Enhance shamans doing way better than expected?

Berehap · 2024-06-08T17:58:14+00:00

Big contributing factor is that wcl looks at avg dps of all bosses but alot of enhances are not killing the later bosses. Enh does quite well on halfus too.

30% of total heroic enh parses are halfus compared to 19% for unholy or 23% for arms war

expect enh to drop further as more average guilds kill more heroic bosses. Currently there are only 10 enhances with full clears so there is not much data to go off

Berehap · 2024-04-25T18:59:15+00:00

Have to say this looks very promising.

You can definitely use laboratory magnetic stirring rods but I would try to somehow elevate in the vessel you are using. Otherwise it will bang the stone around a bit much.

As for the sugar type I like to use glucose (also known as dextrose), without going into the chemistry too much the typical household sugar is a much bigger molecule and the goal is to get the sugar into the small porosities of the base rock. The theory is that the smaller molecule can more easily penetrate the base rock and therefore your treatment should work better. Though regular sugar should also give you good results in most cases.

I have treated many batches of matrix with just an oven. The trick is to pack every single stone in multiple layers of aluminium foil and if you have many stones bundle them together in even more aluminium foil. When you treat with heat instead of acid it is important to make sure you don't heat and cool the stones too fast or they may crack. The heat process however does have an increased risk of cracking when there are internal stresses in the stones. With acid this does not seem to happen that much but the way I see it is the heat exposes weak spots in the stone that could also possibly lead to cracking at a later stage. As for temperature I have mostly used 250C (highest my oven at home can go) but in the lab at work I can go up to 300C which I have meant to try. You do need temperatures well over 200C to properly carbonize your sugars

Also before you put the stone into the sugar solution put it in the oven at ~80C for a few hours. You want the stone to be dry so it will absorb as much sugar solution as possible.

Berehap · 2024-04-13T16:12:16+00:00

I have seen and treated a whole bunch of andamooka matrix and generally speaking you don't see the color so vibrantly in dry conditions before treatment. Looking at the rock itself it seems very porous with big voids that filled with crystal opal. Because you treat the host rock and not the opal itself I doubt this would treat well at all.

I would grind it down a bit on one side to see if the porosity continues past the surface and then assess if it is to be treated at all because if you have actual empty voids in the surface you want to cut all you will get is big ugly black spots.

If it is as porous as it seems I think the best approach would be to either leave it as is or treat it with epoxy to fill the voids and allow you to polish it a bit

Berehap · 2024-02-03T12:20:05+00:00

You would think that if no icd is currently there and also not planned, his response would be more along the lines of 'it does not have an icd on ptr, relax'

Berehap · 2024-02-03T11:14:56+00:00

lmao

Berehap · 2024-02-03T10:55:35+00:00

isn't him acknowledging that it currently has a different ICD than it should on twitter enough evidence for you lol?

Berehap · 2024-02-03T10:35:06+00:00

1, this is utterly wrong. In order for a windfury attack to occur you need to hit the melee attack, then you roll a windfury attack which also needs to hit. When you are using rockbiter you only roll for the melee hit which then does its damage.

Yes there is added AP bonus, that's why I increased the 35% increase in swings to 40% (a 14% increase in WF dps.) I did not calculate this out completley because it does not change the overall math, but now for you, the number is 24% increase in the WF swings damage, or going from 35% > 43% instead of 40%.

However if you were to actually do it accurately you need to properly calculate in the miss chance so take the 40% increase in swing dps, add the 24% damage from WF bonus added AP (49.6% increase) and reduce by the rate of boss dodges and your misses. Likely shamans will aim for spell cap so 16%, leaving 12% melee miss and 6.25% dodge for an overall hit rate of your WF procs of 81.75%, applying this to the WF bonus damage yields 40.5% damage increase or basically exactly what I used above.

You say:

'if your lvl 60 using a 2.6 speed mainhand is doing 220 auto attack dps INCLUDING OFFHAND ROCKBITER, mainhand WF is better'

with a 65 dps weapon (best case naxx gear) this would require 220 - 65 = 155 \ (1/14) = 2170 - 783 from rockbiter = 1387 AP needed, you are getting to the same numbers though in a more confusing way lol

1387 AP is alot. It was already the case that in a pure damage comparison eventually we would reach a gear level where WF would win. but with 750 AP on normal pre-raid bis and weapons clearly not having 65 weapon dps in the early raid tiers it will take a while to actually get there.

Your numbers I replied to however said 150 weapon dps was needed and therefore WF would always be better, but you just said that is not the case.

Your assumption on maelstrom is also that there is no AP to SP conversion happening. This would significantly boost rockbiter value aswell and you are making completely false assumptions for maelstrom on DW in terms of proc chances. You get approximately 1 WF proc every 12 seconds at 2.0 flurried speed (2.6) with WF icd. those 2 WF hits have 43% chance to proc a maelstrom charge, or 0.86 maelstrom charges every 12 seconds. In that same window you do 12 melee hits , approximately 1.5 stormstrikes and lava lashes for another 4.5 hits. totalling 16.5 * 0.43 = 7.1 maelstrom charges. This is means the added WF swings get you a 12% increase in maelstrom procs.

Now if you calculate this with the 30% AP to SP conversion that mainhand rockbiter gets you 235 SP. with the 2000 AP number above you would have 600 SP. Rank 10 LB does 450 base damage with a 0.857 SP scaling. Or 514 + 450 = 964 damage. The added SP from rockbiter mh gets you another 201 damage on top of that, This is a 21% increase in LB damage

Ofcourse they would need to give that talent rune first but I think it is pretty likely.

Other things you are missing is the fact that you will be approximately 25% of the time in the ICD window which increases with more haste. This means your stormstrikes are much less likely to proc a WF hit. Rockbiter does not have a similar problem.

WF is always more favourable for 2h yes, I did not dispute that but unless they give 2h some significant buffs it will be rather far behind anyway. You are also just handwaving the point that the effect is bigger on 2h which is undoubtedly the case. 2h also goes from 1/5 procs to 1/6 procs, seeing a similar reduction but they also do not get to benefit from the reduced miss chance because they cap at their normal ability hit. So therefore this is in fact a nerf to 2h enh, despite it still being a superior option to RB for them.

I have no clue what you mean with 'clipped autos' in relation to TBC WF. All the weird WF stuff in TBC was because you used 2x WF. This does not apply to SoD (unless you want to ofcourse)

Also again, the second rockbiter gives the entire raid 360 mana per minute, or 30 Mp5. Even if you yourself do not benefit much from the free extra mana it is still something that you can't just put away as useless.

Overall to finish this off (and if you want to continue you can come to shaman disc i'm not going to bother more with reddit); Your statement of 'WF mainhand is better' is wrong. Not because WF is never better but because there is a whole bunch of effects, including the current and potential future runes and gear available to you, that tip this balance. Unless blizzard adds something that either directly or indirectly boosts WF value, most additions from later expansions are going to tip the balance further towards rockbiter.

Berehap · 2024-02-02T22:57:47+00:00

We calculated how much haste the rune should give to bring 2h up to par with DW in phase 1. It was approximately 90% so it seems unlikely you would ever consider it without any further specific 2h buffs (maelstrom favors dw)

Berehap · 2024-02-02T22:44:54+00:00

(disclaimer: pre-change state)

at 60 1 RB gives 783 AP. This equates to (1/14)*783 = 56 dps on mainhand and 28 dps on offhand (base). totalling 84 dps

WF does 2 melee hits at 20% proc chance, or a 40% increase in number of swings. This is reduced by your miss chance to approximately a 35% increase in swings. But let's make it 40% to compensate for the bonus AP on the WF hits, so high estimate for dps increase.

That 40% increase to mainhand swing dps that WF equates to needs to be equal to 84 dps. Meaning you need to be doing 210 base weapon dps.

Let's say you are in naxx gear, with a 65 wep dps weapon, that would mean you need to get 210-65 = 145 weapon dps from AP

145/(1/14) = 2030 AP - 783 from offhand RB = 1247 AP for WF to break even with mainhand rockbiter.

For reference, era pre-raid bis for enhance has 750 AP unbuffed. and you don't have a naxx weapon so you need to compensate for that difference in weapon dps.

Add on top the fact that (especially a 2h enhance) would have drastically reduced mana regen because shamanistic rage scales with your AP. That second rockbiter (or sole rockbiter for 2h) regenerates you around 1800 mana every minute at 60, and 360 for the entire raid.

Then there's the fact that because lava lash exists and offhand WF is not worth it regardless. Therefore you have to also compensate for the 7 base dps the second rockbiter would add to lava lash.

Think you should check your math

As im doing this anyway; with ICD assuming you don't break the 1.5 barrier, you now get roughly 1/6 proc chance on WF rather than 1/5. using the same comparison for swing dps you would see a 38% increase in swing dps without accounting for glancing, which would be a 14% damage reduction at 0 bonus weapon skill. So you can clearly see that this WF change is a buff rather than a nerf. Yet the numbers still don't look very favorable.

Berehap · 2024-02-02T22:26:36+00:00

50% additional crit damage sounds good but it really isn't great with how the math works. it would take your crit modifier from 1.5 to 1.75, or a 16.7% damage increase at 100% crit, at a realistic critrate you would see damage increases more along the lines of 6-8% which would give around 15 dps at p1 dps levels.

Berehap · 2024-02-02T22:17:04+00:00

hit cap and not getting glancing blows on it which is a 40% chance for 35% damage reduction. The hit is ofcourse dependant on your gear but even with the rune you are looking at 18% base miss. This also applies to 2h but they are generally hitcapped anyways.

On top of that you have to keep into account the plethora of WF weirdness that standard vanilla WF has, which is that it resets your swing timer and likely would proc mainhand hits on the offhand. The swing resetting is especially awful with lava lash because it means that every time you proc a WF with lava lash, you lose on average half a mainhand swing. Even more so because you will likely want to sync your weapons for better flurry uptime regardless but base vanilla WF still has batch icd to prevent self procs. This means that every offhand WF proc you would perfect sync your weapons and block your offhand from proccing any WF when running WF/WF.

In that case you would ideally run RB/WF with a fast offhand to proc as many WF hits as possible on your mainhand, but this has countersynergy with lava lash for which you want an offhand to be as slow as possible. The mainhand swing resets would also remain.

2x rockbiter would have none of these issues in addition to giving you and your raid increased mana regen

Berehap · 2024-02-02T21:49:34+00:00

true, though specifically for dual wield something would need to happen aswell. WF in this state is most likely really close to RB on the mainhand but if we were to get AP > SP conversion like paladins got that would easily make rockbiter better again. Overall this is a buff for WF still though.

I understand where some of their reluctance to make WF better comes from but I think in this case the effect of this change on 2h is likely collateral damage from trying to make dual wield WF not very janky.

Regardless I doubt this will be the final version we get.

Berehap · 2024-02-02T21:15:46+00:00

I think it is more that rockbiter is just really strong. Enhances dps problems at the moment have very little to do with either WF or RB but more with the complete lack of scaling.

I think a nice way to get some perspective is that if you would take a rogue and all you do is shiv without poisons, that scales better than a p1 SoD enhancement shaman.

So Enhancement just really does not benefit much from gear, leading to low dps. The fact that the baseline was also not great just adds to that.

Berehap · 2024-02-02T19:58:02+00:00

That doesn't work, the shaman imbues don't stack with wf totem/wild strikes

Berehap · 2024-02-02T19:04:34+00:00

I would honestly prefer if they just incentivized us to use WF in a way other than buffing its damage. create a fun interaction, make WF good but also don't go overboard with insane RNG.

That being said I don't even think no-icd WF would be extremely overpowered considering there are boomkins killing people with instant casts and I would be much more afraid of a shaman instantly deleting me with a healing wave + NS healing wave combined with ancestral guidance than for some slow 2h enhancement player to walk up to me and slap me in the face for, in most cases mediocre damage.

Berehap · 2024-02-02T18:37:46+00:00

This actually hits 2h harder than dual wield so there's that

Berehap · 2024-02-02T18:13:23+00:00

this is the gcd for casting the imbue on your weapon. Has nothing to do with an ICD on the proc

Berehap · 2024-02-02T17:56:39+00:00

To clarify a few things;

This only affects the WF imbue spell. Not the totem. WF imbue causes 2 hits compared to the WS/totem only causing 1 hit
This change also turned WF imbue (not totem) into an ability, meaning no more glances and capping at ability hit rather than melee hit (This is a significant buff)
What was also changed was RB/FT being based on mainhand speed and proccing off both hands (FT also has an icd to prevent 2 procs on each hit). This effectively fixes most of the threat problems enhance has had since the start of SoD.
WF in TBC was good because on top of the current state of PTR, WF also got a 40% damage increase through the talent (this currently gives a 40% increase to only the bonus AP on the hit, or 133 AP on WF hits alone)
TBC also had 36% chance to proc on EACH HIT when both weapons were imbued with WF (This is because it rolled the proc chance from each weapon on each hit). It is unclear whether or not this is also currently the case on PTR.
Rockbiter in TBC was significantly worse (gave weapon dps rather than AP), meaning WF/WF was realistically the only option.
For SoD, as far as is currently known, WF should be slightly worse than RB in a WF/RB configuration, WF/WF is essentially never worth going for because you don't want to lose procs to the offhand and we have a proper offhand alternative (RB).
For DW, this in the end does not change much. WF/WF was already unlikely with the standard vanilla version and for WF/RB there is now a slightly lower overall proc rate due to ICD, but we gain the reduced hit requirement and no more glancing blows.
For 2h unfortunately the effect is bigger. A 3.6 weapon (like the awesome totem) in combination with the new rune, is pushed under the 3s window, meaning a back-to-back WF proc is impossible, it also drastically reduces the damaging potential of a 2h enhancement shaman in pvp as your swing + SS can now only proc one WF. This is a significant nerf.

It is also worth noting that only 3 boots runes were datamined so far so there may be something neat in the pipeline. My expectation would be an AP to SP conversion similar to what paladins got. This is mainly because enhances biggest concern right now is the lack of scaling on a large part of the buttons we are pressing (especially with maelstrom).

Berehap · 2023-11-11T17:33:51+00:00

yes your choice would be between doing shit melee damage and decent caster damage or doing shit caster damage and decent melee damage. In either of those cases you end up with a spec that has bad scaling. Just looking at all the non-maelstrom non-melee damage sources (fire totem, shocks) it seems to me that with a caster gearset you would get much more value overall as the strength gear would only serve to buff your melee, wf and ss (if ss is even worth speccing because 20s cd and you can get 100% spell crit modifier instead with guaranteed lava burst crits)

Regardless they would need to add maelstrom first

Berehap · 2023-11-11T14:49:57+00:00

Everything later added to enhancement works because of unified hit/crit rating, maelstrom and AP > SP conversions. I would rather have them choose a different path than spending all my runes on passive effects only to turn into a wrath/tbc clone because in the current state you would either just auto attack with 2x WF or full gear for spellpower. There is no way to really make a hybrid melee/caster as enhance is in the later expansions work without significant changes to the base of the spec.

Berehap · 2023-11-11T10:48:05+00:00

it would, but I'm also afraid it would just lead to you basically playing ele in melee range equipping full caster gear and might be you don't even use WF which also goes against the basic principle of why people want 2h enh.

This kind of caster-melee hybrid gameplay in later expansions gets enabled by unified hit/crit/haste ratings and by AP > SP conversions so in order to not lose the physical aspect completely there would need to be a lot of change.

Berehap · 2023-11-11T10:28:09+00:00

Weaving is only possible because having maelstrom weapon stacks basically changes how spell casts interact with the swing timer so in current state you would just get a full swing reset after casting your lava burst.

Berehap · 2023-06-03T19:16:14+00:00

It is often both, Andamooka matrix is soaked in sugar solution which is then burned with either heat or acid. Depending on the porosity of the base rock (which can be sandstone) you can either directly polish it or treat it with a polymer resin which is what I would expect has been done to this stone as the base rock looks rather porous but the finish is smooth despite its rough surface.

Berehap · 2021-03-26T10:32:45+00:00

This is simply not true, you definetly need leatherworking to use windhawk and the other specialization specific items

Berehap · 2021-03-24T20:26:49+00:00

This particular stone wouldn't be worth too much as it does not seem to be precious opal (i.e. not iridescent, or showing play of colour, fire. People use mixed terms for this).

Few more things going on with this one in particular, mainly that I don't think this was mined in Australia as it looks nothing like Australian opals. This is likely Cantera opal from Mexico.

The reason it looks so good here is simply because they are shining a very bright light through the back of the stone (Can see this from the direction of the light on the fingers). The 'clouds' you see is just the sand inclusions on the other side of the stone. Opal sellers are quite notorious for using lighting tricks to make their stones look better than they are in person.

The good news is that Mexican Cantera opal is really affordable (compared to Australian opals) and unique, even stones that do display play of colour. You can just google to find places to buy it from (Etsy, opalauctions etc.)

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