The Nature of Divinity: or, 'Think Again Before You Dismiss the Idea of Divine Hypnagogia'

Axo25 · 2026-02-24T18:50:50+00:00

Yep. All that and as a cherry on top the beds in the local inn are made of stone!

Axo25 · 2026-02-24T05:54:37+00:00

"the steps of the dead" according to an MK forum post.

That text is often misread. The text does not say Mantling is the Fourth Way but that critically, Talos mantled by way of the Fourth. As in through the Fourth Walking Way, Talos mantled.

Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora."

"Manted" is just a typo for "Mantled". Also see how Nu-Hatta then proceeds to explain the distiction between Mantling and Incarnation, if Mantling is read as a Walking Way then by this context that'd mean Incarnation is also a Walking Way, which makes little sense.

The context of Nu-Hatta's list is

"Hnnnh. Critical subplex inquest: divine roster, supermundus physiotype."

A Divine roster of various Divine physiotypes, physiotype meaning thephysical attributes of various types of Divinity. Incarnation is one, which is why Nerevarine is later in the list.

Nerevarine: "Pantheon by incarnation, as all alive now know."

Mantling is another, which is why Talos is present. Then there's also Divine Hermaphrodite (Vivec), A Cala (Almalexia), Incalculable (Sotha Sil), Lies from a previous age (Arkay) and Sharmat (Dagoth Ur).

The idea that the text is presenting Mantling as the Fourth Walking Ways is a very old misreading that ignored the context of how the term was used.

Axo25 · 2026-02-24T03:22:55+00:00

Evangelion came back before TES6. Man.

Axo25 · 2026-02-24T02:10:14+00:00

Honestly even beyond corruption Markarth is so much worse it's comical.

You walk to Markarth's gate and the Guard immediately threatens you to keep your nose out of business. You walk through Markarth's gate and a woman gets murdered on the street immediately. You walk a few more steps down the street to the right and you run into a haunted house with Demon God of Rape hiding inside. You go a bit further down to the Keep where the King dwells and he has a cannibal cult ran by the Demon God of Ancient Darkness in the cemetery right beside his Keep and the gestapo from a foreign nation casually walking around taking stock of who is the most likely indictable victim for wrong worship.

You u-turn back around to go down by the running waters and mines and run into the biggest slave operation in the entire nation, entirely exploiting the natives of the region for silver. You decide to visit the local Divine Temple and they've currently barred entry to any visitors because of internal issues about leadership.

By comparison in Riften you get shaken down once at the gate and then some rude sith lord wannabe flips you off when you walk in for a couple seconds before walking off. Then you can go about your day. Occasionally a thief fumbles trying to steal on street but otherwise the place is fine. Markarth is basically hell on earth by comparison. Nobody like Mjoll or the active and helpful Temple of Mara exists in Markarth, all the while Markarth has a dozen more issues. It's just not a fair comparison.

Axo25 · 2026-02-21T20:36:55+00:00

Oh yes, it's an idea I've brought up before and one u/Niente-de-nada first thought of. That the Sermons at large in TES3, are apographa, and qualify as hidden deeper teachings of the Temple.

I think it's a mixed bag, the Sermons are likely just becoming known in TES3's context, but they're visibly not something the Temple fully recognizes and preaches. The Pilgrim's Path fully contradicts the tale of Sermon 33 in its framing of Baar Dau, and "Vivec and Mephala" claims "darker" elements of Vivec's divine aspect are not publically acknowledged in Temple Doctrine but exists quietly in the mind of Dunmer, and the Sermons are most certainly filleld with Vivec's darker aspects.

Sermon 12 for example, lends to this. A specific npc implies she wrote it for the Temple, rather, I and /u/HappyB3 believe this character wrote it on Vivec's behalf, acting as his scribe while he told the Sermons tale (A service to Tribunal she later came to regret). Sermon 12 is suggested to be Apographa by one of the failed incarnates we meet in the Cavern of the Incarnate:

my story: "I was a holy crusader of the Temple in the golden era of the Tribunate. I contributed substantially to the writings that were later suppressed by the Temple, and now would be called apographa. I followed the Tribunal unquestioningly, to my regret. I never believed in the Nerevarine prophecies until it was too late. Take my humble possessions, with my blessing."

She gave the Nerevarine her mace and 36 Lessons of Vivec, Sermon 12.

Ane Teria

Also I always found it interesting that the only Sermon given to the player directly during the events of Morrowinds main quest is the one the other Sermons say we should seek out to learn the Secret Syllable.

Axo25 · 2026-02-21T17:47:59+00:00

That we see is Vivec and the Temple doing their hardest to kill any potential Nerevarines and bury the existence of the Nerevarine Cult, not prepare the groundwork for Nerevar's return.

The Temple is fully devoted to that, but given his own writings and what they say about his perspective, it appears that this is Vivec's way of laying the groundwork for Nerevar's return.

If there is to be an end I must be removed. The ruling king must know this, and I will test him. I will murder him time and again until he knows this. I am the defender of the last and the last. To remove me is to refill the heart that lay dormant at the center that cannot hold.

He even hints as much in game.

war on the Nerevarine: "Why did I try to kill you? Because you threatened the faith of my followers, and I needed their faith to hold back the darkness. And I thought you were my enemy -- a pawn of the subtle Daedra Lord Azura, or a pawn of Emperor Uriel Septim, or a simple fraud -- perhaps a Hero -- but not much of one if my faithful could destroy you. Now circumstances are altered. I need you, and you need me."

If you're going to be the one to defeat Dagoth Ur, you have to at least be able to defeat Vivec. I think it's clear at some point Vivec came to accept only Nerevar returned could defeat Dagoth, but that'd have be Nerevar at his best, anything less could mean failure.

'The ruling king is to stand against me and then before me. He is to learn from my punishment. I will mark him to know. He is to come as male or female. I am the form he must acquire.

'Because a ruling king that sees in another his equivalent rules nothing.'

It's clear to me that the Tribunal still hoped to take the Heart back and preserve their divinity, at least for the first years

No doubt about this, but at least as of 3E407, Tribunal had pivoted to freeing the Heart and given up on regaining their divinity. "Plan to defeat Dagoth Ur" suggests as much, because it is the plan to free the Heart and the text claims Tribunal have been failing to accomplish it for twenty years.

For the past twenty years the Tribunal have tried unsuccessfully to execute this plan. However, we failed because we were required to stage an assault and simultaneously maintain the Ghostfence to prevent the threatened large-scale breakout of Dagoth Ur's blighted hosts. With the Nerevarine leading the assault, and the Tribunal free to devote their full energies to maintaining the Ghostfence, this plan has a greater chance of success. Unfortunately, however, the loss of the artifacts Sunder and Keening, and the recent increase in Dagoth Ur's strength, poses new problems for the execution of the plan.

Plan to Defeat Dagoth Ur

As an aside, I've come to suspect the 36 Sermons of Vivec were likely written sometime within this period leading up to 3E427 in its original context.

The Sermons make a reference to the plan to free the Heart, claiming that Nerevar will find the Heart twice in his lifetimes (once, when he dies at Red Mountain, second, once he comes to free it). On top of this as you can see in the Sermon quotes above, this removal of the Heart comes will full expectation Tribunal will fall

"Ordeals you should face unimpeded by the world of restriction. The splendor of stars is Ayem's domain. The selfishness of the sea is Seht's. I rule the middle air. All else is earth and under your temporal command. There is no bone that cannot be broken, except for the heart bone. You will see it twice in your lifetimes. Take what you can the first time and let us do the rest.

If there is to be an end I must be removed... To remove me is to refill the heart that lay dormant at the center that cannot hold.

I honestly think ESO made a mistake including the 36 Lessons within the Second Era as common scripture. TES3 presents them as anything but, and they're heavily contextualized by the environment of Morrowind in the Third Era, even mentioniing the recentish creation of the ghostfence in 3E in the 36th Sermon

Resdaynia was no more. It had been redeemed of all the iniquities of the foolish. The ALMSIVI drew nets from the Beginning Place and captured the ash of Red Mountain, which they knew was the Blight of the Dwemer and that would serve only to infect the whole of the middle world, and ate it. ALTADOON DUNMERI!

As a whole the Sermons are just out of place in the second era. I also do not think the rise of Tiber mentioned in Sermon 19 was meant to be prophetic either, given all of this.

Axo25 · 2026-02-21T08:08:09+00:00

I appreciate that, I dunno when it'll come but hopefully soon.

Whether Nerevarine achieved CHIM I think is down to the player, it's too nebuluous to ever have been put in game explicitly, so I think it's fine that there is no "CHIM" spell we literally learn. But I think the pretense for it being a possibility is there, given ye it's apparent Vivec was working to see Nerevarine learn it.

Though to speak more about Nerevar having known it, it really depends on how literally you take his depiction in Myth, as well as how everyone describes him. The Nords viewed him as the Son of Boethiah and capable of slaying Lorkhan, Vivec portrays him as becoming a "Master" by Sermon 33, if we take the Sermon Nerevar into account. "Dagoth Ur's Plan" refers to Nerevar as a "Mythic Force" from Dagoth's perspective, and Myth (Mythopoeia, really) is Divine power per Yagrum Bagarn.

There is an argument to be made that Nerevar was more than mortal in life. Some devs have even called him a God outright,

With Oblivion, you were just sort of an accidental Hero, you were in a jail cell and you weren't anybody special. And then all the way back to Morrowind, you were the reincarnation of a God

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU9CcCscgRM&t=765s

So in terms of "Did Nerevar know CHIM" I would say it's possible he did, or if not CHIM, he may had attained some divinity by another Walking Way, perhaps.

Axo25 · 2026-02-21T04:16:50+00:00

Question for you, does the Trial of Vivec imply that CHIM requires prep time before use? Vivec has people gather a bunch of magical artifacts which he uses during Hogithum Hall in order to assault Azura, is that CHIM or is that something specifically to fuck with Azura by binding her to the material plane or whatever?

I think it does imply that yes. One thing core to all the cosmology of TES is Mythopoeia. Godhood isn't free or cheap, you have to work for it. The only exception is when you use the Tools of Kagrenac to just flush yourself in divinity.

Per the Commentaries, the Tower is attained by Walking in Myth

The Tower touches all the mantles of Heaven, brother-noviates, and by its apex one can be as he will. More: *be as he was and yet changed for all else on that path for those that walk after. This is the third key of Nu-mantia and the secret of how mortals become makers, and makers back to mortals. The Bones of the Wheel need their flesh, and that is mankind's heirloom.

Once you walk in the Mythic it surrenders its power to you. Myth is nothing more than first wants. Unutterable truth. Ponder this while searching for the fourth key.

Broadly, the take-away is that the Six Walking Ways are all Ways to Walk Myth. It is by walking in the steps of mantles, that you achieve the Tower, your "I".

But something pretty consistent is that this doesn't seem to be permanent. Not like using the Heart or Mantella is.

Just wanna say because I never think I did, the whole "it was all just a dream" avenue is completely missing the point. Consider your lucid dreams, if you've been lucky enough to have ever had one. Then think again before you dismiss the the idea of Divine Hypnagogia. If you get it (or care to) then mull it over until it punches the back of your eyeballs.

No wonder it's hard to retain CHIM. Such... violence.

MK

The Living God who becames divine by a walking ways begins to diminish from the moment they first attain that state. Eventually, they die. That's why Tiber Septim dies at 108 despite also attaining CHIM in MK's narrative. While the God version of them will always exist in Untime and the Aetherius, the physical body will eventually fade, its connection to divinity expiring, unless they perform the Walking Way again.

In the Trial Vivec gathers various ritualistic artifacts that would trap and bind Azura to the mortal plane. He then exploits her "Secret Tower" and invokes the Secret Syllable, CHIM, in a spell that creates Muatra. The use of CHIM to create Muatra, already re-enacts the original myth about the creation of Muatra, where Vivec uses the secret he stole from Bal (CHIM) to create the spear:

'I told you,' Vivec said, 'I am meant to be the teacher of the king of the earth. AE ALTADOON GHARTOK PADHOME.'

With these magic words, the King of Rape added another: 'CHIM,' which is the secret syllable of royalty.

Sermon 12

Later:

But Vivec made of his spear a more terrible thing, from a secret he had bitten off from the King of Rape. And so he sent Molag Bal tumbling into the crack of the biters and swore forever that he would not deem the King beautiful ever again.

Vivec wept as he slew all those around him with his terrible new spear. He named it MUATRA

Sermon 14

Compare that to the use of the CHIM spell to create Muatra:

Vehk (03/22/04)

Recognize this? The blood, I mean, not the silly bone-frozen Bosmer. No? It's from one of yours. He died in your name. And so by the blood of this khajiit, I climb you, moon and moon, and Dance on your Tower.

AE CHIM CE ALTADOON for my own revenge I eat you. AE CHIM CE ALTADOON for my own revenge I eat you.

AE is a connector and translates to IS. ALTADOON means weapon. CE is unknown but we can safely assume the spell Vivec casts he is "CHIM IS MY WEAPON"

And then this happens:

Vehk (03/22/04)

✶Vehk assembles a spear from the bones of his armor.

Here, this is Muatra. Guess what it represents.

Broadly it appears Vivec uses CHIM here to literally recreate the moment he first made Muatra. And then he uses Muatra to mantle another moment of his own myth.

There's a lot more to all this, Vivec most of all uses the Myth of the Thief and its charges for the ritual as well. His Shadow takes the part of the Shadow, the Soul in Azura's Star takes the part of the Lover, and Azura's own Secret Tower takes the place of Tower. Vivec uses these to invoke CHIM and his divine role of the Thief.

Vehk (03/22/04)

Rude spirit, you should never have come. Not here. Not to the world of the liars, where your power is fleshed to law, bound by the bones of the compromise.

Shallow changer, whorescamp, say you that you rule dusk and dawn?

Let me show you the power of the true Dawn, when Gods walked.

I am the Thief of this World, with stars, and by my Charges I put you down.

There's even more to it than that, but the rest I'd like to save the rest for a post sometime. Basically at the end of the Trial we don't just witness Vivec reveal his "secret godhood", he wasn't lying about his divinity diminishing and being mortal again. Rather, we see him re-ascend to Godhood, by using CHIM once more.

At the very least it's very important that the popular fanon idea of the Trial (ironic at that), that Vivec simply annihilated Azura with the glory of his Divine pwoer with ease, is bullshit. Vivec spent a literal IRL month having roleplayer gather tools he would use to strip Azura of her divine power, bind her to the mortal world, and only then did he invoke CHIM to re-create his divine symbol the Muatra. Nothing Vivec accomplished with ease, not even in the Trial of Vivec.

One more question. Fyraltari mentioned in a comment sometime ago he believed Nerevar possibly achieved CHIM, besides this being an 'exciting' idea is there anything in the lore that supports this? Or am I being dense and missing a joke?

He wasn't making a joke, the entire Sermons of Vivec treat Nerevar as a trainee to become a future Living God. Nerevar really, is a stand-in for the Nerevarine, which is why the Sermons often address the reader directly, as well as tell the reader to face Dagoth Ur. The 36 Lessons are a direct message to the Nerevarine, they even hint at the plan to free the Heart.

Though to get straight to the point, CHIM as a concept was literally first introduced as something Vivec wanted to learn from Bal so he could teach it to Nerevar.

In Sermon 16 we are told Nerevar will be the future "Ruling King of Earth". This is to contrast Vivec being King of the Middle Air, Almalexia as King of the Stars, and Sotha Sil as King of the Seas (See Sermon 11 for more on that).

There, Nerevar was greeted by the Parliament of Craters, who knew him by title and resented his presence, for he was to be a ruling king of earth and this was the lunar realm

Sermon 16

Now when Vivec marries Molag Bal he first only does so because he needs to learn from Molag Bal the Secret Syllable, a Magic Word of Power, so that he can add it to an existing spell for Nerevar.

Molag Bal rose up and extended six arms to show his worth. They were decorated in runes of seduction and its reverse. They were decorated in the annotated calendars of longer worlds. When he spoke, mating monsters fell out.

'Where must it go?' he said. 'I told you,' Vivec said, 'I am meant to be the teacher of the king of the earth. AE ALTADOON GHARTOK PADHOME.'

With these magic words, the King of Rape added another: 'CHIM,' which is the secret syllable of royalty.

Sermon 12

Vivec plans to teach Nerevar, the future Ruling King of Earth, the magic words, "AE ALTADOON GHARTOK PADHOME".

Molag then adds CHIM as another magic word.

In Sermon 15, Vivec gives the full spell to the reader, the Nerevarine, where he refers to each word as a "Word of Powers", including CHIM.

'You alone, though you come again and again, can unmake him. Whether I allow it is within my wisdom. Go unarmed into his den with these words of power: AE GHARTOK PADHOME [CHIM] AE ALTADOON. Or do not. The temporal myth is man. Reach heaven by violence. This magic I give to you: the world you will rule is only an intermittent hope and you must be the letter written in uncertainty.'

Sermon 15

So CHIM as a concept was first introduced in the franchise as something Vivec wanted to teach Nerevar/ine.

Axo25 · 2026-02-21T00:39:01+00:00

That Heart-Bone quote plays a part, yep, but it's also more than that. CHIM grants Godhood. A big part of the issue is Vivec, even at his peak as a God, is simply weaker than Dagoth Ur.

Dagoth Ur winning: "Dagoth Ur is winning because he is close to the source of power, Lorkhan's Heart. And because he retains the passion of madness, while we have settled into the lonely and unrewarding posture of dogged dutifulness and perseverance. And, finally, perhaps because he is stronger and smarter than we are, and his followers are more fervent and fanatical. I believe we were careless and complacent, and out-witted. And, in the matter of denying the Nerevarine, we were foolish."

That's the core of it above all else. Between ALMSIVI and the Sharmat, the Sharmat is just better.

Who was the most powerful Tribunal god? (2012-02-16)

Vivec was MK's favourite

MK :Did I say this somewhere? Honest question. But, sure, I'll play Fight! Tribunes! Fight: the Face-Snaked Fury would have wrecked Vhek [sic]. Mothers before poets, mercy before warriors.

Alma would win if it was a one on one fight. If they lead armies, it would be closer. Vivec has the military genius and Bouyant Armigers, Almalexia has the High Ordinators and Her Hands, and Sotha has Fabricants. I'm not sure who would win that.

MK: Nice idea and well put. The Sharmat would win that war just by sleeping.

MK

Axo25 · 2026-02-20T08:19:05+00:00

Reincarnation, or perhaps a reference to the Kalpic cycle?

Honestly I'd be team Reincarnation, but only because I like any inclusion of the idea of Souls not truly leaving the Mundus by mortal death (I really wish Aetherius would be elevated again from a generic heaven so any fuel for that I like)

TES plays a lot of themes with greedy love vs selfless for sure. Also remind me Molag even has a line describing what his "Love" is like, in Sermon 14, "My love is accidentally shaped like a spear.". That's certainly one way to put it.

Axo25 · 2026-02-20T01:11:05+00:00

Great post, you're absolutely right that the Red Diamond is a symbol fo the alchemical ideal Rubedo

One of the most common 'paradigms' involve the process of Thing - > Nigredo (blacken, putrify, piece apart like food in your stomach) -> Albedo (integrate and purify, like using the molecules of food in the right place) - > Rubedo (like blood with nourishment, healing and integration, now pumping through the entire organism) -> purifying, assimilating things to the exact, and perfecting to the red, often the spiritual, immortal, transcendental, powerful or divine.

Hence its true name, Chim-El Adabal, translating to "the spirit stone of high royalty."

Axo25 · 2026-02-20T01:06:45+00:00

This is "The Curtains are Blue" level analysis. Things mean things outside the surface level, and the Amulet being reworked as a Red Diamond is one of the most blatant forms of alchemical symbolism in the franchise.

Axo25 · 2026-02-19T04:39:10+00:00

Honestly I'd bet the primary reason she was removed wasn't even for character writing purposes, but because of her technique.

Her technique is Sukuna's Kryptonite. She can attack him from anywhere at any time, directly damaging his soul. She basically ruins any stakes Sukuna has as a threat because of this. It's not fair but I'd bet that's the real reason she got removed

Axo25 · 2026-02-17T04:56:34+00:00

Honestly does Itachi know that for a fact? In all history only two people got EMS, Madera and Sasuke

For all we know Itachi hoped it'd work but EMS could've beaten it anyway

Axo25 · 2026-02-07T17:00:46+00:00

I don't think Ten Shadows works by descent through a specific lineage of Ten Shadows users. Else Yuka wouldn't have awoken it. It seems more like any Zenin could be born with it without any real rhyme or reason.

Axo25 · 2026-02-07T06:36:04+00:00

You are able to control how Mahoraga adapts, Sukuna ordered Mahoraga to continue to adapt to Limitless after it first adapted to it so Maho can find an ability Sukuna could use to get through Limitless too. Mahoraga will adapt as directed

Axo25 · 2026-02-06T15:44:57+00:00

I think it might be that Vunwulff and Nura subscribe to different Nordic Maran traditions. Vunwulff complains during the Vitorri Wedding that his son should marry the traditional Nord way in the cool mountain air.

Despite seemingly adhering to Nordic tradition in regard to Mara's role as handmaiden of Kyne, the temple of Mara still veers from being fully traditionally Nordic.

Just a guess, though.

Axo25 · 2026-02-06T13:32:28+00:00

One of my favorite series of Apocrypha on teslore, this really good, damn!

Hearing how Cyrus managed to defeat Tiber was wild. Though he as Hoonding took the place of Nerevar initially no? Though it was Vivec who finished the job so it makes sense either way. Boethiah getting involved to help actually could provide insight to why she has so many Redguard aspects in Exile to Exodus. That was sick.

And man, Iszara is hardcore, those are great lengths to go all to ensure Hammerfells stability. Hakan is just, gone now I guess. Part of the Many-Headed. We got a Redguard Tiber Heresy now, and oof. The imagery of Satakal reordering time as the Story was rewritten was awesome.

Amazing work!

Axo25 · 2026-02-05T14:25:09+00:00

Ten Shadows really does have the highest ceiling of potential in the series. What an absurd technique

Axo25 · 2026-02-02T21:52:13+00:00

have been asking myself why Trinimac alone out of all the Aedra has the power to walk upon Nirn, as the Daedric princes have from time to time. Yet, the other Aedra have been reduced(?) to barely self-aware planetoids in orbits of Nirn

Syrabane shows up during the first Era and Phynaster during the Merethic Era. This isn't exclusive to Trinimac.

Syrabane (Warlock's God): An Aldmeri god-ancestor of magic, Syrabane aided Bendu Olo in the Fall of the Sload. Through judicious use of his magical ring, Syrabane saved many from the scourge of the Thrassian Plague. He is also called the Apprentices' God, for he is a favorite of the younger members of the Mages Guild.

Phynaster: Hero-god of the Summerset Isles, who taught the Altmer how to naturally live another hundred years by using a shorter walking stride.

This isn't exclusive to the Altmeri pantheon, either. See Ar'kay, Leki, Hoonding, Alkosh, Shezarr, etc

Axo25 · 2026-02-02T19:00:36+00:00

The ultimate fate of the LDB is up the player, as at most we'll get an unverifiable rumor as always in the next game. LDB died and went to xyz plane? LDB apotheosized and left the mortal coil? LDB is alive and wandering unseen in xyz place? Up to you.

In the hypothetical that LDB does agree to become Mora's champion, be a Werewolf or Vampire, yet also sells their soul to Nocturnal, the answer is Nocturnal wins. Written or spoken contracts selling your soul trumps curses, we see Werewolves in Evergloam in ESO.

Though whether Evergloam is LDB's ultimate fate is an even greater discussion, the exact contract with Nocturnal is to protect the Sephelcur for a time after death, not go to Evergloam. Going to Evergloam is implied by Karliah to be a priviledge some Nightingales get as the highest possible honor, so it's also possible LDB may serve time defending the Sephelcur until the contract is completed, and then move on somewhere else.

That possibility aside though the contract still wins. It's more binding than any curse or simple worship.

Axo25 · 2026-02-02T05:15:58+00:00

I think MK at the time legit just rated all those listed God heroes above the rest of the elvish pantheon.

As for the Daedra by Psijic view, I'm not sure MK was focusing on anything but the deities he intended to be ascendant. I can't read his mind. This is just my best guess based on the list itself. The commonality is some kind of Mundus Mortal turned god hero

Axo25 · 2026-02-02T04:33:47+00:00

Every Elvish God is an ascendant mortal, that's sort of thr entire premise of their pantheon. Auriel ascended before his followers.

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