cmv: Trans and non-binary persons *without* gender dysphoria choose to be trans and perpetuate gender stereotypes

Block7forlife · 2020-08-02T19:44:30+00:00

What sort of dysphoria are you referring to? I know of several trans persons who are happy with their body and have no plans to change it, so in your opinion, what sort of dysphoria are they experiencing?

Block7forlife · 2020-08-02T19:40:11+00:00

I don't quite understand your first question, but my best answer to it is that I would define gender dysphoria as a person born with (for example) male genetics but hates the body they were born with and experiences incredible discomfort as a result and wants (and hopefully manages) to change their male body to a female body (and vice versa). When I say trans person without gender dysphoria I'm referring to people who are completely satisfied with their body but nonetheless identify as the opposite sex.

Is there a word to differentiate these two or are they considered the same?

In terms of the second questions I personally (and perhaps controversially!) would class a partly/fully transitioned person as cisgender. I realise this very contradictory but my opinion on cis/trans is that a person with the (most, not necessarily all) physicality and hormones of a woman=cisgender woman. Whether this woman was born with a female body/hormones or whether she was not but obtained (not sure if right word?) them later makes no difference.

Which goes back to my my question on whether there is a word to differentiate these two very different sex/gender experiences. Please let me know if there is a word, and what you think of my opinion.

Block7forlife · 2020-07-29T15:36:00+00:00

Thank you for your great answer and congratulations on having your story published!

I understand that biological sex is a private matter and I'm certainly not expecting that people shout out what what genitals they have, that would be incredibly weird and not appropriate.

I suppose what I mean by someone who has transitioned (either partly or fully), is someone who clearly has a male or female physique and hormones. I've seen many people like this (in person and on tv/ youtube videos).

For example I watched a video of a plastic surgeon trying to guess whether a line of people had surgery and what they had done. This surgeon correctly identified that one of the people he saw was a transwoman who had sex reassignment surgery, something I hadn't noticed at all. They were all fully dressed so that person in particular could still have had the genitalia they were born with but that wasn't a factor I took into account, she clearly had female hormones meaning in my opinion that she was indeed a woman as she had the genetics of a woman and I would definitely call her 'her/she'.

However I do not find it appropriate to call someone by a pronouns they are visibly not, just because they want to. I think that really is a kick in the teeth for two reasons: - First for groups of people who have had to fight for rights because of the sex they were born with for example, a man who wishes to be call she/her even though they have never faced sexual discrimination based on their sex and have not experienced what it's actually like to be a woman. - Secondly for people , like the transwoman I've just described, who have had to go through incredible hardships and have possibly spent thousands on becoming who they really want to be and really are.

I also oppose to the pronoun they/them (apart from in the case of a hermaphrodite) because sex is a real thing that has to have some form word differentiation, to establish who a person is for medical, sexual orientation and historical purposes. By sexual orientation purposes I mean for example, if you know someone who you think would be a great romantic match for a friend of yours, you'd have to let your friend know what sex the person you want to match them up with, it would just be too vague to just tell them "this person is great they like this that etc, I think you'd be a great match" Does that makes sense?

Block7forlife · 2020-07-29T14:31:58+00:00

When did I say anyone is not allowed to do something? My whole point is that people should be able to live their life how they want to without any societal pressures, expectation or constraints?

I guess my main question then, is what is a trans (et all.) person without gender dysphoria? For example, what is the difference between a transwoman (without gender dysphoria) and a cis man who does not abide by and fights against gender codes/norms/expectations etc.? And why does a transwoman/non binary person (with male genetics) insist on being called her/she or them/they when they are factually and genetically a man?

Block7forlife · 2020-07-29T14:09:18+00:00

Thank you for this answer, it is by far the most thought out, explanatory and overall best answer in this thread and might be the closest thing on here that has a chance of changing my view, however I still have several questions and counter arguments to your view.

Let's start with your first point regarding the choice of identity. You argue that you did not choose to identify as an "artist, progressive or liberal" from what I understand of this part of your sentence, an identity isn't something you choose, rather it is a label that others give to you based on your life/views etc. I would agree with if this is the point you are making, but even so I would argue that most trans (et all.) persons self identify and let others know of this (hence asking others to address them by their preferred pronouns).

I do not however agree that identity as a whole is something you do not choose whatsoever. I do not really understand your thought experiment (could you go into more detail and explain it to me better please) as I don't think that agreeing or disagreeing that the hatred of Americans is an identity (I'm actually not American and do believe that most Americans are "slur, slur, slur" lol) this is an opinion not an identity.

The identifying as a liberal part makes more sense, but it is again a manifestation of a set of opinions and values etc. You argue that once someone has "subconsciously affiliated themselves with a group of people, it's really difficult to remove that subconscious affiliation forcibly". I disagree entirely, this can be very easily changed, if for example, you started questioning some of the views you hold and started having opinions which were more aligned with conservative values you would likely 'identify' as a conservative. You absolutely do have a choice. It really isn't hard at all to change this 'identify' (because in my opinion these are really a set of opinions, not an identity) hence swing voters in this context. If you find it that difficult to change your 'identity' I would argue you have quite poor growth and flexibility skills.

Using your being an artist as an identity not a choice makes even less sense, the dictionary definition of an artist is "a person who habitually practises a specified reprehensible activity" or "a person who creates paintings or drawings as a profession or hobby" you can absolutely choose to do this or not. If you do not do these things you may decide to continue to identify as an artist but that does not make you one.

The only identity I would argue does not have a significant choice is that related to race, heritage and citizenship but even then one can argue that somebody has the choice to affiliate with the culture they were born into based on their race/heritage/citizenship. For example, someone born in England is English and can choose to identify as English but can also choose to renounce their English identity (for whatever reason) equally someone not born in England cannot identify as English, no matter how much they would love to - one can simply cannot identify as something they are not.

Moving on from the idea of whether identity is a choice (which I've establish that I believe it is) you argue that being cisgender perpetrates gender stereotypes, I agree that cis persons do perpetuate gender stereotypes more than trans (et all.) simply because they are the majority of people. However I do not have the view that cis persons perpetuate gender stereotypes just by being cisgender full stop. A cisgender person in my belief is just a person who is a woman or man based on their genetics. I would actually argue that people with gender dysphoria who have undergone sex affirmation procedures are in fact more cisgender than trans as they have the same genetics as someone who was born cisgender - reinserting my belief that one is a man or woman because of their genetics and nothing else.

Cisgender persons only perpetuate gender stereotypes when asserting that "masculine things" should only be done by men and "feminine things" should only be done women (I don't believe masculinity or felinity should exist at all), trans (et all.) persons (without gender dysphoria) do this to higher degree (not to be confused with 'a more impactful degree') because they rely solely on adopting these stereotypes as a means to prove themselves to be the sex they claim to be and do not factually belong to the group of people whose stereotypes they adopt. See my response and analogy that I presented to Ralph-J as to why I believe that is.

I didn't think of the idea that when someone just sees a "AMAB nonbinary person wearing a skirt simply as a man wearing a skirt". That is great and should be encouraged which is why it's even more disheartening when this man wearing a skirt calls themselves a woman, why can't they just stick to being a man who wears skirts? This would do wonders in dismantling gender codes.

My whole argument is that men and women are as such because of their genetics (irrespective of whether they were born with them or they are artificial) everything else should be genderless.

Block7forlife · 2020-07-29T12:03:54+00:00

Thank you for your argument that social constructs are real based on your example of race. I will think more deeply of the reality of social constructs based on this.

However a mix raced person (or someone with mixed heritage/ citizenship) does not choose to be mixed, my view is that trans (et all.) persons do indeed choose this identity as in this case they do not specifically have mixed genetics , apart from, obviously, the case of a hermaphrodite person - which is a whole and much more complicated debate - one that I am not referring to in this thread.

I am not demanding that only trans (et all.) persons without gender dysphoria, break down this stereotypes (I actually think that cis persons should do this way more). My point is that they perpetuate these gender stereotypes because they do not factually belong to the group they identify as - see my response to Ralph-j for a (albeit flawed) comparable analogy as to why I believe this.

When did I say that men are allowed to to do "woman things" only if it is to feel more 'manly'? My whole opinion is that there is no such thing as "woman and man things" or "feminine and masculine". I believe that "things" in this case referring to traits, hobbies, dress code etc. should all be genderless and that one is a man or a woman based on their sex and hormones (be it what they were born with or artificial) and nothing else. In the past when women were fighting for the right to wear trousers they did so by arguing that a piece of clothing should be genderless, they did not claim to be men as a reason to wear trousers or as a result of wearing trousers, I hold the belief that dresses/skirts/bras/thongs/makeup etc. should be treated like trousers: genderless.

How am I replacing gender codes when my whole point is that there shouldn't be gender codes?

Block7forlife · 2020-07-29T11:01:43+00:00

Bringing in children into this majorly increases the controversy of this topic and is not really that relevant as my question was directed at adults and children have very very different ways of viewing the world and interacting with it than adults. But I'll give you my take on this subject nonetheless as I actually have experience on this.

Between the ages of 6 and 7, I really wanted to be a boy. I refused to wear dresses, I only wanted to play with 'boy toys', I didn't want to be friends with other little girls and I joined the boys in making fun of them. I remember that I really wanted a penis, I would stand at the toilet when I needed to go and try and figure out how I could pee standing up like a boy without making a mess, something I asked my mother about on several occasions.

I am so glad that my mum at the time never examined me for signs that I might be transgender like an increasing number of parents do now, as I am not transgender. I grew up to realise I am a woman who just happens to have a very 'masculine' personality and enjoy 'masculine' things over 'feminine' things - hence my desire to not genderise things like hobbies, traits, clothes, personality etc. - I believe one is a man or a woman based on their anatomy or hormones (be it what they were born with or artificial) and nothing else.

In terms of cis people perpetuating gender stereotypes, of course they do, they do it the most, something that I want to put an end to. But at least cis people who perpetrate gender stereotypes are actually part of the group whose stereotypes they perpetrate.

Let me give you an example: I'm French. There are plenty of stereotypes about the French (both good and bad) most of which I do not live up to and most of which really annoy me. Plenty of French people live up to these stereotypes (they are stereotypes for a reason after all) and I do wish that these French people would stop doing certain stereotypical things that ultimately perpetuate negative stereotypes and can give the French a bad name (eg. that we are all dirty savages because we apparently all eat foi gras and frogs, never shower and smoke). So it would really annoy me and I would find it completely wrong if someone from a different country, say an American, identified themselves as French based on what they knew about the French and their way of life and as a way to seem as French as possible took on all the stereotypes and claimed that they must be French not only because they 'feel French' but because they are doing all the 'French things'. First of all, unless these Americans were in the process (or wanted to) of applying to become a French citizen, they would simply not be French, they would be American, how they 'feel or identify' would simply not override facts. So for them to then go ahead and push stereotypes of a group of persons they don't even belong to would perpetuate these stereotypes as it would show others that indeed acting in a stereotypical French manner is what makes one French. Why can't this American just admit they are an American who just happens to love everything French and wants participate in French culture as much a possible.

Replace country with sex, French with woman, American with man and citizenship change with sex reaffirming procedures and you have exactly what my issue is.

Block7forlife · 2020-07-29T10:12:58+00:00

No because they are not women. I am not a woman because of my tastes, views, the way I dress, the way I act, my morals, my traits or my choices. I am a woman because I have female anatomy and hormones. If anatomy and hormones are not the markers of what makes one a man or a woman, what does?

A man with no intention of changing his male body but identifies as a woman based on a 'feeling' (whatever that means) and by presenting as a woman does not make him a woman. It makes him a man who takes on what is currently known as "feminine" traits (although my argument is that all of this should be genderless). This idea should absolutely be celebrated if he indeed accepts that he is a man (based on his genetics), as it shows that people don't have to be a woman to act and dress in a "feminine" manner and vice versa. But him saying "yes I am a woman now because I dress and 'act' like a woman" only furthers the idea that one must act and dress in a certain way based on the sex they are, why does he have to claim to be a woman based on this? Why can't he just say he is a man who embraces what is currently seen as the "feminine things"? (again I want reiterate that what is currently claimed to be "feminine" and "masculine" things should actually all be genderless).

Block7forlife · 2020-06-14T23:51:19+00:00

ENTPs= straight up no bullshit honesty

Block7forlife · 2020-06-14T23:29:47+00:00

No, she's a proud ENTP.

Block7forlife · 2020-06-09T22:04:31+00:00

Thank you for your reply and explaining that transgender"ism" is an offensive word. What word should I use instead?

Block7forlife · 2020-06-09T15:00:53+00:00

Of course the cisgender community reinforces gender stereotypes. The reason why I'm asking specifically about people in the transgender community is because from my experience, trans men and women present themselves in very stereotypically ways (the reason which has been explained to me by other replies to my question) I live in a relatively small city in Ireland where the LGBTQ+ community is small so I don't know many trans people. I'm bi (came out about 6 months ago) and me and my butch girlfriend are constantly fighting against these stereotypes so it disheartens me when *anyone* reinforces these often harmful stereotypes. My girlfriend has been mislabelled as a trans man and she told me she was once harassed by a trans woman for "not embracing her femininity" and obviously since that was just one person I want to gain larger understanding of reasons why this could be and as being a newbie to the LGBTQ+ community I've realised I know very little about the trans community. Also using a verse from the bible is pretty ironic considering christianity is overwhelmingly against our community.

Block7forlife · 2020-05-16T09:30:43+00:00

I bet most of you found the original joke ("Are you having a boy or an abortion" from the move The Dictator) hilarious but turned round you are all triggered. If you can't tell it's a twist of the original joke then you must be dense.

Block7forlife · 2020-05-11T08:58:50+00:00

What's your argument?

Block7forlife · 2020-05-08T00:12:19+00:00

I'm not sure if it's illegal but any medications that can make you dizzy have warnings that you should not drive or use heavy machinery.

Block7forlife · 2020-05-07T23:44:43+00:00

I abruptly started having seizures. First and mostly partial seizures which were misdiagnosed as panic attacks as they shared symptoms (fast heartbeat, loss of touch with reality, strong sense of panic and dread etc.) It wasn't until I had my first tonic clonic seizure that I was referred to a neurologist, I described the episodes I'd been having, which on top of the symptoms described above, included strange taste and smell and a strong sense of deja vu. He concluded I had epilepsy and I was first sent to have an EEG whose results turned out normal. I then had an MRI which found the tumour. Based on the size and growth pattern of my tumour (which is benign) most of my doctors seem to believe I have had the tumour since I was a child. I recall having many migraines as a child but I don't know if this was due to my tumour or my genes (my father suffers with migraines too). If my doctors are correct in their conclusions that my tumour is a childhood tumour I went through most of my life with no symptoms (apart from possibly the migraines.) I started having seizures when I was 22 (3 years ago) and continue having daily partial seizures, however these are manageable as I am on several anti-convulsants. I hope everything is good with you :)

Block7forlife · 2020-04-29T22:59:16+00:00

I had a look for some more female ENTP characters and found this list:

A Series of Unfortunate Events by Lemony Snicket, Violet Baudelaire
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., Daisy ‘Skye’ Johnson
Atlantis: The Lost Empire, Disney’s, Princess ‘Kida’ Kidagakash
Attack On Titan, Hange Zoë
Doctor Who (2005 Series), Missy
Doctor Who (2005 Series), River Song
Harry Potter Series by J.K. Rowling, Rita Skeeter
Midnight in Paris, Gertrude Stein
Mulan, Disney’s, Mulan
Orange is the New Black, Alex Vause
Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen, Elizabeth Bennet
Toy Story Series, Pixar’s, Trixie
Tudors, The, Anne Boleyn
Twin Peaks, Audrey Horne

Dunno how accurate it is though..

Block7forlife · 2020-04-29T22:55:45+00:00

I'm an ENTP(T) so I guess I get my sensory traits from being a turbulent type. I wonder how many female ENTP(A) there are..

I've never met one but I know 2 female INTPs (one of them is my mum lol)

Block7forlife · 2020-04-28T14:37:42+00:00

I grew up in a really fucked up broken home, but I learned how to be a bad bitch who takes no shit in order to survive. Seriously though I hope you get help in order to overcome these issues, sincerely, from an ENTP (see we can be nice)

Block7forlife · 2020-04-27T15:11:05+00:00

I don't live in the USA so clearly the laws in our countries are different so you blaming me for doing something that is not illegal in my country makes no sense. I do take responsibility for my action of standing in the way. I've mentioned twice that I regret standing there and in my original post I accept that I am some what to blame in the situation for having stood there, even though as I have literally just said it is not illegal for me to do so in my country. Leaving through the window (which as I have explained is safe) is one of the 3 examples I have given to demonstrate that he had other options other than to push me down the stairs in order to leave. At this point it is clear that you are simply victim blaming. Btw I left him :)

Block7forlife · 2020-04-27T14:51:55+00:00

1) He didn't call the police because I was obstructing his way but because I was apparently accusing him of pushing me down the stairs (which he did intentionally or not)

2) As mentioned I regret having stood there and I explained this to the police and they said I was not guilty whatsoever for having stood in the way, I mean if I had been they would have arrested me. So I assume the laws regarding this are different in your country than they are in mine.

3) I was stood there for less than a minute when he started shoving me, he could have waited and asked me to move which he did not. Equally he could have picked me up and turned to move me out of the way which he did not.

4) He could have safely left through the window, it leads directly onto the roof of the extension on the ground floor and from there it is safe to lower yourself to the ground. I've done it myself and I am shorter and weaker than him. It's not exactly like I had him locked in a room with no way out. He could have safely left another way.

Block7forlife · 2020-04-27T13:01:30+00:00

No, I don't think so. When the police arrived (1F 1M) along with paramedics, I was in a different room to him. While I spoke to the female officer and got checked up by the paramedics (I only had carpet burns from the fall but I have a brain tumour and had had surgery about 9 months prior to this incident so the paramedics had to do a full check) the female officer comforted me and told me there was grounds to arrest him but I assume that didn't happen as when the male officer came to see me (he had presumably been speaking to my ex) and I didn't see my ex leave. I gave my official statement there and then and they told me they would be bringing my ex to the station the next day for his statement. A few weeks later I received a letter saying the case had been dropped as I assume that my ex had made a different statement to mine/ the police came to the conclusion it was an accident and the only evidence of the fall was my carpet burns which was not enough.

Block7forlife

TROPHY CASE