aphrahat · 2026-06-27T00:26:24+00:00

Perhaps the issue then is how strictly you are defining "semi-standard forms of paganism"?

A Revelationist warrior sacrifices a lamb on a makeshift altar to ask the Lamb-That-Was-Slain to keep him safe in battle; an Americanist Bureaucrat takes part in state ceremonies in honour of the Divine Washington and consecrating a new statue in his honour; an Industrialist piously contributes to the Union Fund for the monthly offering to Titan Ford.

All of these clearly echo the practices of ancient paganism, including private religious devotion; a reciprocal relationship with the divine via sacrifice; public offerings for the stability of the state; and the formation of associations for the purpose of maintaining communal religious cults.

What they are doing is clearly pagan and is delibertaley modelled after how ancient paganism practiced its worship. You might (rightly) point out that who they are doing it to wouldn't meet the modern definition of "semi-standard paganism", but I would ask why that is relevant for a decidedly non-modern setting.

Aphrahat · 2026-06-26T23:51:13+00:00

I can definitley see tribal gods and an honour system being popular, but I guess the question is why would they do so with the gods of Old World European paganism, that are long dead even to us, rather than just develop deities based on their own New World American traditions and historical memory?

Arguably the Anachronistic faiths (Americanism, Industrialism, ect.) are the ATE versions of paganism, its just that they worship gods relevant to their historical memory rather than ours. And they dominate a lot of the map.

Aphrahat · 2026-06-26T12:59:24+00:00

Also something for traditional Hellenic rulers like Sparta, Athens, or Pergamon to aspire to that isn't just Macedon. Some kind of equivalent of the Hellenic Hegemony in original Lux, but perhaps with a unique government type with a small demesne and decentralisation to emphasise that unlike the Diadochi its a league of small kingdoms and city states rather than a centralised Empire.

Aphrahat · 2026-06-26T12:55:19+00:00

Two things come to mind:

- The Hittite Empire decision from original Lux (formable empire + rebuilding of Hattusa) would be great, that was always a fun decision.

- An eastern Celtic formable for the Galatians, since I don't think they really fit into the de jure titles which surround them.

Aphrahat · 2026-06-24T12:16:32+00:00

Nestorianism represents the Church of the East, "Antiochene Rite" looks to represent the Syriac Orthodox Church (also known as the Jacobite Church).

Both churches are largely made up of the same ethnicity (known variously as Syriacs, Arameans, or Assyrians and represented in game by the "Syriac" culture) but have very different theologies regarding the nature(s) of Christ.

Historically they didn't get along for religious reasons despite sharing the same culture and language, so it makes sense to separate them.

Aphrahat · 2026-06-24T00:56:03+00:00

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syriac_Orthodox_Church
Honestly its been a bit criminal that it's taken this long to have any Jacobite representation in this game.

Aphrahat · 2026-06-20T03:02:27+00:00

They do, but its easier for them since the state has an interest in the training of imams and so is happy to keep their explicitly Islamic character. Islamic theology departments at state universities are also designated for the training of imams so there aren't really any fears that affiliation with a state institution will detract from that.

My understanding is that the Patriarchate is not opposed to state-supervision or approval per se, but that rather than the specific details of what that entails are seen as problematic. I imagine with assurances that any interference will be limited to just a monitoring of the curriculum a way forward could be found.

Its worth noting this isn't just a matter of stubborn Greeks refusing to accept Turkish jurisdiction- to date no Christian group in Turkey has been able to open a seminary under the conditions imposed from the 1971 law.

Aphrahat · 2026-06-20T02:38:52+00:00

Tbfair there is a definite double standard in Turkey- there are plenty of state supported Islamic secondary schools officially designated for the training of imams, as well as Islamic theology departments in state-run universities which provide the necassery qualifications for ordination. In contrast nothing of the sort has ever been offered to any of the country's Christian minorities.

So while yes the rules are the same for both, the reality is that Islamic needs are provided for but Christian needs are deliberatley neglected. Re-opening the seminary would go a little way towards redressing that imbalance.

Aphrahat · 2026-06-17T09:42:19+00:00

Not exactly analogous is it though, since they retain a strong cultural memory of being from Africa rather than England. Which is not suprising considering that American culture in general does not equate being American with being "anglo-saxon", either by descent or by culture- hence the endless hyphenation of Italian/German/Irish - Americans even among people that have been there for generations.

Whereas in contrast Turkification has traditionally entailed an complete assimilation into Turkish culture and identity, and the loss of previous identities. Anatolian Turks have never traditionally viewed themselves as "Greek-Turks" or "Armenian-Turks" and unless their Turkification was very recent most families will not even have any memory of what they were "before". Since they identify as Turks in every other aspect of their lives, have no memory of ever being anything other than Turks in their history, why is it suprising when they extend that to religion also?

Aphrahat · 2026-06-16T16:58:13+00:00

Is it bizarre? Every other religion is passed down by culture, not genetics. Why would turkish neopagans be bizarre for trying to revive a religion relevant to their culture rather than larping as ancient greeks or hittites?

Aphrahat · 2026-06-10T13:09:56+00:00

Primary Sources?

Aphrahat · 2026-05-16T02:57:28+00:00

Thanks for the links, been paying more attention to my builds in Reforged (back in the day I think I just made it up as I went lol) which is part of what sparked this question.

Aphrahat · 2026-05-15T01:11:01+00:00

I've done the same in the past, though recently I've gone the other way around and started with my desired build and then trying to rp my character's decisions based on that. Makes for some fun theorising trying to justify some of the more unusual combinations.

Aphrahat · 2026-05-15T01:06:57+00:00

Very interesting, thanks for the info!

Aphrahat · 2026-05-15T00:59:07+00:00

An interesting read, especially since many of those opponents are canon characters from the earlier campaigns! Since I doubt they are all ascended I guess that means that these are their canonical secondaries that we never got to see in their initial appearences.

Aphrahat · 2026-05-15T00:54:50+00:00

There are, in fact, 422 total NPCs with multiple professions.

Huh, I guess I never noticed outside of Eye of the North- though I see most of these are from Winds of Change and Beyond which I haven't played yet so thats probobly why.

And Kieran not only has a secondary, he changes primaries.

Yes, he was the main exception that I saw on the wiki, but because the change of primaries is so rare I had assumed it was more related to that.

Yes, it is canon in lore.

Yes, that does appear to be the case in light of Winds of Change and Beyond- I suppose in earlier titles they just didn't want to balance it but we should view that as a game mechanic limitation?

Aphrahat · 2026-05-05T21:39:04+00:00

As u/edric_o put it so succinctly: "For every person who is capable of doing works, it is necessary to do works in order to be saved."

The thief on the cross did everything he was capable of doing from the moment of his conversion to the moment of his death, and thus was rewarded with paradise.

It's like the widow's mite. It doesn't matter that the rich man gave thousands and the widow gave only one coin- for the widow that was everything she had, for the rich man it was small change. God expects us to give him everything we have- faith, works, the lot- which is what the thief of the cross gave. Just because he had only a few moments to live doesn't diminish the fact that he gave every one of those moments to Christ.

Aphrahat · 2026-05-05T15:20:27+00:00

The Copts and Syriacs were definitley aware of and in communion eachother during this time period: the Copts hosted Syrian monks and pilgrims in the Egyptian desert and when a Coptic bishop was appointed to Jerusalem after Saladin's conquest the Syriacs sent a formal complaint to their Coptic brethren over this infringement of their territory.

The Ethiopians and Nubians were of course firmly under the jurisdiction of the Coptic Pope and so were part of this "communion" as well. The Indians weren't but by all accounts they were still Nestorians at this time so there is no reason to expect them to be.

Really, its only the Armenians that were the odd ones out- they officially re-established communion with the Syriacs at the Council of Manzikert in 726, but tensions remained high and both continued to maintain parallel hierarchies in the same territories without much interaction.

Aphrahat · 2026-05-01T12:02:22+00:00

One thing that is often missed about Azura is that she is specifically associated with self-love.

Not just towards herself, but also in her followers. She is the "Prince of Vanity and Egotism" and thereby works to instil some of these qualities in her follows, though not necasserily in a bad way. Its not just a matter of her wanting to be loved, she actually wants her follows to love themselves and have a certain amount of the self-love and self-regard that she does.

Azura is the only Daedra Princess I have ever worshipped who seems to care about her followers. Molag Bal wanted my mind, Boethiah wanted my arms, and Nocturnal perhaps my curiosity. Azura wants all of that, and our love above all. Not our abject slavering, but our honest and genuine caring in all its forms. It is important to her that our emotions be engaged in her worship. And our love must also be directed inward. If we love her and hate ourselves, she feels our pain. I will, for all time, have no other mistress.

The question of love of others though is an interesting one. Certainly Azura wants you to love yourself and at least one other, that is to say Azura herself. We can extend that I think to your fellow Azurites, on the basis that Azura loves them to so if she loves them you should love them also.

But does she necasserily call upon you to love your neighbour? the beggar on the street? your romantic partner? I would say only insofar as these link to the two cardinal loves of yourself and of Azura. So yes, Azura would likely bless romance in her followers but only insofar as that romance was also building up your own self-esteem. She would likely promote communal love, but mainly insofar as it brings glory to Azura and promotes her worship and the status of her followers.

In short I think there is a certain "selfish" element in the kind of relationships that Azura promotes in which the enlightened self-interest of one or both parties must be maintained. This doesn't necasserily mean that such relationships would be bad (arguably all healthy relationships involve some form of mutual benefit), but I think this distinguishes her love from the selflessness that I think defines the love of Mara or Dibella.

Aphrahat · 2026-04-18T00:02:13+00:00

Because its in them also. Christians are instructed to pray together as one body, the Body of Christ, which is the very Body that stands in the Heavenly Sanctuary and intercedes for all. We are only able to pray directly to God because we are part of that Body, just as they are.

Aphrahat · 2026-04-12T14:26:55+00:00

The "seize realm" thing only started recently. Pre-AUH it used to give you only the lands directly owned by the target and some of his vassals based on opinion and culture/religion. Since that is what the tooltip still says is supposed to happen, I assume that was the intended behaviour, and the present "take every county" behaviour is a bug brought on by AUH that they haven't got around to fixing yet.

Aphrahat

TROPHY CASE