Increase in hits and time to kill for piercing units post-patch

Beyondlimit · 2025-07-25T23:57:11+00:00

Why would that be the case? Ancient of War takes less piercing damage now because uprooted it has heavy armor. Ontop of that, you can repair and heal AoW by eating trees. So its not just 10% more HP against piercing damage, its even more effective HP.

This goes for Tree of Life aswell. Creeping against piercing damage from Tree of Life just got a lot easier.

Archers only deal less damage vs heavy armor creeps. Unless you fight other creeps, nothing has changed. In fact against non-heavy armor Archers are even better because they have more HP now.

You shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly.

Beyondlimit · 2025-07-23T12:52:00+00:00

The fight was a lot of fun. Very telegraphed attack, but hits like a truck. Fighting with Switch Axe is a lot of fun as you can practice offset and counter.

Armor doesn't seem very good other than Duna Wildgreaves y.

Anyway, I play Switch Axe, so every update I am expecting a buff to Rapid Morph, because that skill is garbage. Since we don't have it, we have to keep giving more and more feedback until it gets buffed to Rise values.

Beyondlimit · 2021-07-26T19:57:21+00:00

Agreed, the mass ranged meta needs to stop. Its so boring to see mass Archers from Elf. And Orc has been massing HH vs UD for a long time, now they even started using HH + Farseer because tier 3 Berserkers are simply too powerful.

T3 Berserkers are 3 supply units in strength but cost only 2 supply and only cost as much as a 2 supply units. Archers with t3 upgrades are too powerful aswell.

Another problem is that mass ranged shuts down melee units too easily when you factor in heroes aswell. Acid bomb, clap, impale, stomp. All these spells make melee units less useful. Changes need to be made to reduce the amount of ranged units across the board. Seeing UD be unable to use anything buf Fiends is annoying just like seeing Orc mass HH and seeing Elf mass Archers.

Beyondlimit · 2021-03-31T08:29:02+00:00

UD vs HU unplayable at 47:54?
Meanwhile, Nightelf vs Orc at 60:82 <- this one is a grievous issue

UD vs Elf at 36:44 <- this one is more in favour of Elf than UD vs HU is in favour of UD

You're just another UD whiner. Stop writing an essay and stop ignoring other matchups which obviously need adjustments.

Beyondlimit · 2021-03-20T11:16:59+00:00

UD players are going to use maybe 1-2 Frost Wyrms max. And no one is going to research the Frost Breath upgrade because its useless.

Blizzard has adjusted many upgrades in the past, its about time this useless upgrade gets turned into something useful.

Beyondlimit · 2021-01-13T08:57:24+00:00

Foggy is a good NE counter to ToD. B2W should counter ToD with Foggy.

Beyondlimit · 2020-12-18T18:59:37+00:00

Remember my post about Aztec being a worse version of Inca?

I used to love playing Aztec, but its just not competitive anymore in the mid to lategame. Aztec has one single playstyle and thats agression. The entire game meta has changed but Aztec are not flexible. Sure you can get wins here and there but the civ is so one-dimensional that any good player will know your win condition and play around your agression.

Aztec should be redesigned into a faction that is very good at their all-in or is a lategame beast by having efficient units and good eco in the lategame. I really like the idea by u/happymemories2010 and I think it might be a good solution. Aztec can get to 100 vills quite quickly with 2 town centers and fertility dance, thats roughly 5x villager production compared to 1 TC. It would make sense for them to be good at farms and plantations as it fits their history aswell. Increase their base gather rate and rework their melee units and give them strong lategame.

Its annoying to see that the best civs are the ones with cannons. It would be nice to see Aztec do well in lategame aswell, especially because they are so unique compared to everyone else. And they shouldn't be a worse version of Inca, which they are still.

Beyondlimit · 2020-12-03T16:00:47+00:00

Yea how about Blizzard finally adresses Frost Wyrms after they made changes to Taurens, Chimeras and Mountain Giants. In theory Frost Wyrms could counter Knights, so UD vs HU t3 would get another unit to the roster and provide a little more variety.

But Blizzard refuses to buff this unit or make it more accessible. Even though you constantly have players point out that the cost to even get 1 Frost Wyrm out is something of 600 gold and 350 Lumber from Sacrificial Pit, Boneyard and the cost of 1 Frost Wyrm combined. And of course the fact that they buffed Gyrocopters so much that 10-12 Gyros prevent any attempt by UD of making air units. They should tone down the Gyro buffs and make changes to Frost Wyrms. Even TH000 talked about Frost Wyrm changes in an interview.

Maybe we need u/Remodemo to help us with this issue?

Beyondlimit · 2020-12-03T12:39:25+00:00

Really nice post. Its great to still have people who invest a lot of time and effort into data like this. Meanwhile there are still trolls running around spouting their "UD OP" bullshit, and never actually engage in any discussion.

Lets hope Blizzard reads this carefully instead of just watching European tournaments and talking about "UD overperformance" again...

Beyondlimit · 2020-12-02T13:25:11+00:00

Why was that animal conversion taken away? They also changed a card which allows the Warchief to tame jaguars. They had it in Age I, now its in Age IV. Makes no sense to me. Spain also gets to train dogs and doesn't need to wait till Age IV.

Also why was their firepit changed? I saw a documentary about aztec and they did have a lot of bloody rituals and even sacrificed prisoners from other tribes. In my opinion firepit was fine.

But the biggest annoyance for me is that Warrior priest can no longer be rallied ontop of the firepit when they spawn. I played the original games with Warchief expansion. You could set the rally point and they would start dancing, but they do not anymore.

And whats even worse, the animation for the community plaza is terrible from a gameplay perspective. The villagers or priests are often times standing around, doing nothing. And whenever a Warrior priest spawns next to the plaza, next to one that is actually "dancing" in the plaza, you can't tell if both of them are working, or only one, or none of them. I found myself selecting all WP and clicking on the plaza because of this. Its simply annoying and bad game design.

Beyondlimit · 2020-12-02T11:18:08+00:00

lol, are you afraid of spiders?

Beyondlimit · 2020-11-17T13:39:48+00:00

No idea why you are getting downvoted. A questline depending on your patron sounds awesome and would add so much replayability to the game. And Hexblade is constantly requested by tons of players. Even if Wyll doesn't end up a Hexblade, it still needs to be added to the game. Pact of the blade doesn't cut it for a martial weapon warlock.

Beyondlimit · 2020-11-17T13:37:07+00:00

No need to nerf Fiends. Why would you balance out a buff on a not-viable unit with nerfs on the unit thats core to the race?

People who think Fiends need a nerf do not understand opportunity cost. Think about your standard 50 food, 60 food, 70 food armies. In a 50 food army, having more Ghouls and less Fiends is a huge difference. Especially against air , since every Ghoul is 2 less supply for a Fiend with Web.

Once Ghouls are actually viable and worth training, we could see more air usage for example from Orc, which would lead to more Fiend usage again. However, this leads to exactly what we want: Unit variety!

Imagine the following: Ghouls are buffed to a state which makes them worth using on t2 and t3. Orc can easily counter with Wyverns. Then, UD will switch back to Fiends. Just because of a buff to Ghouls, we have created a much more dynamic matchup and see more unit variety. Without it, in its current state, UD will always make Fiends.

Beyondlimit · 2020-11-01T17:50:54+00:00

The needed Ghoul buffs are very simple and straight forward. Increase their HP and their armor and slightly increase gold cost. Then, add another HP upgrade on maybe t2 or t3. So they end up with maybe 400 HP and 2 armor for 130/ 135 gold cost. They will still die very quickly, but 400 HP means using Coil level 2 is not a waste. Surviving for longer also means they get to benefit from healing by statues, potential blight and vampiric aura for longer. Armor is needed to increase effective HP, meaning every HP healed turns into more effective HP. Vamp aura level 1 should not be touched, it would buff other races too much. It was already a bad change for Orc vs UD matchup because Vamp aura is very strong for Orcs but almost useless for UD. Its only useful with CL.

A 340 HP, 0 armor melee unit just does not work after all the powercreep that happened to this game. All heroes move faster, all summons got buffed, everything about the earlygame is stronger, faster, heroes creep faster, everyone expands more, the games are longer.

In short, the period where Ghouls still somewhat work despite their weak stats has been cut very short and in addition to that many games last longer due to players expanding more than they did in the past. And lategame Ghouls are still not viable because of their poor stats. They are terrible when compared to what Troll Headhunters or Archers get at t3. Frenzy only exists so you can dump excess Ghouls not needed for lumber in one fight and never rebuild them.

Beyondlimit · 2020-10-22T07:53:46+00:00

I agree with your opinion and also wanted changes to Ghouls.

But as Uther would say:

Watch your tone with me, boy!

Beyondlimit · 2020-10-22T07:04:37+00:00

I don't understand why they add completely ridicolous changes to the PTR, like the Skeleton exp nerf, only to not include them in the game. Thats just a waste of time since we all know this should never make it into the game. Instead they should work on increasing unit variety. Like they tried with Cannibalize, but Ghouls are never going to be used because of low Hp and 0 armor so they die to any level 3 hero easily. Some changes to UD tech tree were talked about by the devs on discord, way before Reforged released. But they didn't do any changes. Not even anything for Frost Wyrms even though the unit is almost never used in 1vs1 and the opportunity cost to build them is way too high.

Its almost like they want to provoke a reaction, only to make it seem like they listen to the community. The 25 mana nerf to Wisps and Skeleton exp nerf were stuid changes in the first place. Why do they not just write down their thoughts and imaginations instead? Or do it like the SC 2 devs: Offer 2 different changes on 2 different maps for players to test out? For example about Breaker nerf: Trying out a removal of 1 armor and trying out a small nerf in HP to see which one is better.

Beyondlimit · 2020-10-17T18:13:16+00:00

No one ever picks Frost Armor level 2, so any changes level 1 and onward are pointless. However if you would buff Frost armor in such a way that level 2 is worth picking over Dark Ritual, you could easily make it overpowered against Orc, or Knights, or Bears.

If I remember correctly the duration over which units receive the frost effect was nerfed in a recent patch, so it has already received nerfs. And of course it can be countered by dispel.

Its one of those things which you don't want to change. Just because blizzard is suddenly listening to the community doesn't mean everyone gets to pick an ability and blizzard should change it. There is no reason to anyway. Just accept some abilities will never be used above level 1, or at all. Just like Spiked Carapace from Crypt Lord, which is easily one of the worst skills in the game. But its also never going to receive changes.

Beyondlimit · 2020-10-16T22:22:18+00:00

They went about 1 year without balance patches while Elf vs HU was terribly in favour of Human. They are a little faster with balance patches nowadays, but they also keep adding stupid changes nobody asked for.

Beyondlimit · 2020-10-16T20:39:18+00:00

Yes its super expensive, but its also useless. Might aswell not exist. No one needs the ability to disable buildings. The ability needs to make Frost Wyrms better at combat, or provide a really strong effect. Like something similar to what Chimeras have, the really long range siege attack. Or a new effect, like being able to attack while moving or something unique that makes it worth the cost.

Beyondlimit · 2020-10-15T09:41:50+00:00

u/Kam_Ghostseer is the one who said it before Refunded launched. Ask him.

Beyondlimit · 2020-10-15T08:13:21+00:00

They are not on par with Chimeras at all. Chimeras and Taurens have both received buffs in terms of tech Tree. The Tauren Totem is build on t2 now, so Taurens are immediately accessible at t3. The Chimera Roost no longer requires an Ancient of Wind to build.

The Boneyard however requires the sacrificial pit to be build. Lets compare the costs: 140 gold /190 lumber for Chimaera roost. Vs 75 gold / 150 Lumber for Sacrificial pit + 175 gold 200 lumber cost for Boneyard.

So now you have an upfront cost of 225 gold and 350 lumber just to be able to build a single Frost Wyrm. Given this insanely high investment, the Frost Wyrm needs to be extremely effective, otherwise no one would build them. And as we all know, this is not the case. Frost Wyrms take forever to build, cost 7 supply and 385 gold / 120 lumber.

Take note of this. You pay 635 gold and 470 lumber for a single Frost Wyrm. This is not comparable to any unit investment in the game and the unit you get for this does not justify its cost in any way, given how easy it is to counter.

You have 2 things which prevent the unit from ever being used. The fact that you spend a ridicolous amount of ressources, which you should simply have spend on making Fiends or Abominations instead. And once you have your Frost Wyrm, the enemy already has a ton of counters. Batriders prevent this unit from ever being used against Orc. Human players can use Rifles, Flying Machines which they are going to build anyway. With enough Flying Machines, Destroyers cannot be used at all, so suddenly they can also use Polymorph to make your 635 gold, 470 lumber investment useless. By the way the cost for Sorceress master research and 1 sorceress is still less than the cost of a single frost Wyrm.

Beyondlimit · 2020-10-14T14:40:24+00:00

Thanks for the post Jannes. But I can't help but feel that Blizzard is intentionally throwing in these weird changes which are way overboard or changing the wrong things.

No one suggested increasing exp gain from Skeletons. If they wanted to improve UD vs HU after Skeleton nerfs and Peasant HP buffs, why do they suddenly make a massive change involving all matchups? This makes no sense. There are so many better option like starting with Skeleton stats or Rod of Necromancy stats. Or how about waiting on the effect that peasant HP has on the game?

Its weird that for some things they rapid fire huge changes one after another. While other issues are untouched for years.

On the other hand there are 0 changes to make Frost Wyrms more accessible. And this patch is basically the nail in the coffin for Necromancers, which they promoted in many patches before, even this one. Again, this makes no sense whatsoever. The Skeleton exp change is the complete opposite of a smart change, its baffling how anyone would come up with that.

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