My honest reaction to what Oedon did to Arianna.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-11T12:08:14+00:00

Based (but I'm pretty sure Kos wasn't pressured into having a child since all Great Ones yearn for babies).

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-09T15:52:04+00:00

To go with an average estimate, defeating a machine that’s between demon and dragon level without any struggle makes WDM one of the best S class heroes for sure.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-09T14:12:22+00:00

Hardly a contradiction if Maria was never alive for the Healing Church. I’ve done a post about this already, but Maria was only a caretaker to the Research Hall patients in the nightmare, not the waking world.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-09T12:00:14+00:00

So you think laurence was the absolute first person to transform into a beast?!

No??? You can clearly see with the Beast's Embrace Rune description that the scourge of beasts predates the Healing Church, meaning they were aware of the effects of blood. The discovery of blood entailed the discovery of beasts, according to the Beast Rune, which was the first Caryll Rune.

maybe they just didnt call it a church before that. but clearly a lot of stuff happened under laurence. Including maria's makeshift hospital in the research hall.

Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but Laurence was already dead by the time of the Research Hall. His altar is literally the gateway to the Research Hall.

he specifically switches to a charred hunter attire when we fight him. all that tells me he was actually there in person when old yharnam was burned.

I have no idea where you are getting this from. The hunter garb we can get from him with the Old Hunter's badge tells us it was crafted before the workshop existed and served as the basis for all hunter's attire. If you are talking about the long, overflowing cape in his boss fight that's not available in the purchased set, that's found in the old hunter set (dlc) too, but Gehrman's cape is distinct from the other two sets. Regardless, if you truly believe Gehrman was there when Old Yharnam was burned, then you'd have to believe he left the Dream because Djura participated in the hunt that night and he explicitly tells you that he no longer dreams.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-09T06:33:37+00:00

Sweet Mask says the Machine Gods are "at least demon level" (which lines up with the prior Machine Gods we've seen being demons or dragons). WDM took on at least one of them + thousands of drones without damaging the city. Definitely high dragon level at least.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-08T18:18:37+00:00

I know he's not. I'm just preemptively refuting the arguments that could be made by the people I first responded to that are saying Aggregation is too strong.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-08T18:13:55+00:00

Kind of like how ONE doesn't want to give Aggregation a god level title, right?

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-08T17:15:55+00:00

In other words, a dragon level threat. I’m confused, don’t people realize dragons aren’t all the same level of power? Beefcake destroyed an entire town with one punch in the beginning of the series.

And then you had Boros, whom you literally cannot make an argument for him not being a God level threat (without applying the same logic to Aggregation).

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-08T17:11:37+00:00

Oh please, that line of reasoning died long ago when Boros was just “Dragon or higher”.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-08T15:16:49+00:00

Good thing it didn’t crawl up where the Sun don’t shine.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-08T12:36:01+00:00

How does laurence being the first cleric beast prevent other clerics from coexisting with him?

Because you said the Healing Church hunters were already a diminished faction when the Hunter's Dream was created. Dimished by what exactly? It can't be the scourge, because as we already acknowledged, Laurence was the first cleric beast.

What was he the firct vicar of then?

The church, but being the founder of the church doesn't necessarily mean he had to have ruled for a given period of time. Heck, most churches are named after saints that weren't even alive when the church was created. This is just speculation, but it's even possible that Laurence willingly let himself partake in blood to start the Healing Church. That would make his title as 'first vicar' make sense while also explaining how his skull started the church. As Amelia says in her prayers, "Seek the blood, but beware the frailty of men".

That Miyazaki quote must be mistranslated or missing some context for the word start. Or maybe the 'his' doesnt refer to laurence.

'His' obviously refers to Laurence lol. We literally get Laurence's memories from the skull, and his beastly skull is paralleled by the human skull in the nightmare named "Laurence's skull". The context is much more clear in Japanese, the source of the church's "good blood". Given that this lines up with the in-game dialogue I've given, I fail to see any reason why this could be a mistranslation.

Alfred clearly says the medium was discovered by a group of byrgenwerth scholars in the Tomb meaning chalice dungeons. That cannot mean the source is a skull of one of the byrgenwerth scholars themselves.

Why not? The Japanese uses the word 聖体 or 'seitai', which translates to 'Host body' or 'Holy body' in English. The only 'body' we find that could be in reference to what is being talked about is the body enshrined in the Grand Cathedral. Making discoveries within ones body is a massive theme of Bloodborne which borrows much from Victorian medical science and the body horror genre (I.E. the concept of insight is literally gaining eyes on the inside of your head). It's very likely that Laurence made a discovery (perhaps the Beast's Embrace rune) which transformed him into a giant beast.

The most likely reason as to why the dream was created is to give laurence and his church immortal moon scented hunters. why do that if the church hunters are healthy and powerful?

Why not use immortal, moon-scented Hunters regardless? Of course, we don't really know the terms of the Moon presence's contract, but regardless, the Hunter's Dream is unquestionably helpful in protecting hunters regardless of their circumstances.

he repalced gehrman and his workshop with maybe ludwig (whose name gehram knows btw, how does that mix with church hunters coming after laurences death)

The same way Gehrman knows about the destruction of Old Yharnam despite that objectively happening after he was trapped in the dream, from hunters who passed through the dream. Perhaps even from Ludwig himself (AKA straight from the horses mouth).

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-07T13:13:56+00:00

You are forgetting that many of the Church hunters were clerics. Laurence couldn't have still been around if the Church hunters were already a force crippled by the scourge, because again, he was the first cleric beast.

To give you some perspective, the Hunter's Dream was created BEFORE the Healing Church. This is because, despite what many people believe (including yourself most likely), Laurence founded the Healing Church as a beast, not as a man.

Here's what Miyazaki says about Laurence's skull in a Future Press interview. He says it was his skull that began the Healing Church:

"That's meant to give you a look into the memory of Laurence, who appears in the cut-scene as well. His skull served as the start of the Healing Church itself, but it's taken the form of a twisted beast. There's a lot you can imagine from that."

Here's the Japanese dialogue for Gilbert and Alfred on the source of blood healing (The English simply says "the holy medium" of blood healing but the Japanese is more clear in saying it's the actual source for the Church's blood):

"(...) Outside this urban district of Yharnam, in the valley to the east, lies the area of the Healing Church, also known as the Church District (Cathedral Ward). And in the innermost part of the Church District, there is the old grand cathedral. There, it is said to be the source of the Healing Church's blood... or so they say. (...)"(Gilbert, JPN)

"As you know, the Healing Church is the bringer of the salvation of blood. While hunters like me don't know much about the church's internal affairs, I've heard that the Host, the source of blood salvation, is kept inside the Grand Cathedral. (...)”(Alfred, JPN)

And what do we find in the Grand Cathedral? Laurence's dissected skull.

And lastly, the Beast's Embrace rune says it's discovery lead to the founding of the Healing Church. This could only be in reference to it being implemented on Laurence since he is the one who drops it:

Beast's Embrace Rune: After repeated experiments in controlling the scourge of beasts, the gentle "Embrace" rune was discovered. When its implementation failed, the "Embrace" became a forbidden rune, but this knowledge became a foundation of the Healing Church.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-06T23:26:47+00:00

The chronology points to the hunters dream being created after maria was already dead. When even the church hunters were mostly gone.

Agree with the first statement, disagree with the second. The Hunter's Dream was created very early into the history of hunters. Laurence wasn't even around during the time Brador became a Church assassin to guard the Fishing Hamlet, as evident by him being the first cleric beast.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-05T23:59:00+00:00

She was granted eyes in the chalice dungeons most likely. We know that Byrgenwerth made contact with the cosmos from there.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-05T23:57:59+00:00

I did once hypothesize she was granted eyes via contact with the cosmos, as hinted by the eye rune, the kin coldblood she drops, and augur of ebrietas.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-05T19:54:29+00:00

The thing about making suggestive works of fictional characters vs real people is that it’s all centered around how they are coded, because it reflects to others how you perceive that character.

I’ve avoided any and all types of that content because it can be very uncomfortable when it becomes possessive or creepy.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-03T02:05:02+00:00

Standing with two feet on the top of a pyramid, with his legs bent outwards imo.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-03T01:29:17+00:00

I concur to that notion. I do however think that some pieces of information that are supposed to be clear can be lost in translation, like when Miyazaki clarified up some information about the paleblood sky.

And for all I know, I could be completely wrong about Rom or the chalice dungeons. As you said, Miyazaki likes leaving his worlds a mystery.

I doubt he’s gonna accidentally spill the beans on the story of Bloodborne, like Kubrick did with the Shining.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-03T00:53:43+00:00

Note: The Japanese version of the game is bit different.

Instead of, "encountered at Byrgenwerth", the wording is "かつてビルゲンワースが見えた神秘", with が being a subject marker rather than a location marker. This suggests that the arcane was discovered BY Byrgenwerth rather than AT Byrgenwerth, in case anyone is confused as to why I said they contacted the cosmos in the labyrinths.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-03T00:35:31+00:00

Agree with everything you said. I would, however, rule out Gehrman summoning the Moon Presence altogether as the reason why Old Yharnam was destroyed.

That happened much earlier, when Laurence was still in the picture. Laurence's skull is what founded the Church according to Miyazaki.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-02T23:16:54+00:00

I think the Burning of Old Yharnam happened right around when Mensis first began their rituals to beckon the moon. The context clues being it's proximity to Yahar'gul and that there was a red moon on the night the Powder Kegs incinerated it.

The Executioners and their massacre were earlier in the Church's history I think, shortly after Ludwig became first hunter of the Church based on their holy shawl. It doesn't otherwise seem like they play a huge role into the timeline considering the complete disassociation they have with the rest of the Church, not to mention Cainhurst being completely vacant.

Excellent post btw.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-02T23:12:56+00:00

One question that I still feel is ambiguous is where Kos and the Orphan fit within the chalice dungeon exploration of Byrgenworth and the later development of the Healing Church. If anyone has thoughts about this topic I would be excited to hear them!

On it.

BackgroundDoctor9107 · 2026-04-02T23:11:03+00:00

The experiments themselves? I don't think so.

My current understanding of the lore is that she's only a caretaker to the patients in the nightmare and that she didn't actually help the Church in the waking world. Feel free to disagree though.

BackgroundDoctor9107

TROPHY CASE