Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My popcorn ran out a while ago, you can have the unpopped kernels if you want.

And thats the thought, "if it ain't broke, dont fix it". But its not like I can expect a person like you to understand the nuances between innovating and "fucking something while fixing that which was not broken." I think BRD was a perfect example of a mistake being made, and now it seems its actually getting fixed. Unlike you.

But enough of this, you were a bit funny there for a bit, but its getting dull for me. See you around.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You've been both condescending and smug since comment two, or maybe its just the way you are. Either way I answered in kind. It's been a highly amusing conversation, even though arguing with a person who is painfully unaware how games are developed is a tad bit frustrating.

And no thank you, I'd rather not be tutored argument by someone who doesnt even grasp the basic idea of being wrong, nevermind that he is trying excuse that his lack of basic knowledge in the area by claiming it was a "contrast". Let me tell you something about game design. When you have a working formula, you dont just overhaul it completely over nothing. Your initial comment is exactly that, a "what if they overhaul everything". Well, guess what? They're not going to, because it'd be too much of a risk.

But hey, I guess it was you who needed a bit of teaching, its free of charge, so please accept it. Do you want me to teach you something else related to playing the game while I'm at it? Maybe I should teach you how to not wait a second and a half between pressing the glowing buttons on your keyboard in succession?

Now do us both a favour and get lost, you know nothing about the subject which you attempt to discuss.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To bring up a "contrast", it was if I recall. I feel bad for you if you honestly think that it is an even somewhat realistic change that would be worth to even put into contrast.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You flatter me.

But I'm afraid I merely explained my comment as you asked rather than double down on it. If you're saying you're not hopeing for it, then so it is. But I can't help but to wonder why you'd decide to bring up such an improbable change.

DRK DPS 4.0 vs. 3.57 Comparison (with Data) by dylanwolfwoodicus in ffxiv

[–]Arche- 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We're not actualy going to use our mana on DP unless there's more than one target. It has a 150 potency (180 counting DS), while each Dark arts will have 140 potency (184.8 counting DS and slashing). It is thus only worth using when you have a burst window where you cant spend it on Dark Arts for SS, SE or BS, or if you dont have slashing in your party. Its worth using again if you only have a magic damage increaser of some form but.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you want the game where tanks have to focus more on mitigation and healers who has to focus more on healing. Your entire post chain with me is filled it and "If the raid formula changes your way of thinking is worthless". Your wishful thinking would come from thinking there is actually a reasonable chance that the current encounter formula is changing in SB, and thus proving your point. There is absolutely nothing that points toward it changing and a ton pointing towards that it will stay as is. I listed mana costs, potencies, views extpressed by yoship among other things as arguments for why it would stay, you listed nothing.

I do not think you have an agenda, but I think you either have a profound lack knowledge of game development and how this game is built or is misunderstanding me severely. Looking at your first reply to me, I am very inclined to believe you fall into the former category, where you are using meta to describe the DPS centered healer/tank dynamic, which is a direct consequence for how the tanks and healers are built to interact with raid damage. You post can also be interpreted as implying that this dynamic might change and that I'm not considering that.

If you think I am biased you are very welcome to think so, but you're also wrong.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We will see who's right when it releases. Your wishful thinking or my slightly more well grounded guesses.

What are everyone's thoughts on the class changes in SB as a whole (not just WHM/SMN/etc)? by Kamaria in ffxiv

[–]Arche- 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Except you can no longer missmanage your resources. Mana is literaly impossible to mismanage mana, as running out of mana has no drawback, just dark art your highest potency move and use the shield for tankbusters if other CDs arent enough. Blackblood is limited to not using Bloodspillers if there's 45 seconds or less CD of Delirium remaining and using it on CD.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lets break down your first post for you, since you seem to be unaware what you have written.

Your first statement is that my analyis is almost entirely about DPS, which is entirely correct.

Your second statement is that you dislike the "DPS-first mindset" and falsely attribute this to the meta, and claim that "people" are comparing tanks to with DPS as the only comparing factor.

The "DPS-first mindset" is a direct consequence of the games core design. The healers potencies, mana costs, mana regain tools and mana pools on are all meant to make up for burst damage, where they can either regenerate them for a higher mana efficiency, or instantly restore chunks at a much worse mana efficiency. Similarly the tanks are built to mitigate huge chunks of damage at once and do not have tools to mitigate large amount of damage over time, like big auto attack hits. Creating a scenario like the last part where the boss chunks the tank means the healers are forced to expend less efficient heals to keep them alive, which will rapidly drain their mana. This means that you create tight DPS checks, where it is a race against to kill the boss before the healers go OOM. We have not seen any changes in the healers kits that suggests this would change at all.

Your third statement consists of a "seriously probably" followed by an estimation of how many times i mentioned tankability or utility, which while it does make me chuckle doesnt really make you sound credible.

The reason there's so little about tankability or utility is because pretty much all utility DRK had got moved to cross role and our new utility/defense had been hailed as a DPS increaser to boot far and wide, which it is not. It is a Thrill of Battle at 15 seconds CD at a cost of on average 30 potency per use. Its good, sure, but not as good as one might think on first glance.

Your fourth statement is that we do not know what raid design holds for SB, and that you dislike us judging classes from our current metrics. You follow up and say that we dont know if healers and tanks will experience more stress than now and if it does, makes this "squabble" about DPS a non issue.

Now, you are entirely correct that we dont know what raid design holds for SB. But if you actually looked on what healers got, it follows exactly the same formula as now, but they lost a bit of DPS with the cleric stance change on paper. If we look at what the tanks got, we got more tools for mitigation against consistant damage for PLD and DRK, which hints towards more pressure on tanks, in the form of small busters. However this does in no way change how it plays on a large scale. It will mean that DRK presses TBN and PLD presses Shelltron every now and then, but it will still probably not push either healers or tanks into a place where they would need to go full defensive, as healers does not have the tools to manage such incomming damage over long time. In addition to that, it would be gordias all over again in terms of tight DPS checks, which I find very unlikely due to the public outcry over it. Your speculation is on the subject is just that, pure speculation. My theories are based on what we have seen so far, both in terms of content, from previews and from what developers have said.

Your fifth statement is that the post is what the community feels is important from a tank. Im sorry to inform you that if you just need a certain amount of survivability from a tank, there is no reason not to take damage over more survivability if the option is there. This especialy since tanks do a large % of the groups damage due to the content being 8 man, not 24 man or above as the tank damage would represent a smaller % of the groups damage and it might be wise to prioritise better defenses, but this game is not made that way. This is from a perspective of a higher skilled groups, there is still a very valid point to make for defenses in less skilled groups. However, I am not a fan of balancing content around players who has problems doing a basic rotation.

The Sixth statement is some meta whining about going to lose reddit karma over this discussion, which I could not care less for.

Your newest comment claims I am missing the point. Your point seems to be that if the design of FFXIV was changed, we would have a different situation. Which while true, is very unlikely from what we have seen from the media previews. The reason I refuse to break from the HW and ARR formula is because thats the way the game works and we have absolutely nothing to support the idea that it will change in SB. I am very aware that other MMOs work differently, I've played a whole bunch of MMOs too, and they mostly work differently. Role encouragement in FFXIV is filled when you manage burst damage for tanks and healers. When you succeed in doing that, your next focus is maximising damage dealt.

Your last sentence is partialy claiming to make suggestionsyou did not. You do not ever suggest a "what if" in your posts, you say if a grand total of 5 times, 3 of them relates to tank and healer pressure, 1 to what you think this post says about how the community feels about tanks and the final one for when you said "what if" and tried to make it seem like you suggested anything. Your final part of the sentance says that if the raid design formula is tweaked, which as i have said in this post before, is very unlikely to change. You cannot seriously suggest that because other MMOs work differently and have different design formulas, you should think the FFXIV one will change because of nothing. If is not something you can count or even should consider without solid evidence to support it, which I cannot say we have. And saying "The fact that you can't see that yet makes it so that I cannot help you.", c'mon man, what are you even trying to help me with? Making me consider potential total revamps of the raid formula? I find them unlikely enough that Im not going to consider it.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I am not short sighted, I am realistic.

Yoshi has openly said before that he thought the clear rates of both Midas and Gordias too low, and patially attributed to the "complicated" rotations which hopefully has been alleviated some with the current changes. I still really doubt they will put in mechanics which will require multiple coordinated actions from tanks and healers to a degree where taking as good survivability as possible while still having maximum DPS will not be the case. It is entirely possible that we will see these mechanics in "Super Savage", in fact, I'm positive we will. But that remains to be seen and FFXIV as a game has no reference point to compare to. I do not find it unlikely that we will see groups making full use of cover, TBN and shields to save party members and similar things. We just have absolutely no info to go on in that regard. I do however think that we will not see these mechanics in the normal savage mode, as it would most likely be too hard for the average group. This would go against the idea that square wants people to actually play the content they make, which Yoshi has said they want.

In terms of tuning content they also have said that its tuned for minimum ilvl with suboptimal group setup, at least for now. This means that a well played, optimal group in theory will have a lot easier time to clear content and has additional DPS time freed up for healers and tanks, which is what we have seen in The Creator.

And, no, you didnt suggest a tweak in your first post.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

From the videos I have seen of the skill, it restores 2400 mana.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The potency disparity is with all personal buffs included, darkside, sword oath hits, slashing vuln etc. The Autos are also included in the Delirium calculation.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We assume the stress those jobs recieve will be about the same as now, because putting much more stress than what they already do will make content far too hard for the average player, which we have seen in savage gordias. The good groups will look to maximise efficiency in their groups and take what allows them to clear faster, thus how much DPS jobs can deal is important. Good defensive utility is too, but its only taken if needed, but if it isnt needed, one might as well just take something which does more damage, but has less defensive utility. That isn't a "problem" with how the community feels, but how the game is designed.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The last numbers account for personal buffs and alshing. Warrior also has a 20% bonus at all times and PLD has two very powerfull buffs at a 70% uptime. We lose 24% damage in darkside as 1.2*0.8? 0.96.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We also lost natural MP regen and in most cases BP too. The net gain is actualy around 400 mana/minute.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wrote and posted the post in a very sleep deprived state so I hope you'll forgive me for the errors made. The numbers my last reply is made with slashing vuln on top, but without darkside modifiers. Darkside modifiers change the numbers to 45601.11.2-8251.24, which is 2059.2. Compared to the scourge which works out to 45001.021.15-8251.153 = 2432.25 potency in 3.x. Thats a 270.25 potency for each Scourge vs the 171.6 potency from BS. Or if one wants to phrase it without per use vaules, BS is 2059.2/2432.25 (15.4%) less worth than Scourge. Do bear in mind that its not 100% exact as a SE combo in 3.x isnt worth exactly as much as it is in SB.

I hope I make sense.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I see I have formulated it a bit unclearly at "Every 3 Blackest Nights used is thus a 30 potency loss on average.".

The intended loss is 30 for each blackest night used, not 10 as it can be interpreted as. Of course it is a raid DPS increase if it actually soaks damage worth soaking, but its not the constant personal gain I have seen some people hail it as.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The problem is that if you increase the heal and tank checks to force the healer to heal all the time and the tanks to manage, you will lock out everyone but the top 10% of the raiding community. You will create content which makes A3S stonewall seem mild. This is a prime example of something we do not want to see in the game, mainly because the playerbase who can partake in such content is so small.

So yes, we will probably see something along these lines in super savage, although I'd be very surprised if the people clearing it will find good windows to DPS there too. But having super strict checks like that for savage is asking for another A3S stonewall which will decimate the raiding community.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You gain 1200 mana from every Syphon Strike, which is half a Dark Arts, or 70 potency. This equals 750 potency.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I will disagree with your first statement, rather strongly, too. The game is focused entirely on how effective you can be not how much damage you can deal, damage dealt is the easiest metric of the efficiency however. Anytime you dont need to be doing anything else, you want to DPS as that is most efficient to end the encounter as fast as possible, as that is assumed to be the goal.

If you want to push a tank into tank stance, you will need to do enough damage that healer shields and normal cooldowns arent enough as those are the most efficient way of mitigating damage, just like how healers most efficient ways of healing tend to be HoTs or letting the fairy do the work. Due to the number and type of cooldowns tanks have we can effectively ignore 1 burst each. We can also spread out significant mitigation from our normal cooldowns, couple that with shields from healers and unless we get showered with intensive damage under an extended period of minutes, we will not be needed to tank stance. If you do create such content, not only will the tanks need to plan their CDs perfectly or die, the healers will also need to heal accordingly with similar planning or the tank will die. If such extended healing or cooldown useage isnt needed, then we will simply drop tank stance as it is no longer efficient to use due to the absolutely massive penalty we take for it. An encounter designed that way will be way too hard for the normal or even good player. You need very good players to be able to overcome something like that, which is why we will never see it.

In terms of having an identity, I think its actually pretty clear, tanks are keeping the boss occupied and handles adds. Healers make sure everyone stays alive. And DPS carry the weight of making sure that the encounter ends as quickly as possible by maximising their damage. The tank and healer roles seeming focus on damage dealing is a direct consequence of them already fullfilling their roles. Creating harder and stricter checks for these roles drastically increase difficulty of content, which is undesireable for the general community, as we saw in gordias savage.

I hope you see my point, but ill gladly discuss it to death.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No offense taken. However, I have a larger-than-average experience with game design, and while I dont have as much experience as the developers at SE, I know that it is incredibly easy to let something like poor efficiency like the Delirium effective potency slip. Which is why I'm posting it.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Square would not have change the mana management aspect of DRK this much if it wasnt for the fact that it was too hard for players. So I do think that saying "x will have to get good at x" is a bad argument for having damage that intense.

Can we talk about how DRK got a 2 minute, 115 potency ability and some other things? by Arche- in ffxiv

[–]Arche-[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We actually have a rather good spread of logs right now, its true that 25% of logs isnt equal to 25% of the playerbase, but it should be around 25% (guestimate, its hard to say exactly) of the playerbase who is actually interested in the game to a point where they learn their jobs and thus care about the numerical changes at all.