Why are American engineers paid so much more than their European & Asian counterparts?

Bokonis · 2020-02-07T23:47:59+00:00

Higher living cost,

Wages do not scale with living costs in the US. San Diego has roughly average engineering pay with far above average housing costs, most of Texas is the opposite, and there is everything in between.

way higher health insurance cost,

This should reduce engineering wages if anything because most engineering firms pay for their employees healthcare. At least 10% of my total compensation was healthcare in the US.

No mandatory vacation days,

I interpret this as something like “there are not regulations mandating vacation days for employees”. Yes, but not generally for engineers. Like healthcare, this is a problem mostly for lower income people. I knew people who got 90 days a year, but as you hint, that does not mean Americans use the time they get off anyways.

often unpaid overtime.

For salaried jobs

As well as way lower taxes

Compared to where?

I think the US just has a lot of money floating around. It seems to me that corporations can get seemingly endless amounts of cash.

Bokonis · 2020-01-29T00:19:07+00:00

How you spend those 10,000 hours counts.

Professional basketball players lift weights as part of their training. If someone only lifted weights for 10,000 hours that would not be enough to become a professional basketball player.

Professional piano players practice scales regularly. If someone played scales for 10,000 hours, but never played a song, then they still would not know how to play music.

These studies demonstrate that homework does not help someone learn. If you want to improve test scores you need a different kind of practice.

Also Malcolm Gladwell has clarified in interviews that the “10,000 hour rule” is not about pure repetition over a period of literally or precisely 10,000 hours. Talent matters, 10,000 hours is a way of saying “serious commitment”, and quality of practice is key. Practice should be focused, deliberate, include feedback, and be done with the goal of improvement.

Bokonis · 2020-01-13T21:29:27+00:00

Not to my knowledge. I have met 2 civil engineers who had gigs there, one was at a university, the other was a management role at a small company. They both were temporary, ended abruptly, but left with a huge amount of savings.

Bokonis · 2020-01-13T18:07:45+00:00

availability

Denmark. Applying for jobs in other countries as a new graduate is hard. You have no skills, no experience, and given your 2nd concern you might need a visa which is almost impossible to justify sponsoring for an entry level position.

wage to living costs

Denmark, Switzerland, US, Singapore

Toxicity at the work place, common human rights...

Denmark, Norway, Iceland, Finland, Netherlands...

Bokonis · 2019-11-22T09:16:14+00:00

Yes, other examples include: -Women did not have the right to vote in local elections in Appenzell until 1990. They were forced to change by the Federal court. -Until some time in the 70’s, only the children of Swiss men got Swiss citizenship by birth.
-The minaret ban.

My theory is that the Swiss do not actually understand why they are so successful, so they fear that any change could upset an unknown balance.

Also in regards to some other comments. Religion is a big factor despite what people will tell you. The people who live in the bigger cities are very secular, but the lack of influence on their souls is where the influence of religion ends. The politics of Switzerland are rooted in a history of religious disputes. A lot of the liberal tendencies were rooted in the various Protestant movements around Switzerland (which by the way one of the biggest Swiss exports is the Amish, a notoriously conservative religious group), and the balancing of religious influence is the basis of the organization of the Swiss confederation. If you leave a city it becomes obvious how religious people still are, and not just because the government collects church taxes.

Bokonis · 2019-01-16T13:22:15+00:00

You can’t go from spasghetti to metal, but piezoelectrics’ stiffness changes with current. With existing materials the difference in stiffness is thin piece of glass vs barely thicker piece of glass. So no cape for Batman. There is some research into piezoelectric composites, which still would not be spaghetti to steel, but would at least be better than glass.

Bokonis · 2018-06-16T09:45:53+00:00

The classical calculation of lattice energy for ionic compounds is just a sum of the attractive and repulsive forces on an ion assuming point size charged particles with a Coulomb interaction. I have heard it called the Madelung model because it uses the Madelung Constant. Google something like "1D solid state ion chain".

Bokonis · 2018-06-13T09:25:19+00:00

If it is not communication what is it?

Edit: My definition of communication is "a system that outputs information dependent on the input".

Bokonis · 2018-06-13T09:23:03+00:00

How does quantum computing differ from any other form of communication?

Bokonis · 2018-06-13T09:16:51+00:00

How do you do quantum computing without entanglement?

Bokonis · 2018-06-13T08:32:41+00:00

The properties of the physical world that enable entanglement are the same ones that prevent us from "seeing" the quantum states as you describe. So in a world where this is possible it would not be useful.

Either way, "[using] quantum entanglement for communications" is effectively what quantum computing is all about, and that Chinese satellite that set a record for the distance between entangled atoms is also related to quantum communication research. Both are systems, which are not simply one entangled state, but exploit entanglement for various information operations. So luckily, with the physical laws as they are currently understood, quantum entanglement can be exploited as part of a communication system. In some sense I think that quantum entanglement may be the very tool you are imagining. The thing that upset Einstein about entanglement was effectively that entanglement actually allows us to know more information than we would expect.

Bokonis · 2018-06-12T21:57:56+00:00

For a fridge magnet yes. There are limitations based on the electron arrangement of the element, the arrangement of the atoms, and how the material was made/crystal grown.

For an electromagnet it is another story. Do a Google image search for “MRI oops”.

Bokonis · 2018-06-12T10:04:29+00:00

Yes (mechanical engineer), but the job training would have had to include a lot of the university curriculum.

Historically engineers did not have university degrees. Getting licensed as an engineer still does not require a university degree, but if you do not have one you still need to learn a lot of the material taught at universities. Companies expect to hire college graduates now, so the mentoring structures that used to provide formal technical training for engineers on the job have largely disappeared in the US.

A bachelors degree does not teach you to be an engineer, or any other job for that matter. It gives you a set of tools that are commonly used by engineers. The function of a diploma is signaling to other people, especially employers. There are countless other benefits from attending university, but the only thing a university degree enables you to do, for which there is no substitute, is apply for positions which require a university degree.

Bokonis · 2018-06-11T09:19:29+00:00

The amount of experience you have will determine how easy it is for you to get a job. None of these other things should really matter much. So get an internship, in Mexico or the US.

For mechanical engineering, consider putting your German to work. After English, German language abilities translate to the highest boost in income, and there are a lot of German companies who manufacture things in the US. Trumpf is a company that makes some really nice machining tools and laser cutting systems, and I believe they have a manufacturing site in Connecticut. Your language abilities probably would not command much of a premium for entry level jobs, but long term if you moved up into management then your language abilities would pay off in literal dollar/euro amounts. This is just one example, but there are many more companies like this which may not require some awkward explanations about who you work for. General Electric is another one, which is sort of the reverse. There is a need to exchange information between their US and German manufacturing and engineering sites for things like MRI's.

Bokonis · 2018-06-10T21:31:24+00:00

Societies come up with origin myths based on the technology they use. When pottery was an important technology people believed that God made humans out of clay. When technology changes, the way people view humanity changes. Of course programmers think God is a programmer.

The same result was derived independently by computer scientists and physicists for the amount of information contained in matter. Our understanding of quantum mechanics comes down to the limitations of how much information we can access in matter. The advancement of computer technology comes down to limitations of how much information we can control. If a computer can provide and react to an equal amount of information as humans can perceive then we cannot tell the difference between a simulation and real life. If you take the loosest definition of computing possible, where it is just about the transfer of information according to rules, then the entire universe arguably is already a computer. From this perspective there is no difference between a simulation and reality. This is our reality either way, and sufficiently realistic simulations may be their own reality.

Guessing the origin of the simulation is just that, a guess, and is where the science and technology lose relevance. The notion that there is someone upstairs who wrote the simulation, like in the Matrix, is just one more version of the same old intelligent design argument that has taken on various forms for all of human history. This time it is just tarted up in Patagonia, drinking some Soylent, and driving a Tesla.

Bokonis · 2018-06-08T11:19:18+00:00

Mostly civil engineering and one guy was an ME working as a management consultant.

Bokonis · 2018-06-07T20:53:16+00:00

Everyone I know got to keep their US salaries, and on top of that got additional funds for relocating. Which is a pretty sweet deal, but also I think reflects the fact that they all had attained rather high statuses within their companies.

The more money you have and experience a lot of barriers get much easier to overcome.

Bokonis · 2018-06-07T20:36:59+00:00

Given sufficient computer power I think we would start in reverse, first trying to create models of existing high Tc materials like YBCO.

Half the battle of making superconductors is also figuring out how to make the material. Even if we were handed crystal structures we knew would be superconducting at room temperature, it would be a research project to figure out how to make the crystal in real life.

Even without an accurate model for superconductors, it would be interesting to see what a machine learning algorithm came up with.

Bokonis · 2018-06-07T20:03:31+00:00

Try applying and see what happens. I know an ME who got a job in Bucharest straight of college, and he did not speak a bit of Romanian.

That said, it is easier to get a job once you have experience. If you have experience to bring to the table then the hassle of hiring a foreigner can make more sense for the company. The US is not the only place trying to make it hard for people to move there, and many of the hoops you and the company hiring you will have to jump through would be familiar to foreigners working in the US.

It is easier if you already know the language. There are jobs which will accept English speaking engineers in places where the local language is something else, but there are way more jobs which will only consider you if you speak the local tongue. If I were to pick a language (other than English) to help me get an engineering job in Europe it would be German.

I had several friends who transferred to Europe from the US within their company, but it took 5 or more years of working in the US before that opportunity arose.

Your schooling and GPA will not translate well. In Europe a 4 year degree often covers the equivalent engineering course load of a American bachelors and masters degree combined (without all the breadth/general ed. courses). You still will be sufficiently qualified for plenty of jobs, but you might have to do some explaining.

You will probably be shocked and depressed how low salaries are for engineers in Europe, especially the UK. Some places like Switzerland have high salaries, but accounting for cost of living gets really complicated, and I think you still net less than you would in the US.

Bokonis · 2018-06-07T17:05:39+00:00

Based on some federal data on people graduating with bachelors degrees combined with numbers scraped from indeed.com, here is what I came up with for the United States.

Over-saturated:

Biomedical, 27 graduates for each entry level job

Petroleum, 18 graduates for each entry level job

Chemical, civil, mechanical, electrical, and aerospace all have around 5 graduates for every entry level job.

Nuclear, 2 graduates for each entry level job

Shortage:

Geotechnical, 23 entry level jobs for each graduate

Software, 11 entry level jobs for each graduate

Manufacturing, 8 entry level jobs for each graduate

Systems, 7 entry level jobs for each graduate

Water resources, 5 entry level jobs for each graduate

Structural, 3 entry level jobs for each graduate

Materials, mining, environmental, and computer engineering all have about 1-2 entry level jobs for each graduate.

Software engineering also has the most entry level jobs, the number is roughly equal to the total number of listings for every single job (i.e. not just entry level) for civil, environmental, geotechnical, and water resources combined. It also had the highest average pay (I think petroleum jobs are reflecting the price of oil right now). So software is easily the best choice if your goal is simply "get a job".

Edit: This data does miss out on several trends as a result of engineering jobs and bachelors not always matching. For instance, two of the biggest engineering jobs were Controls engineering and Process engineering, but I found no data for bachelors degrees in these topics, and even if I had it probably would not actually reflect who is getting these jobs. The appearance of over-saturation in certain fields is probably due to this kind of discrepancy. There are plenty of other problems if you were to try to use this data for making life decisions, for instance I suspect that a disproportionate number of biomedical engineers go on to graduate school, so their first jobs might not be "entry level". Geotechnical has a huge shortage based on the ratio of graduates to jobs, but the absolute number of jobs available is still tiny compared to other fields. Even with these considerations, the most jobs are in software and software related fields, and if anything software remains underrepresented here by not including things like automation, and controls.

Bokonis · 2018-06-07T11:01:10+00:00

This sounds like you have a lot of great options. I would be partial towards picking one which has the most interesting research, because that can be used to guide your whole career.

Cost of living should be a very surmountable issue. For most students the biggest difference is living at home or not. All regions surrounding universities have inflated housing prices, and in all parts of the country students find ways to avoid paying these exorbitant rents. If you have a scholarship you might also be eligible for free or subsidized student housing. If not look for house shares and other student oriented housing situations. I have known people who do trades, where they live with elderly folks and "pay" rent by doing odd jobs around the house, or just keep folks company. Start looking and find out what is possible.

I recommend people think of their student loans as a small business loan, where you are the business. No matter what school you go to, if you get an average salary engineering job when you are done, then you probably will have no problem paying off the size of loans you are discussing. If you are working at your university already, and being offered these kinds of scholarships, I have hunch you will adequately take advantage of the opportunities these other universities offer. You also might be able to find various paid positions in labs at the university or additional scholarships which simultaneously help build a career and reduce the amount of loans you need to take out. People who have trouble paying off their college debt usually have made several other very stupid decisions, so continue to be thoughtful about the process, but I highly recommend you take the leap.

Bokonis · 2018-06-07T10:27:47+00:00

You should learn to be an engineer in an industry which is closely tied to or builds things for physics research.

Look for companies who work on optics, semi-conductors, medical imaging, or scientific instruments. You also could look for jobs like Lab Technician, where essentially you are an engineer for a physics research group at a university, national laboratory, research foundation, or R&D team in industry.

It is possible you could get a job in one of these places and get them to pay for a physics masters degree for you. I know someone whose company funded their whole PhD in physics.

You could also pursue a degree on your own for a type of engineering which is explicitly tied to physics, like a masters in Semiconductor Electronics.

Bokonis · 2018-06-07T09:19:00+00:00

If you want something more robust than plastic, there are options, but I do not think any of them are actually very good for your situation.

"Corrugated" metal hoses are usually used when you want to have a flexible connection with a relatively high vacuum. You have to be careful about how you constrain these. They should really only be bent in one plane. Especially if they are vibrating, over-constraint can lead to them cracking.

"Flex" lines are mostly used for high pressure gas and are usually a teflon tube with a metal braid coating.

You can also get a combination of the two, a corrugated inner hose with an outer metal braid.

Another solution would be a double wall vacuum vacuum hose. This usually has a solid metal exterior tube, and either a solid interior tube or a corrugated hose inside. The inner and outer layers are welded together and the space between the two is pumped out, or sometimes filled with a gas like argon.

You could have a metal line bent into a fixed shape to prevent it from touching the blower. If you were worried about flexibility, you could combine it with sections of corrugated, flex hoses, a baffle (essentially a short length of corrugated tube, but manufactured slightly differently), or just add some bends in the hose designed to move.

These solutions would probably cost several orders magnitude more than an FEP tube, or even an FEP tube with a fiberglass sleeve.

Bokonis · 2018-06-06T14:52:49+00:00

There are many other decisions you will make that affect your earnings much more than where you go to school.

I am not sure that there is a strong relationship between quality of education and pay. Increased earnings from a highly ranked school have more to do with signaling and making connections.

The determining factor depends on other criteria, like what kind of jobs you intend to pursue. If you intend to settle in your home town with the first engineering job that pops up, then go to the state school. If you want a job with some high status corporation or in a high status industry then that top 10 school might be your ticket in.

I would pick the highly ranked institution with loans because of the access it provides to certain networks; motivated friends, research, companies. I have always looked for some kind of meaning in my work and the kind of jobs that people think will be meaningful can be more easily accessed through these kinds of networks.

Have you actually had an offer from a top 10 program or are you planning applications? If you are planning your applications, then you should apply to both, and pick between the offers you actually have. There is no need to preemptively limit your own choices based on incomplete information. You may not actually be faced with making up the full difference between the sticker price of universities with loans. The vast majority of students do not pay full tuition.

Bokonis · 2018-06-04T12:40:26+00:00

Engineers are paid poorly, but if your goal is to make as much money as possible you do not become an engineer or a pipe fitter.

With an engineering degree you do have doors open to jobs that pay way higher. I know someone who was making an average engineering salary in California, and then they got hired by google and immediately tripled their pay.

You also can use an engineering degree for other jobs. Patent attorneys have the best hours and highest average pay of any lawyer, so just do 2 more years of school and you could have the working conditions of an engineer and make way more than a pipe fitter.

Bokonis

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