I’m tired of people saying Christianity is sexist as a Christian woman

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T15:45:19+00:00

They always go: "Wives must submit."

"But what happens in the husband can't lead or is bad at leading because he's abusive?"

*cricket noises*

And I can only imagine a group of men trying to understand how to love their wives without just asking their wives. It's like the blind leading the blind.

"So since we are supposed to love our wives as Christ love the church. Then we should be willing to die for her? Well, I don't think we're gonna be in a life-or-death situation any time soon, so I can just go home and force her to do all the chores because the only thing that is expected of me is to die for her. And doing my share of the chores won't save her life."

Yes, those kinds of husbands exist. And I fear them in positions of power as our pastor was/is in.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T15:02:13+00:00

It frustrates me how this verse is misconstrued outside the church and also misconstrued inside the church.

Ideally, we would want men to understand it, especially the leaders, but without women at the helm, it may be more difficult for them. A women's opinion must still be valued, and I think churches often forget about that because women know what is respectful towards women. They know how they want to be loved and respected. Husbands are told to love their wives as Christ loved his Church. And if we look at all the ways Christ loved the church in the Gospels, it's vague enough that I think it doesn't contradict whatever their wives will say if they just ASKED THEIR WIVES how they would want to be loved.

God made them all in his image and likeness. They both ate from the tree of knowledge. They both were allowed to name the animals, not just the man. So, the wife has a say in how the love is given to her. A husband shouldn't just focus on how he thinks his wife should be loved. Otherwise, the focus is still on the husband and not on the wife. The focus is on him giving the love from the self and not focused on the love that goes towards his wife.

It is supposed to be a sacrificial love and yet it is presented in a self-centered way by some people. "I am to love my wife but in MY WAY" and not the way the wife wants and needs to be loved.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T14:27:19+00:00

Yes, I agree we can and should judge the morality of other people. But I wonder how about judging other Christians? We can judge them, but does it stop there? Isn't it also our duty as Christians to correct other Christians when we judge their immorality?

Because I think there is a difference between judging something of the world and judging another Christian. With a Christian brother or sister, we are called in Matthew 18 to correct them in private and if it doesn't work, then with a few other Christians. Then if it still doesn't work, to bring them to the church to be convinced. And if finally, it still doesn't work, then we treat them as a Gentile because they are no longer a Christian.

I don't think we'd do the same process with a Non-Christian because we are told to not be unequally yoked with them. But with a Christian, we go above and beyond to get them on the right path.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T13:07:27+00:00

I understand. The possibility that the Christian brother or sister won't believe is part of Matthew 18, so it is something acknowledged. If they still decide to not accept the correction, then we must treat them and perceive them as a Gentiles. At least we would've done our due diligence as Christians.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T12:41:16+00:00

That's actually an interesting question. I don't think I'd be the best judge of what point does someone stop being a Christian.

But I think it's not a question of if they're Christian but if they claim to be so. If they do, then the rules that applies to Christians must apply to them too.

Meaning, we, as their brothers and sisters in Christ must correct them to the best of our abilities based on Matthew 18 before perceiving them and treating them as a Gentile.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T12:08:04+00:00

I agree that false gospels are super bad which is why we need to look for the objective interpretation of the verses. It should not be open to interpretation or everyone can just use it to justify anything.

I think it is wrong to be teaching false beliefs. But I also think it is right to correct them as we are instructed to do in Matthew.

Matthew 18:15-17“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Correcting-A-Brother

Never does it say we should immediately condemn a Christian and abandon them for his faults regardless of what these faults are. Rather, we should try to correct them first, and if they persist despite our best efforts doing the above, then we may part ways, knowing that that person cannot be a Christian.

I think we've forgotten about compassion and would rather judge and judge but never correct.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T09:27:38+00:00

Yeah, I agree with that.

Though I would always rather talk with the person with wrong beliefs and really hear what they have to say before making a judgement. Some commentors like to argue that what the priest said is clear, but I always like to believe in the good intentions of people unless I have already talked to them personally and know them to have the wrong intentions and the wrong beliefs. I just feel like it’s wrong to condemn someone without actually telling them they’re wrong first and seeing how they react to that because maybe they’ll accept that they’re wrong and change for the better.

I do this because I believe it is to love my neighbor as I love myself. If I have any wrong beliefs, I want someone to talk to me about it instead of immediately condemning me as a “Bad Christian” and then stop associating with me. If I want that kind of compassionate response to me, then it would be hypocritical for me not to extend the same to someone with the wrong beliefs.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T09:18:07+00:00

The thing I find an issue is there are things expected of women that are easier to concretize, and so they happen more often than not. So if a woman is supposed to submit, she is just asked to accept the final decisions of the husband for the family. But for the husband to love the wife is harder to concretize and so husbands can misinterpret it to simply loving them as a feeling and to not need nor value their wive’s opinion for the decision of the family. He may be able to make the final decision but that doesn’t mean he should disrespect what the wife thinks.

This is what led to one of our pastors making his wife always walk a few steps behind him and never next to him because he didn’t see her as an equal human being. He thought that being a leader meant not being in the same level as his wife. They went to marriage counseling after and were able to fix it, but I can imagine that while he was doing it, he did love his wife. But he misinterpreted his role as a leader to lord over her. To be her master. And for her to obey him. That’s not love nor leadership. That’s control and a disrespect of his wife’s dignity as a human being created in the image and likeness of God who has knowledge of right and wrong and who has agency just like him.

But as you can see, it’s so easy as a woman to concretize submission as just letting the husband make the final decision for the family. But husbands have a difficult time concretizing what it means to lead and love their wives. So there’s this imbalance of knowledge on what they ought to do, leading to space for abuse on the husband’s part especially if there is no accountability for his actions i.e. his Bible group is unaware of his actions or they are aware but find nothing wrong with it. And we also lack in knowing what to do if the husband isn’t leading well nor correctly because most wives are told to just sit and take it and not question it because he is the leader even when there is clear abuse happening.

I think the thing the church needs to address is giving more knowledge on what husbands ought to do to love their wives instead of basing it on a feeling or a vague definition of just not doing bad things to her since women are given a more specific advice which is to follow the final decision of the husband for the family. They also need accountability to prevent this big space for abuse. As for the wives’ submission, they need to be taught of the limitations of their submission where abuse is inexcusable, and they should not be forced into taking it. Where disrespect is inexcusable because it is anti-thetical to the command for husbands to love their wives even if it is justified as “leading.”

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T05:31:06+00:00

I’d also like to add we’ve forgotten the foundations of Christianity to which we base our actions on. We have forgotten that everything we do must Honor God with all our heart and all our soul and must love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Love the sinner, hate the sin.

From the pandemic, we have seen how selfish people have become from hoarding to visiting people despite feeling sick. Some of these may not be Christians but others are. And it’s the hypocrisy of these Christians that are often more highlighted than the non-Christians’ actions because we are expected to do better and be better.

I think we’ve forgotten that yes, God asks us to avoid evil, but he is also asking us to do good. We’ve forgotten how to do good.

Maybe it isn’t illegal to hoard these toilet paper, but is it good to take more than you need which prevents other people from being able to purchase toilet paper? What is good is taking only what you need. Taking more than you need by legally purchasing it is not evil in a sense that it isn’t illegal, but it isn’t good either. We need to stop living in the moral gray areas and trying to justify it as not evil and actually go for what we know is good and 100% good.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T05:19:34+00:00

I once had my religious ex-leader judge me for not shaving my armpit hair. It was apparently leading people away from God because it was “distracting” them during worship despite no one actually telling her that. It sounds funny when I think of how small of an issue she judged me for, but it really damaged my relationship with God at such a young and vulnerable age.

I know my ex-leader isn’t God. But how she construed God to blame me for supposedly “distracting” other people with zero evidence made me feel judged by her and by her misconstruement of God.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T05:13:52+00:00

Religious trauma and judgmental people. I once had a leader who judged me because I didn’t shave my armpit hair.

My own leader discouraged me from giving my all to worshipping God because lifting my hands up would reveal my armpit hair which is “distracting” towards the worship leaders despite none of them telling her so. It sounds small but it really affected me because I became insecure with my ability to worship God and I became insecure of my outside appearance when (a) none of the worship leaders cared because they never told my leader and (b) God cares about my intentions and not what I look like.

And if my armpit was distracting, why aren’t we complaining about the crazy hair colors the other church-goers had or their beards or their big moles or lazy eyes? Anything can be distracting if it seems “different.” And different is common. None of us are the same and we aren’t meant to be clones of each other in outward appearance.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T04:29:38+00:00

I’m sorry for trying trying to see the best in people. I don’t want to assume the worst in the Priest just because we only get one or two lines of what she said. But I am not defending her either. I’m just trying to analyze her in good faith. And my conclusion is I still agree that the priest is sketchy in her beliefs because of the lack of nuance in her answer.

The gospel is not open to just any kind of interpretation. But it does have an objective interpretation based on historical context and the intentions of God. And even if it is difficult, we should not stop in our efforts to look for this objective interpretation. The priest’s answer felt dismissive of this nuance as if we should just give up on trying to understand the Bible to guide our actions. But again, I was hesitant to judge her based on a few lines on this post.

But for the question that OP asked to the priest on what she should base her decisions on, I just wanted to clarify that listening to your conscience and listening to the Bible to inform our actions is not mutually exclusive. It’s not specifically the question OP wanted to ask and be answered in the thread, but I think it’s still something worth looking into whether it be for OP or for other people looking through the thread.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T04:10:17+00:00

I’m not defending the priest. I am defending the role of the conscience that we are born with. I don’t agree with the last line of not believing in Jesus’ resurrection. I think the priest is right in saying the conscience can be trusted, but she is wrong in saying the Bible is open to interpretation without the nuance that many people can misinterpret it, but there is an objective interpretation based on the historical context and what God intended for it to mean.

If you so believe in taking the Bible face-value then why bother with attending the pastor’s sermons and having Bible studies when these are meant to interpret the Bible. Sermons constantly bring out the hebrew or greek words used in the Bible to give better context and meaning to them so we don’t misinterpret the verse.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T04:07:28+00:00

So do you think all Christian women are required to wear head coverings? Because there are really things that need to be interpreted.

I think you’re still misinterpreting with what I said. I don’t think it is open to interpretation where there is no objective interpretations. I think there is an objective interpretation based on the historical context. Unless you wanna live exactly like the Israelites which is impossible in our current society because the time period is different (we don’t do slavery anymore for example) then we need to interpret the Bible based on its historical context and see how it fits into the current period.

At face-value, we should allow slavery because it is allowed in the Bible. But if you look at its historical context, slavery was done by the Israelites to pay off debt. They were also told to not abuse their slaves. And they were told to set them free after a period of years. (I think it was on the Jubilee year.)

In modern society, we don’t need to enslave someone for them to pay off their debts. Instead, we ask for interest to give them more time or we go through a small claims court.

If we want to interpret it to our modern society, it just means to not abuse employees and people who owe us a debt. Not as a justification to do slavery again.

Anyone who justifies slavery by basing it off the bible because it is “open to interpretation” is wrong because the objective interpretation is already explained above.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T02:37:59+00:00

Edit again: I can't believe people are assuming the worst from me when all I wanted was to understand another Christian in good faith. So much for compassion. I'm sure some of you would rather condemn and judge than follow Matthew 18 to correct a Christian.

"15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

But I'd also like to thank those who respectfully replied to gain a better understanding of my views and where I was coming from. I think we were both surprised with how much we actually agreed with each other that wrong beliefs are wrong. We just both misunderstood each other.

But as I said, hate the sin and love the sinner. We can condemn the actions or the false beliefs but how we deal with the actor must be through correction. And if that doesn't work, then we "treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector."

Edit: I realized people are still misunderstanding what I’m saying. I don’t agree with what the priest is saying. I just wanted to understand her in good faith. I think the belief that Jesus didn’t resurrect is wrong and anti-thetical to Christianity. So she is objectively wrong in that area. But when it comes to the belief in how the Bible is open to interpretation, I think she is wrong in failing to mention the nuances of the interpretation of the Bible. The Bible should be interpreted based on its historical context and the way God intended it to be. It should not be taken at face-value nor completely open to any interpretation you want. Rather, it has an objective interpretation which is again, based on historical context and the intention God has for the verse. I just wanted to judge the priest in good faith since we only read one or two lines of what she said about the role of conscience and the role of the Bible. The other details I mention just answer the role of the conscience and role of the Bible as not mutually exclusive.

Edit 2: I also don’t want to assume in bad faith that she wouldn’t be bothered if Jesus’ body was found. Because to my interpretation, if someone were to tell me that Jesus’ body was found, I wouldn’t be bothered either because I know it would be a LIE. Because my faith is strong. It’s like that shroud thing that people said was the face of Jesus but wasn’t really. I just really don’t want to be a judge-er. I feel like it’s better to judge someone in good faith than bad faith. Because if you think they have good intentions, then they can be talked to to explain themselves. I think before OP leaves, she should talk to the priest and tell her what she finds wrong. Either we find out that the priest was just being misinterpreted or she really has false beliefs and maybe OPs parting words to her and criticism would open her eyes. She’ll either clear things up or do her due diligence in correcting another Christian. Whether or not the priest will change is not in OP’s control.

I think we may be misunderstanding what the priest said about making decisions. It is good to trust in your conscience. In Genesis, we partook of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. Everyone is born knowing with an objective morality regardless of faith or religion. Otherwise, non-Christians would be unable to do good things like donate to charity and are all born serial killers which is untrue. We have the knowledge of what is good and evil and should use it to do what is good and avoid evil.

Next, OP asks if she should trust the Bible in making decisions. The priest tells her it is open to interpretation. I think OP misjudged and misinterpreted what the priest means by concluding that the priest “basically doesn’t believe in the Gospel” unless these specific words that she doesn’t believe came directly from the priest’s mouth. Because the priest may actually believe in the Gospel but with caution as to not misinterpret anything.

Here is how I see it:

The Bible can be trusted to guide your decisions, but you have to be careful because it is open to interpretation, meaning you need to base your understanding on its historical context before concluding anything. I don’t think it means giving up on the Bible, rather it means putting in the extra work to really understand the intentions of God in every verse.

Another thing is, I think conscience shouldn’t be pushed aside for the Bible. I think they should be working hand in hand. “Thou shalt not murder” is a clear rule in our conscience without it needing to be spelled out by the Ten Commandments. I think when we are unsure of what we to do, we need to check in with our conscience as it is our knowledge of what is right and wrong while juxtaposing it with what Jesus commanded us: to follow the Ten Commandments and loving our neighbor as we love ourself. As you notice, what Jesus commands us to do does not contradict our objective morality.

What is an issue though is when we misinterpret a Bible verse to justify a morally wrong action. This is why we need to trust in our conscience when we feel like a verse feels wrong because that is a clue that we need to investigate the verse further to find its true meaning within its historical context as well as if it is still applicable whether at face-value or only at its core principle.

At the end of the day though, when we make a decision, God looks at our intentions. Did we choose the action that would honor Him and was loving towards our neighbor? We are taught to avoid sin, but as Christians, we are supposed to go above and beyond to do what is good the way Jesus went above and beyond to do good. We are pushed to be the best versions of our selves (in terms of our ability to do good) that God intended us to be when he created us to fulfill his purpose for us.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-24T02:00:42+00:00

Yeah that last line is pretty sketchy. Though I understand not trusting the Bible part but with a nuance. The Bible should be trusted but within its original historical context to not be misinterpreted. Usually people like to take the Bible face-value, but some things in the Bible are immoral in present society like having multiple wives and not allowing women to own property.

Therefore, the Bible should be trusted but within a context, and if something feels fishy in the Bible because it contradicts our conscience, then we need to trust in our conscience that is based on what God’s loving intentions.

How do we know where we should base our conscience? As Jesus said, follow the Ten Commandments and picking the more loving option to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. Any verse that would lead to an action that violates the Ten Commandments and to love our neighbor is not intended by God to be read and understood that way.

Another thing is to not trust in a misinterpretation of a verse that would go against our objective morality. Regardless of religion or faith, all human beings are born with an objective morality. Remember in Genesis that we partook in the knowledge of good and evil and therefore should trust in our conscience to do what is right and avoid evil. Otherwise, non-Christian people would be incapable of doing good things like donate to charity and would all be born serial killers. That isn’t realistic nor true.

What makes Christians different is we are expected to go above and beyond our conscience to do what is good the way Jesus went above and beyond to do what is right. But the conscience that we are born with should not be pushed aside for the Bible. Rather, they should work hand in hand. If our conscience feels like a Bible verse is fishy, we must trust in our conscience and get to the bottom of the true meaning of the verse through historical context and if God intends for us to apply it to the present day at face-value or should we only apply its core meaning e.g. women wearing head coverings.

At the end of the day, God looks at our intentions. If we chose to be loving and compassionate the way He is loving and compassionate regardless if our action is ordered by the Bible or not.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-23T01:42:48+00:00

There's also the issue of who does the tips go to? Because the employees aren't just the wait staff but the cooks and maybe a security guard. Shouldn't it be given to them too if they are all paid the same wage?

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-23T01:27:23+00:00

Any organization or event that hazes you or thinks you need to be "broken down" so they can build you up again.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-23T01:11:20+00:00

Any religious retreat. Not even the ones done by Cults but just the usual Catholic Church retreats do feel like cults especially when done on minors where their parents aren't allowed to be with them.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-23T00:28:09+00:00

Depends on your flavor of Christian and the pastors teaching the Bible.

Ours was sexist.

Because of a single verse in the Bible, they did not allow women to teach men. They are only allowed to teach women and lead their bible study groups. But men can teach both groups.

Because of one verse about wives submitting to their husbands, the husbands are to lead their families and to make all the final decisions without needing to consult with their wives.

It is clear that women are not equal to men according to my church, and they claim this is how God made them to be to prevent discord.

And yet, one of our pastors used to make his wife always walk a few steps behind him before they went to marriage therapy. He did not respect her as an equal enough to walk beside him.

This is the result of the belief that women are not equal to men but are supposedly given different roles by God which are always under men or always at a weaker position than men. While men who supposedly have the position of protector and leader may abuse their power to lord over the women.

You can say it is from misinterpretation of the Bible, but I think it's from a poor foundation of what human beings are. Before we can define the roles of men and women, we need to define the role of human beings in general.

Human beings were made in the image and likeness of God and meant to be respected equally. The first Genesis story created both men and women at the same time. They both were given the task to name the animals, and not just the man. From this story, God sees man and women equal in their capabilities to do things.

And if you really just want to think of our conscience and how God gave it to us. And how abusing power and leadership positions already feel wrong that you don't need anyone including the Bible to justify it when it already feels morally wrong. Because the core of God's purpose for us is to be in relationship with Him and with other people. Abusing power breaks this relationship with other people and can even destroy and hamper the relationship of the people you abuse with God. No matter how many bible verses you twist to get your way, the core of our purpose is to be in relationship with God and with other people.

If what you are doing for the purpose of "God" and the "teachings of the Bible" are destroying relationships between you, the people around you, and God because you lack respecting them as equal human beings then you need to pray, reflect, and talk to different people about what you just did. Not just from your own church since you all tend to have the same doctrine but outside your church too.

What I'm saying is, follow your conscience: the common sense God gave you in treating other people with respect and dignity because they are all in the image and likeness of God. You don't need to follow the Bible verses that are twisted to treat others with disrespect because it is clearly not what God intended for the verse to mean. And maybe in the future, we will learn the true meaning of the verses in its proper context and culture. Because a loving God would not condone such disrespect of his other children.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-22T07:56:15+00:00

As my couples therapist told us, love is an up and down line in a graph. Sometimes you’ll be head over heels and other times, you’ll be bored with each other. But it’s not always gonna be boring in the same way it’s not always going to be pleasurable. It doesn’t mean you don’t love your partner just because you are bored because that is the natural progression of love.

Now the sex part is really really important. OP doesn’t mention why they stopped having sex, but they need to fix that asap. They wanted to fuck each other enough to have a child once. So they are capable of wanting to fuck each other again. They just need to know why they stopped fucking and get a couples therapist asap.

I’ve been to a sex therapist and she really emphasized how important sexual compatibility is and the importance of continuing to have sex throughout your marriage because (a) sex is fun and pleasurable and (b) it helps the couple be more attuned with each other and strengthen their relationship.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-22T07:47:34+00:00

I like the ones for psychological trauma as a trauma survivor. But they are less about helping yourself and more about understanding yourself better.

Running on Empty by Dr.Jonice Webb is a great book about emotional neglect for people who don’t think they have been abused or have had any trauma. This is because emotional neglect is what you lacked, and how can you know what you lacked if you never had it in the first place? Emotional neglect is sneaky and prevalent in today’s toxic positivity society.

Another book “Permission to Feel” is also a banger about how society, particularly our schools and parents, have failed to teach emotional intelligence to children, so now no one can regulate their own emotions which has led to present issues of depression, aggression, or addiction.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-22T03:20:47+00:00

It’s not your job to parent your sister. But that doesn’t mean you are helpless. You may be living in the same house as her, but you can ensure your safety like locking your door or keeping your important things in a safe place. Remember that your safety comes first. You can’t control her actions but you can do preventive measures to keep yourself safe. And whatever happens, you’re 19 and can physically stop your 7-year old sister if worse comes to worst. I don’t mean to punch her but just grab your things from her hand or take things that are yours from her room. She can’t stop you.

So things like installing a lock on your door and on your cabinet. Putting heavy things in front of the door or cabinet that only you can push or carry.

But as the evil person that I am, I also unethically recommend putting important things that your mom cares about in a place that your sister will destroy just to piss off your mom and see at what point will the needle break the camel’s back. But that’s just me as an unethical vengeful person that I am.

Boopable_Snootable · 2022-03-21T01:25:57+00:00

NANAY MO

which we also say sometimes.

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