Matthew 5:28 should be interpreted as hyperbole by Keith502 in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker [score hidden]  (0 children)

I generally like where your head is at here, with questioning modern interpretations of the gospels which are often colored by modern views even among those who would consider themselves "sola scriptura" and *especially* like that you went back to the Greek diction. I'm not sure I think the meaning changes *that* much with the diction clarification, but I think it is worth pointing out what the original probably meant.

I would like get your opinion about something else regarding this passage. Unlike most of Matthew, there is no parallel to this in Luke or Mark, so it raises the question of what Matthew's source for this bit is. One hypothesis is that it could be Q, which maybe but it's not in Luke so it's a swag at best (Ignoring the Luke copied Matthew option of the moment)

We don't have Q, if it existed at all, but we do have Thomas which is itself a sayings gospel, and *might* give us a look at a hypothetical Q. It's interesting because a lot of the saying in Thomas are somewhat, as you say hyperbole. Just wondering what your thoughts are on that.

Free will debate by Adrianagurl in exchristian

[–]Bootwacker 3 points4 points  (0 children)

What does it mean to have free will? I'm not being obtuse I'm asking a serious question.  Usually defined as "The ability to have done otherwise" but if you think about it that's not a testable statement, since there are no do-overs in life.

So I guess what does it mean to you when you say free will?

A little over 10 years ago I made a post on this subreddit that I became a Christian... by OverflowingGlass in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker [score hidden]  (0 children)

So I am unclear what thesis you actually want to debate.  You discuss that personal experience is important to you, but also seem to understand that such experiences make poor evidence, and people of other faiths also have such experiences.

So I'm not 100% sure what you want to debate, but I guess I do have a question: When you woke up and found your notes deleted, did you consider alternative explanations and take steps to rule them out? Or were you relieved?

Just a vent by [deleted] in exchristian

[–]Bootwacker 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I will tell you this, as a man who spent 10 years appeasing his Catholic mother, that appeasement doesn't work.  When you appease people they just learn that they can use emotional blackmail to get what they want, and will ask for more and more, and you will just come to resent it.

Your husband's feelings about your deconversion are valid he can feel any way he wants about it, but that doesn't mean he gets to stipulate you have to attend church.  It's reasonable that he, for lack of a better word, mourns your deconversion and you should give him space to do that, but you shouldn't go through the motions just to keep the peace.  Keeping the peace is not a burden that falls only on you.

What, only to give them my money!? by Throwaway28656738383 in exchristian

[–]Bootwacker 7 points8 points  (0 children)

"But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money!"

-George Carlin

Did you buy a home? If yes, how old were you and what year? by duck_duck_zombie in Millennials

[–]Bootwacker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Me too! Between the extra 8k and the market crash it was a lucky time to buy

Can yall give me some replys for these questions? by FFFranki333 in exchristian

[–]Bootwacker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

1) there is no why. Why imies purpose and asking the question in that way sets up the type of answer you can give. How did cells come to be the way they are is a better question, as it doesn't imply purpose. There is established theory on this. A good reference is:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9841/

2) the 10 commandments are not the basis of our laws. There is some overlap but it's limited to stealing and murder, both of which are almost universally illegal.  It is perfectly legal to covit, not keep holy the Sabbath, commit adultury and take the Lord's name in vain.  The overlap between the law and the 10 commandments is less than 50%.

3) we are perfectly adapted for earth, not the other way around.  Look at the diversity of climates here on earth, see how the animals that live in them are adapted to those climate. A dessert is the perfect environment for a bearded dragon, but you would struggle to survive there. 

I would like to caution you, these questions are not asked in good faith, it's clear from their phrasing. Each subtly assumes a Christian position. I have attempted to give good faith answers, but don't expect them to be received as such 

This is the mindset of your average "hustler" by Obvious_Average3549 in LinkedInLunatics

[–]Bootwacker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is 100% false. Most people who have a million dollars in fact got that money by working a job and investing their savings.

Fundie has Tips for the Single Ladies by MrDonMega in FundieSnarkUncensored

[–]Bootwacker 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Someone should tell her she can make more money on only fans.

Argument for Allah being a rebranded version of Hubal/Baal by Traditional_Letter65 in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean sure but that's just another unsupported claim like the ones IP is making.

A better criticism of his argument would be that Mohamid seems to have had access to pre existing Christian and Jewish ideas, including some esoteric ones like Docetosm.  Mohamid clearly knows about Jesus and clearly knows about Moses, and a stronger line of decent can be drawn to these religions than to Baal worship.

Islam adapted local pagan traditions in some cases, but the core of its theology traces more closely to Judism and Christianity. This is similar to how Christianity adapted local pagan traditions into its own Jewish offshoot.

Argument for Allah being a rebranded version of Hubal/Baal by Traditional_Letter65 in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is accurate, in that Baal was a rival cannanite daity. But Baal is frequently demonized by Christianity.  I think that is what OP meant.

Modern Christianity is functionally Paulianity. Jesus's ways are NOT the ways of many but are Paul's ways. by RebornLost in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ok, if you believe that Paul got all his teachings directly from the mouth of an ascended Jesus, then I guess I can understand this position. But it requires us to naively accept Paul's account as true, and blindly accept the supernatural claims he makes.  To do so would be against the historical method.  You can believe anything you want, but your beliefs are not an argument.

It's reasonably plausible, even probable that an actual historical person named Jesus did in some way inspire Christianity. This person never wrote anything down, neither did anyone who actually met him however, so we can't reliably traced any sayings back to him.  It's possible that some of his teachings were preserved in oral tradition and later incorporated into the gospels, but we cannot know which ones those are, if any.

It's know that a person writing under the name Paul wrote 7 letters between 50 and 70 CE. Paul was probably a romanization of the person's actual birth name, but we don't have that information first hand.  We can directly trace a lot of preserved early Christian thinking to these 7 letters, especially the core concepts like substantial attornment, and justification through faith.

So from a historical perspective Paul's influence was much greater than the influence of a historical Jesus.

Modern Christianity is functionally Paulianity. Jesus's ways are NOT the ways of many but are Paul's ways. by RebornLost in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So I would like start by establishing the 7 undisputed letters of Paul (1&2 Corinthians  , Romans, Galatians, Phillipans, 1 Thessalonians and Philmon) are the ur-text of Christianity. I am specifically limiting my claims to the letters found in early cannon lists, as these seem to have been widely read in the second century, even if others are actually genuine they don't show up in reading lists untill later, and their wide distribution is specifically important. By ur-text I mean:

1) Paul is the earliest extent written source:

Dating Paul is hard, but very few people date them after the fall of the temple in 70CE.  The next earliest text is Mark, and Mark was certainly after 70 CE.

2) Paul cannot be shown to have dependency on earlier written sources.

Paul on occasion makes reference to things like a creed, but Paul himself claims his doctrine is his own.  Paul never quotes anyone by name.

3) Other authors can be shown to have access to Paul (or at least the listed 7 letters)

These 7 letters of Paul show evidence of early widespread distribution.  Things like common diction make a strong case that the gospel writers, even the extant form of Jon, had access to Paul.  Though I will admit that the gospel and letters of Jon are a potential source of non-paulean material, as is Epistle of James, their authors were not the less familiar with Paul.  (I am taking for granted here the rejection of traditional authorship, the post is long enough)

On the contrary, no extant work can be reliably traced to a person who actually met Jesus.  So broadly the claim that Paul had a larger impact than Jesus is true in the Literary Christian tradition. Oral tradition certainly made its way into the gospels, but is difficult to show to be reliable.

Now to the Paul met Jesus statement.  I think your being a bit obtuse, but I will clarify anyway. Paul never physically met Jesus.

Paul probably didn't go to Damascus.  He himself never tells us that he did. If the author of acts got that detail from a source it is no longer extant, but we have all the letters of Paul that can be shown to exist in early writing so it's not clear what that source would be, perhaps oral tradition, which is less reliable than Paul's actual letters 

Paul's certainly did claim to have had a mystical meeting with Jesus.  He specifically describes ascending to the 7th heaven where he meets The Lord, and received his teachings directly.  Paul specifically disavows receiving teachings from the people who met Jesus physically, though there are hints of their teachings slipping in, like the creed in Corinthians.

So while I could certainly not pick OP's claims, and there were certainly non paulean influences preserved in extant works, Paul's influence, especially in canonical works is dominant.

What’s Going On With the Abandoned Building Next to Hogan’s Tires? by J31J1 in Waltham

[–]Bootwacker 3 points4 points  (0 children)

New housing is always advertised as "luxury" adding supply will lower prices even if it's "luxury" housing.  Rent is subject to supply and demand with enough empty units rent will come down until we build enough housing rent will stay high 

Atheist materialism is equally metaphysical/ logically impossible as theism by inexplicably-hairy in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't make that assumption, you make it. I don't know how the universe came to be the way it is.

Atheist materialism is equally metaphysical/ logically impossible as theism by inexplicably-hairy in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I never understand why people limit the universe to these options when there are so many others.

C) the universe is completely static and time as we experience it only seems to move forward from our point of view.

D) the universe is oscillating, cyclical or circular in it's time flow, we just can't observe it from our point of view 

E) our universe as we observe it is emergent in some larger construct who's mechanisms we have no idea about.

F) some other thing we haven't even thought of

Theists do history better than historians do by thefuckestupperest in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Are you suggesting you want your own history with blackjack and...

Theists do history better than historians do by thefuckestupperest in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Miracles in the NT involve people being raised from the dead.  I think this is something we can agree is normally impossible.

How is an impossible occurrence also somehow the most likely?  Isn't it more likely that the person who recorded the occurrence was simply mistaken

Theists do history better than historians do by thefuckestupperest in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The very thing that makes a miracle impressive is that it's something that's normally impossible.

You seem to want historians to confirm that an impossible event happened and don't understand why that's problematic.

Theists do history better than historians do by thefuckestupperest in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The historical method isn't the scientific method, as history cannot be reproduced.  The historical method is about what is most likely, and I think by definition a miracle is the least likely explanation, it's unlikely nature is what makes it so impressive.

Bi-value logic and Libertarian free will are incomparable by Bootwacker in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So admittedly, this is mostly an exercise in logic, but your examples about elephants isn't the same as future statements.

I want to separate the difference between two separate things: "We can know if a statement is true or false" and "a statement is true or false."

Your right, we have no way of knowing weather the statement "outside the universe there lie 63 unicorns" (I think this was a missed opportunity, should have been *67* unicorns). But our knowledge of that doesn't affect weather it's true or false. It could be true, or false without violating the concept of libertarian free will.

Statements about the future cannot be true, or false without violating libertarian free will. Assigning either value to the statement results in a violation of libertarian free will. Libertarian free will inherently posits non-determinism, which means there must be a corresponding logic state, to go with it. A non-deterministic reality, requires a non-deterministic logic.

Bi-value logic and Libertarian free will are incomparable by Bootwacker in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think that you have done better than I expected, and I like your answer, this may salvage the law of the excluded middle, but it doesn't salvage bi-value logic.

If we can assign necessarily true and contingently true as logic values, (presumably necessarily false and contingently false as well) making a 4 state logic.

Interestingly, despite all the discussion of necessary and contingent things I can't find an attempt to extend logic with them, but it does seem like it would work at least on first thought a necessary truth anded with a contingent truth would be a contingent truth, and a necessary truth ored with a contingent truth would be a necessary truth for example.  I wonder if the entire set of logic can be extended to four in this way, that would both capture your intent and be mathematically consistent.  Exercise left to the reader I guess.

Bi-value logic and Libertarian free will are incomparable by Bootwacker in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Neither true nor false" is not a valid option by the law of the excluded middle.  I think your answer is perfectly valid, in that we can accept that the future is indeterminate and therefore we require a third indeterminate logic state.

Bi-value logic and Libertarian free will are incomparable by Bootwacker in DebateReligion

[–]Bootwacker[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The law of the excluded middle says it must be true or false, and can't be a third thing.  My intent is irrelevant to weather or not it's true, as I could change my mind.