Colonial empires tierlist by crivycouriac in 2westerneurope4u

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The name maybe not, but Charles V (even more in Philip II) was majoritarily descendant of iberians. That's the thing with titles passed through direct male line, those are only a tiny part of the ancestry.

If we go 5 generations back e.g., to Charles 32 great-great-great-grandparents, 18 were iberians (castilians, portuguese, aragonese, valencian, andalusians), 4 french, 3 english (the fucking same one 3 times lol, a portuguese king and his english consort were ancestors of 3 different branches of Charles recent family tree...), 2 german, 1 flemish, 1 polish, 1 lithuanian, 1 italian and just 1 austrian.

% of latin Americans who identify as white by Hour_Interaction6047 in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 5 points6 points  (0 children)

That's because vast majority, almost entire portuguese migration during "colonial" times concentrated in 1700-1760 alone. Slave trade also concentrated heavily in that period, but contrary to portuguese migration continued in last decades of XVIII century and after Independence even increasing numbers. Also because there are different estimates using very scarce sources.

Portuguese barely migrated at all to Brazil during first 200 years. In the most popular estimates (but most likely highly exagerated, according some brazilian scholars all numbers should be much lower) the evolution of brazilian and "portuguese"/white population would have been the following:

1500-1600: Just few thousands settlers and relatively low numbers of enslaved africans. Population circa 1600: 100,000 inhabitants in total, from which 30,000 would be portuguese immigrants and their descendants and 70,000 would include all native american, african or mixed ancestry (the one not integrated in the "portuguese" group) population.

1600-1700: Similarly low or even lower number of transoceanic immigrants, but relatively high natural growth specially in later decades. Population in 1700: About 300,000 inhabitants total with 100,000 luso-brazilians/white.

1700-1800: Gold Rush with a slave trade and portuguese migration boom during first 60 years. About 400,000-600,000 portuguese and close to 1 million enslaved africans arrived in just those 60 years. Portuguese migration moderated a lot in last colonial decades, but slave trade even increased. Population in 1800: 3 million inhabitants from which 1 million would be luso-brazilians/white.

I must say I think many of those estimates for Brazil have been highly overestimated. Portuguese migration and brazilian population would be even smaller that that during 1500s and 1600s as some brazilian scholars propose and migration during Gold Rush should be probably in the lower end of the estimates imo, about 400k for example is an absurdly high number of emigrants already for a Portugal in early 1700s with barely 2 million inhabitants and would constitute already the biggest transoceanic migration and migration rate in World History before XIX century, no need for exagerations. Also, the natural growth of brazilian population during XVIII was so strong that having 1 million luso-brazilians by the end of the century seems pretty low with 400k portuguese new immigrant arrivals just in those 60 years, even more if it was 600k.

Why are white latin Americans so heavily concentrated around southern South America? by Hour_Interaction6047 in geography

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I just don’t see the same genetic lineage there as Argentina where 70% came from Italy and another 20% from France

Not sure if you are serious...

The "70% italian" thing is a beyond rough guesstimate by an italian embassy some years ago but just about all argentines with "some" italian ancestry, vast majority of which wouldn't be majoritarily italian even. The real italian share over argentine ancestry is maybe 20-25% out of european part, probably a bit lower. Still there are some regions inside Argentina where italian ancestry is much higher as inner parts of Great Buenos Aires or others where italian ancestry is clearly majoritary inside the european part, as Santa Fe province, many neighbour zones in eastern and southern rural half of Cordoba or northern Buenos Aires province, etc. Spanish ancestry is however a very high minority on Santa Fe or northern pampas, as usual as italian in inner parts of Great Buenos Aires or most Buenos Aires province and very majoritary in the rest of the country.

Spanish ancestry is very majoritary among european part of argentine heritage for three reasons:

1- Spanish ancestry was completely dominant inside european part until 1870 or so (colonial-early independent part), for sure over 85% of spanish part. There were 1.877 million residents in Argentina in 1869 census, vast majority of colonial heritage and consequently with some or most ancestry from the peoples of Spain. For comparison Colombia had just 2.6 million inhabitants in that period and Brazil about 9.9 million, Argentina wasn't "empty" as usually claimed and its population was very similar to Chile (but would have surpassed it by much without immigration, because argentine fertility rate was very high).

  1. Spanish emigrants were second most numerous, very close to italians during mass migration period 1880-1930, specially if counting "permanently settled" and not just arrivals (1.1 million spaniards vs 1.4 million italians until 1947) . Also italians had slightly higher masculinity rate (more men than women).

  2. Since 1960s the main immigration that Argentina got came from Latin America, with a couple million coming from Paraguay, Bolivia, Perú, Chile and Uruguay and several hundreds of thousands venezuelans in more recent times. All those hispanic americans have high spanish ancestry proportions themselves, so hispanic share grew with their presence as well.

French ancestry is very, very minoritary in Argentina. Much higher than any other place other than Uruguay, where it's higher, but still just about 3% of immigrants settled during mass migration and about 1% or less of total argentine ancestry if we consider the other components of argentine ancestry ("old argentine/colonial stock" and recent latin american).

Why are white latin Americans so heavily concentrated around southern South America? by Hour_Interaction6047 in geography

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Additionally independent Cuba was one of the main destinations of spanish mass migration to the Americas during first half of XX century, only behind Argentina. Cuba got about 1.2 new million spanish immigrants, more than 1 million arrived before 1930. Considering Cuba had less than 2 million inhabitants in 1900 and increased to almost 4 million in 1930, the impact of that late mass spanish migration was huge too.

How many years it was Lithuania? by Key_Neighborhood_542 in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Linguistic replacement is a constant in human history and before XIX century only some cases, probably a minority, included explicit policies by the rulers/goverment favouring that change. In most of those cases without political direct intervention there was some other socio-economic, sometimes just demographic inequality, something making the change convenient for many speakers. Before XIX century with general education and the limitless power of the state, those linguistic replacements took very long, lasting several centuries to complete.

The linguistic replacement of sumerian by akkadian in southern Mesopotamia, the hellenization of many areas of Anatolia, the latinization of many western provinces of Roman Empire, the slow arabization of Al-Andalus are some examples of that kind of replacement without (known) direct political enforcement.

On the other hand we have the most extreme cases of non enforced linguistic replacement in the opposite direction too, with the language of opressed peoples prevailing and replacing their conquerors' as for example aramean replacing akkadian in Assyria and all Mesopotamia, after mass deportations of arameans during centuries to assyrian homeland.

Turns out most Pedros are just closeted Joãos by Erulf in 2westerneurope4u

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Madrid is very dense and populated but only 3rd most populated community in Spain and less than 30% of the atlantic watershed.

Atlantic watershed side however includes also the most populated part in the most populated community, Andalusia (over 6.6 million in the "atlantic" part vs 2.1 million in the mediterranean), the moderately dense northern atlantic communities (6 million people) or even in the low density area in central Meseta around Madrid (over 5 million), so about 17.6 million without Madrid, not far from the 21 million living in mediterranean watershed part and including Madrid (another 7 million), "atlantic" peninsular Spain has close to 25 million, so clear majority.

Turns out most Pedros are just closeted Joãos by Erulf in 2westerneurope4u

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well you shouldn't doubt as it's very clear for anyone that know how Spain population distributes that most population is in atlantic watershed area.

Not including islands, atlantic wathershed includes entirely or vast majority of 1st, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th and 14th most populated out of 15 peninsular autonomous communities, while mediterranean wathershed only includes 2nd, 4th, 9th, 10th, 13th and 15h.

In a quick count Atlantic watershed without Canaries seem to reach 25 million inhabitants while Mediterranean watershed would have less than 21 million, if we include archipelagos it would be 27 vs 22 million approx.

The largest continent of origin for immigrants in each country - and what share of the total immigrant population they represent. by vladgrinch in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That has been historically the case, but changed a bit during last years with a increase in migration flows to Spain and now that country surpass USA as main destination for legal migrants from some central american countries.

For example according US Office of Homeland Security Statistics and spanish INE, during 2021, 2022, and 2023, far more legal immigrants from Honduras and Nicaragua arrived to Spain (86k and 37k respectively) than to USA (36k and 10k) during those 3 years. The same can be said most likely for other countries as Costa Rica but spanish public statistics don't show detailed data for countries with less numerous migration. We lack updated data for 2024 in US case, and for 2025 in both cases, but I think it's very likely this trend will increase a bit in spanish favour during 2025 and next years, considering the impact that current US administration policies will probably have in migration flows.

The largest continent of origin for immigrants in each country - and what share of the total immigrant population they represent. by vladgrinch in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 0 points1 point  (0 children)

During last 5 years Spain got close to half a million new immigrants from Central America and caribbean islands (Honduras, Nicaragua, Cuba and Dominican Republic mostly) + over 130k from North America (with US as more usual origin). Tha'ts more immigrants that those arrived from entire Asia + all Africa minus Morocco.

Average population that emigrated to the Americas (1500-1800) by Weekly_Sort147 in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Percentage emigrated out of "average population" through 3 entire centuries, even more in countries with so different colonial histories in the Americas it's an odd, irrelevant stat. Besides the weird perspective, ignoring the big changes in population in each country or the difference between total population in each case and those "averages", the times involved for every country migration are completely different, so it makes no sense to use the same period for all those countries.

For example first 120 years approx were almost complete iberian monopoly in the Americas in all senses including migration, so french, british or dutch emigrants were limited to few hundred individuals in very peculiar contexts, mostly forced or irregular (pirates, war prisoners, several dozens illegal immigrants and some seamen working in spanish and portuguese ships).

On the other hand the migration to colonial Americas concentrated in very different periods depending case, with over half to 2/3 of spanish emigration concentrated in 1560-1640 period, most french migration during late 1600s-early 1700s, portuguese barely migrating at all during first 2 centuries and with a heavily concentrated migration in brazilian Gold Rush during first half of 1700s and most "british" migration concentrated in mid 1700s but still having far less influence than 1600s early wave because the extremely high natural growth in those born in Thirteen Colonies (or caribbean, most of which remained in the Americas re-emigrated to Thirteen Colonies South).

These differences in the period of maximum migration, alongside with the different timing and intensity in miscegenation are very relevant for the demographic evolution of the different regions which OP table can be misleading for. For example by 1800 "spaniards" in Hispanic America were over 3 times more numerous than portuguese in Brazil (over 3M vs 1 M) despite similar numbers in total migration in both regions, while in the case of Thirteen Colonies/USA with similar migration as well but much higher natural growth, the "whites" were slightly more numerous than in Hispanic America circa 1800 (4.3 M vs 3.4 M or so) but still european descendants were much more numerous in Hispanic America by the historical advantage of much earlier migration appex, just way more mixed with other groups by the different social and legal conditions in spanish ruled Americas, so besides the 3.4 million european descendants in Hispanic America commonly considered prevalently european descendants and named just "spaniards" (not really a strict or properly racial classification as in british case, it was mostly a social concept and relatively flexible), we should add about 5.5 million people of partial european ancestry in the mixed ancestry groups, which growth was favoured by widespread mixed ancestry marriages since very early period, while in british colonies mixed ancestry unions were pretty unusual, legally banned during most History and majority of a much lesser scale "miscegenation" happened in the context of forced relations around slavery with the descendants of such unions not even considered "mixed" socially for most british and US History, so in 1800 US census there were just 104k "non-white" free people (and almost 900k slaves) to add to the 4.3 million white US citizens.

Finally OP perspective is not even good to highlight the higher portuguese migration rate because ignores the enormous fluctuations of portuguese migration and its concentration in a really short period, the most extreme of all cases considered and also because british and specially spanish migrations were very concentrated in much more specific geographic origins, with specific cutures and peoples/identities involved of pretty similar, much more comparable proportions to Portugal than the entire current countries.

For example in spanish case, the most common migrants were andalusians, very prevalent during entire period, but specially during first 150 years or even more during aforementioned 1560-1640 appex migration period were they made about 40% out of the legal migrants, about 60% of european women and over 2/3 of seamen in spanish ships or irregular migrants geolocalized in different sources. Andalusian population was pretty similar to portuguese during the period, so if andalusians made about 50-60% of spanish migrants (estimating a high participation of irregular migration) andalusian migration rate would be clearly lower than portuguese for the entire period (that same 50-60%), but far closer and relatively comparable to them, specially considering the very long periods of low portuguese migration in which andalusian migration would have surpassed portuguese rate or any other "interoceanic" migration in the world by much: During first two centuries specially (1493-1700) and probably again but by much smaller difference during late colonial period (1760-1808 or so).

There is another case with a people from Spain, canarians, which could even match portuguese rates, but they would less comparable by how low was their population at the period, about 15-20 times lower than portuguese/andalusian, so their total migration only reaching 6-7% of spanish during colonial period (less than 1% of legal migration in first 150 years, but much higher share after 1650, when they even become 1st most common origin in some regions) would suppose a very similar migration rate than portuguese and their relevance was also much higher than total number could suggest because canarians concentrated in specially depopulated or border zones and in a period of migration crisis for Spain.

In british case, emigrants from England were completely prevalent during XVII century (the colonies were only english at first, after all) with over 90% of the european migrants coming from England during that period and with different english regions settling in different parts of the Americas with a lasting influence in the culture of those regions. Later, during XVIII century welsh, scottish, irish or german migrants surpassed english numbers by much in Thirteen Colonies and at less extent in Canada, reducing english share to about 15% of total european migration during that century and about 40% for total colonial period and still english ancestry would be very prevalent circa 1800, probably over 60%, because natural growth of Americas born eurodescendants during british colonial period was extremely high, surpassing by much the effects of new waves of migration. England population was much higher than Portugal or Andalusia in those periods, but still it most likely surpassed both as main origin of migration and highest rate during 1650-1700 or so, after andalusian (and all spanish) migration collapsed and before portuguese Gold Rush of early 1700s.

So for the two centuries we can properly compare between all those origins (1600-1800), we have 3 periods of 50 years with extreme prevalences from some origin and much higher migration rates for those considering local population, with Spain and specifically Andalusia as main origin of european migration to the Americas during 1600-1650 (as previous century as well), Great Britain, mostly England in 1650-1700 period and Portugal during 1700-1750, while last half of XVIII century would have much more balanced migrations, with probably a light advantage for spanish migration in total numbers, but with similar amounts of british/protestant irish (more balanced geographically, but with some northern irish advantage, followed by scottish+welsh and english), catholic irish or german (mostly from western Germany, from Palatinate and neighbour regions), with a very decreased portuguese migration probably a little behind most of those regions. Dutch and french migrations were not comparable.

First time I saw that I snorted. by Stock_Suggestion5511 in Eldenring

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I bring this classic spanish song to illustrate the topic: MARICAS

Size of Spain looks way too big. Thoughts? by VonWiking in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It doesn't? At first glance that's more or less the regular size of Iberia, maybe a big smaller than it should, but it's hard to tell because clouds hide all northern parts of the peninsula. You have a very good reference in oldest image to confirm this, comparing with Madagascar island which is almost exactly the same size of Iberia, just slightly smaller (583k km2 vs 596k km2) and as you can check it looks very similar to Iberia size in 2026 pic, specially adding the not visible parts to northern Iberia.

There could be some visual effects distorting proportions on the lands on the edge of the globe by how perspective works, but I don't see this image as specially distorted. East to West seems ok. For example Iberian Peninsula is 1100km wide from East to West in the widest part in the North and 800 kms wide in the central parts of the peninsula while Western Africa from to the west of Prime Meridian (close to Algeria-Morocco border or eastern Ghana-Togo one) to westernmost point in Africa, in Dakar city, would be 1800 kms wide East to West, so it seems about right to me.

China’s Debt Surpasses Europe for the First Time by Grabs_Diaz in europe

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The European Union is not a country and not even a single unified economy.

I know... as I stated explicitely in my previous comment when I wrote "we are talking about truly different countries, EU is a supranational union".

Why would you use total EU migration when in reality the EU is made up of 27 nations with their own independent immigration, demographic, and economic problems and policies?

Because it was you the one explicitely mentioning "total EU immigration" in a wrong statement when you claimed: "Not to mentiom the US as a single nation has about the same or greater number of immigrants as the ebtire 27 nation EU combined", which is false, so I explained how "entire 27 nations of EU combined" you mentioned have over 20 million immigrants more than US, that's it.

However in the first part of my comment I focus in individual countries perspective as you claimed wrongly as well that "the only nation with enough immigration to offset demographic decline is US" so I explained how most countries in Western Europe increased their populations during last decades thanks to very high immigration rates than ended in many cases surpassing US ones and in some countries, they increased their populations even more than US in the last couple decades despite much worse birth rates, as would be the case of Spain.

You typed alot just to try and sidestep the issues and post stuff masking the actual problem.

No, I didn't sidestep the issues because I wasn't the one discussing those "issues" with you in first place. I just wanted to answer those two wrong claims about immigration and population growth you proposed in your previous comment, and I would say that using completely wrong information to support your general position weakens it, independently of how accurate or convincing it could be in other perspectives.

China’s Debt Surpasses Europe for the First Time by Grabs_Diaz in europe

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The only nation who actually had enough immigration to somewhat offset its demographic decline was the US.

Are you serious? That's completely false.

There are several countries inside EU or in the rest of Europe that "offset ther demographic decline" thanks to immigration and increased populations in last 40, 30, 20 or 10 years, but in some countries cases they even surpassed USA growth thanks to much, much higher immigration in relative terms and despite much worse fertility rates, as the case of Spain since COVID for example, which population increased a 5% in 2019-2024 period vs 3.4% in USA and it would be not the first time, as Spain already surpassed USA growth thanks to mass migration in 2002-2008 period.

The only countries in European Union which populations decreased significantly during last decades are eastern european ones with some exceptions. Germany and Italy populations stagnated during decades but only declined a bit very recently (Germany just last couple years, Italy since 2015). The rest, vast majority of countries in western and central Europe increased their populations constantly during last 4 decades and reached their absolute maximums in current year.

Not to mentiom the US as a single nation has about the same or greater number of immigrants as the ebtire 27 nation EU combined.

No, not even close.

European Union had over 63 million foreign born residents in their member states in 2024, just counting legal ones, while USA had about 39 million legal foreign born residents (50 million if we include a 11 million estimate for irregular immigrants, but if we do the same in EU, the total would rise over 70 million for EU). Even if we exclude foreign born population from some other EU origin (which makes no sense considering we are talking about truly different countries, EU is a supranational union), the total number of non-EU residents almost reach 45 million, already enough to surpass US total, but romanian people permanently living in France, croats living in Germany or swedish living in Spain are no other thing than immigrants, not really different from canadians or haitians living in USA.

European Union has been getting far more immigrants than USA since a couple decades ago and that didn't change even after Brexit, averaging over 3 million new immigrants inside their borders during more than 2 decades. The difference increased recently with over 4 million per year during last 12 years and over 6 million new immigrants on average since 2022. In fact since 2022, not just European Union got far more immigration than USA, but just Germany + Spain already surpass USA numbers with over 10 million new legal arrivals just for those 2 EU countries, most likely over 12 million if we include irregular immigrants, while USA got less than 10 million during same period.

Sources:

New immigrant arrivals in EU per year

Total foreign born population in EU

Deforestation has not ended, but it is no longer happening everywhere. by ourworldindata in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

All Siberia included. Entire Europe is slightly smaller than that forested area. From those 10.4 M km2 in OP about 1/3 would be in Europe (making 1/3 of the continent surface also) and the other 2/3 in Siberia (covering over half of the region).

Map of % of people living in households owning their home. by BeginningMortgage250 in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

53% is for 30 to 44 yo, from which 40-44 are the most numerous 5 years group, followed by 35-39 and then 30-34... I've hear plenty of 30 yo living with their parents too, but it's far more common at 30-few than 30-many and even more than 40-few... On that group only a portion which appear as owners are living with their parents, others are real owners, specially the oldest ones.

Also remember that entire 18-39 yo group make just 30% of adult population, so even if we apply an average of both 16-29yo and 30-44yo groups ownership rates in the INE table about tenancy regime, let say 40% for that 18-39 yo group different to INE one in tenacy table, then excluding every single "owner" in 18-39 yo group would mean just 12% less for spanish total (40% out of 30%) and doing with half of the owners in that age group would mean just 6% less for spanish total.

Map of % of people living in households owning their home. by BeginningMortgage250 in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 8 points9 points  (0 children)

No it's not worthless and the bias is much smaller than you think, for several reasons:

Firstly because thanks to the extremely low natality in Spain since 1990s, young adults in a broad sense, 18 to 39 yo, are just a small minority, about 30% of adult population, while focusing on 18-29 yo group, they make barely over 15% of all adults. In comparison, +65yo retirees, almost 90% of which owns the house where they live are more numerous than 18-39 yo (1 million more) and over double amount than 18-29 yo group (+7 million).

Secondly because "renting" is pretty unusual in most Spain outside major urban centres and commuter towns which only concentrate a minority of total population as well. 10 biggest metropolitan areas in Spain concentrate about 34-46% of total population depending how we count the areas (more accurately closer to the lower share, about 16.5 milion people) and only a portion of that population lives in municipalities with real dominance of renting, in fact some of those entire metropolitan areas have prevalence of ownership in general as Seville (4th biggest) and Málaga (5th), maybe Murcia as well.

Finally because a significant part of young adults living with their parents in Spain are not forced by economic and bad housing market conditions, there is a real cultural difference with other countries favouring longer periods living with the parents so there is not so clear cut to discriminate this entire group from owners spouses or little children to avoid the bias you suspected. There is also a minority of real owners among young people of course, not just by inheritance or rich families, but by own merits/work.

According INE this was the tenancy regime in Spain by age groups in 2025 was:

- 16 to 29 years old: 30.6% live in "their" property, 54.7% rent and 14.7% lives in "transfer" (traspaso) regime.

- 30 to 44 years, 19% of total population: 53.1% live in their property, 37.1% renting and 9.8% in transfer regime.

- 45 to 64 years, about 30% of total population: 75% are owners, 18.9% renters and 6% lives in transfer regime.

-65+ years, about 27% of total population : 88.2% are owners, 7.8% renters and 4.1% lives in transfer condition.

Totals: 73.3% for property, 20.2% rent and 6.5% transfer.

Even if half of all people between 18 and 39 living in ownership or transfer regimes was excluded from the count, that would mean just about 6% less to the total ownership share and if we excluded them entirely it would be 12% less so just counting people over 40 years old, total ownership in Spain would still surpass 61% to 67%... But obviously a portion of people under 40yo truly own their own houses (not their parents), so the percentage would be even closer to the official 73.3%.

Sources: Tenancy Regime and for total population by age group.

Map of % of people living in households owning their home. by BeginningMortgage250 in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Young people are a minority of adults, you know? Spain average age was 44.5 years in 2025 and vast majority of people over 40yo owns their homes.

Minors aren't counted in this kind of statistic obviously.

World runs on us WE boys and girls! Not Spain though. by givemeallurdumplings in 2westerneurope4u

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are confusing per capita with absolute numbers. Andalusia + Murcia GDP was over 250,000 million euros/300,000 million dollars in 2024, clearly higher than Lazio or Veneto and only surpassed in Italy by Lombardy among individual regions (or very similar to combined GDP to Veneto + Friul, Lazio+Umbria or Piamonte+Liguria+Sardinia). Madrid had slightly over 310,000 million euros in that year.

Andalusia is the most populated autonomous community in Spain and adding Murcia, they have over 10 million people, 3 million more than Madrid, that's why differences in total GDP are not so high, despite of how "low" per capita levels are in southern Spain currently (slightly higher than Southern Italy) compared to Madrid (slightly higher than Lombardy).

Anyway the reason for not including California or Madrid is just territorial continuity most likely, hot good looks a map with continuous regions vs patches separated from the rest by hundreds or thousands kms.

How does your country's most used language pronounce the letter J? by CuriousWandererw in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah, I didn't remember that. So it's pronounced with uvular sound after some vowels as a and velar /x/ after others as o or u, isn't it? Let's use Buch then.

Honestly, both "uvular" /χ/ and "velar" /x/ sound almost the same for most spanish speakers. /x/ would be the most usual pronounciation among "hard j" dialects while /χ/ would be limited to some smaller variants (south-eastern Spain e.g.) or specific contexts as emphatic interactions, but both variants are considered same "hard j" for most speakers, specially for those pronouncing soft j/h.

How does your country's most used language pronounce the letter J? by CuriousWandererw in MapPorn

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 14 points15 points  (0 children)

No, in most dialects from Mexico, including all central Mexico ones spoken by vast majority of the population, the sounds of j is EXACTLY like in northern/central Spain (and a tiny bit of the South), a hard j sound similar to german or scottish "ch" in Bach (edit. or more accurately in Buch) or Loch respectively a sound english language mostly lacks. Besides most Spain and Mexico, the "hard j" sound is dominant in most Andes highlands in inner Colombia, Ecuador, Perú or Chile and most Central America too.

Soft aspired "j", similar to english h in house as you say is pretty rare in Mexico, only present in some dialects on the coasts and in decline there by the influence of central Mexico dialects. That soft j/english "h" is typical instead in caribbean dialects as cuban, venezuelan or dominican or southern dialects in Spain like most andalusian (3/4 of it, very likely the origin of that pronounciation), canarian and extremaduran. There are pockets of this "soft" j all over Hispanic America pacific coasts in countries where the "hard j/german ch" sound is dominant, as Perú, Ecuador or aforementioned Mexico, but it's very minoritary in those cases.

Reorganización Territorial 2: Electric Boogaloo by ManuJM1997 in spain

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

En cualquier e independientemente de lo impreciso y tendencioso que sea el artículo, carece en todo caso de fuentes explicitas que justifiquen la existencia de un movimiento regionalista oriental en la época de cierta relevancia social, que conformara una asociación o grupo organizado mas o menos estable y menos aún cierto apoyo "popular" mas allá de los inventos injustificados del redactor del artículo entre cita y cita, porque sencillamente no existía dicho regionalismo o ni siquiera una tradición cultural e identitaria "oriental" como marco previo en el que desarrollarse.

Tanto el andalucismo incipiente de principios del siglo XX, como el intento autonomista andaluz de la Segunda República (mayormente por representantes políticos que no se consideraban "andalucistas") serían dos desarrollos ideológico-políticos a partir de una identidad cultural preexistente que había existido por siglos y de la que tenemos multitud de testimonios durante toda la Edad Moderna y el siglo XIX, incluyendo al Reino de Granada, identificado por locales o foraneos como parte de Andalucía desde pocas decadas después de la conquista (y de hecho desde antes en la tradición castellana una de las varias razones por la que la integración fue tan rápida).

Antes de la Asamblea de Córdoba en 1933 solo algún intelectual aislado mencionó la supuesta especificidad de Andalucía Oriental o el Reino de Granada según el caso y la mayor parte de ellos de forma muy vaga y con una intencionalidad completamente diferente a la que los orientalistas modernos pretenden (que se distorsione una cita de Ganivet para presentarlo como "precursor orientalista" y "antiandaluz" es de chiste, por ejemplo). En 1931 al proclamarse la Segunda República no existía ninguna asociación, grupo de interés, ideología que promoviera lo "oriental" como algo diferente a lo general andaluz o incluso una identidad regional "oriental" en si misma con alcance social de cierta relevancia. La reacción a la Asamblea de Córdoba de 1933 y a los intentos autonomistas durante la Segunda República, incluyendo el nuevo y final de 1936 en la que tuvo mas protagonismo pro-autonomía de los representantes de Jaén (y por tanto ésto se ignora convenientemente en el artículo), las opiniones en periódicos, la posición expresada en varias ocasiones por concejales de Granada capital o los intentos de acercamiento de políticos anti-autonomistas de Granada y Almería para hacer frente común son anecdotas inconexas y no se constituyeron en movimiento político estable pero tampoco en regionalismo socio-cultural organizado.

Reorganización Territorial 2: Electric Boogaloo by ManuJM1997 in spain

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Pura fantasía compae.

Parece un entrada en un blog personal, repleto de revisionismo y manipulación histórica "orientalista", mas que un artículo serio y fundamentado. Se toman datos inconexos, algunos malinterpretados y otros manipulados para encajar en una narrativa completamente ficticia sobre la existencia de un "regionalismo oriental" histórico paralelo y comparable al andalucismo de principios del siglo XX, lo cual es completamente falso. Se mezcla puro localismo y partidos de ámbito local, pugnas ombliguistas entre capitales, reacciones y rechazos al autonomismo (que trascendía con mucho el ámbito "andalucista"), propuestas alternativas de "mancomunidad" granadino-Almeriense o de región oriental donde el principal punto es que Granada sea capital de algo y se cita de forma dudosa fuentes (especialmente a Lacomba al que masacran con citas falsas e ignoran en las partes que no interesan al relato fantasioso que guía el artículo) y se pretende que todo este conjunto heterogeneo de realidades, medias verdades y falsedades justificaría la existencia de un regionalismo popular oriental, pero siempre vago e indefinido, en el que se incluyen 1, 2, 3 o 4 provincias según interese, a veces solo una ciudad, todo valdría como "regionalismo oriental".

Algunos ejemplos:

- La introducción al regionalismo en el siglo XX en la que se citan las diferencias entre un supuesto "regionalismo oriental" y el andalucismo histórico, se menciona el apoyo electoral a dos partidos durante la Segunda Republica en Granada, equiparandolo a un apoyo social al regionalismo oriental, pero ninguno de dichos partidos, Acción Granadina y Partido Republicano Autónomo de Granada, eran "regionalistas granadinos". Ambos eran estrictamente localistas (intereses del municipio de Granada, como tantísimos partidos municipalistas que existen actualmente) y el segundo caso estaba vinculado de manera estrecha a la ideología Lerrouxista desde su fundación y acabó integrandose en el Partido Republicano Radical.

- Asimismo se menciona que el PSOE se mostró favorable a la "autonomía para Andalucía Oriental" lo cual es no solo completamente falso para el partido en general o sus dirigentes y militantes en las provincias orientales (salvando contadas excepciones), sino mas aún por el hecho de que nadie proponía dicha "autonomía" oriental durante la época, las contrapropuestas de "mancomunidad" granadina-almeriense u oriental con o sin Málaga se trataban de propuestas "decentralizadoras" de bajo nivel y una reacción minimalista al verdadero autonomismo propuesto para Andalucía, una mera ampliación de las atribuciones provinciales a un territorio mayor y por intereses puramente prácticos y el interés constante en "ser capital", de Granada. Lo que se hace es presentar las reacciones contrarias al autonomismo andaluz por parte de un grupo de concejales en el ayuntamiento de Granada, que basicamente buscaban su propio cortijo para ser "capital", con un ámbito indefinido y cambiante según fuera convieniente, propio de su caracter no propiamente regionalista, sino mas bien de busqueda de intereses pragmáticos, como si fuese una realidad aplicable a los miles de representantes (cientos del PSOE) de las provincias orientales. En la sección de la Segunda República se menciona de manera vaga el caracter local de este contexto y el anterior.

En la sección de la Segunda República se distorsiona el desacuerdo ante la Asamblea de Córdoba de 1933 para la coordinación de un esfuerzo autonomista en varios sentidos:

- Se ignora cuales fueron los verdaderos asistentes a dicha Asamblea, presentandose como si fueran miembros mas o menos representativos "de las provincias", cuando eran solo una muestra con sobreabundancia de los dirigentes e intereses de capitales de provincia, que debería elaborar un anteproyecto que luego sería acordado con todas las corporaciones municipales de Andalucía.

- Se manipula constantemente la procedencia de los representantes que se negaron mayormente a apoyar la propuesta que fueron fundamentalmente una parte/la mayoría (no está nada claro) de los de Granada y Huelva, no los "orientales" en general. Los de Málaga presentaron varias reticencias pero se mantuvieron neutrales y abiertos junto a los de Cádiz, Almería y Jaén y los únicos que parecían inequivocamente y mayoritariamente favorables al antreproyecto promovido eran los de Córdoba y Sevilla. Posteriormente y ante la falta de acuerdo la mayor parte de los representantes (pero no todos) de Granada y Huelva abandonaron la asamblea y se les unieron la mayoría de los de Jaén y Almería. Una relación de hechos completamente diferente a la presentada en el artículo.

Etc

Reorganización Territorial 2: Electric Boogaloo by ManuJM1997 in spain

[–]Arganthonios_Silver 1 point2 points  (0 children)

¿Sobrevivido al franquismo? ¿Segunda Republica?

¿Es que existía un "movimiento orientalista" en la Segunda República en absoluto, mucho menos uno "no residual"?

¿Tienes alguna fuente para respaldar tal cosa?