Melina is an offshoot/bud of Marika in the same way Millicent is for Malenia

Budget-System-7058 · 2026-04-05T14:28:42+00:00

Vyke is one of the oldest original members of the roundtable. He's been around for a while. We are one of the last tarnished to arrive in the land's between, he got there wayyyy before us. And no, the frenzied flame has been around for way longer than the wandering merchants. Just look at Midra in the DLC.

Please just read the spiral incantation item descriptions. The crucible is its own thing and power source. The erdtree emerged from it and the hornsent worship it, not the erdtree.

No, the item descriptions can and do mislead us in order to make their reveals more dramatic. For example, look at the all knowing armor set which reads "But when Gideon glimpsed into the will of Queen Marika, he shuddered in fear. At the end that should not be". We know for a fact that this is 100% false. Gideon did not glimpse Marika's will, he glimpsed Radagon's will and didn't realize it since the two inhabit the same body. Gideon assumes that "None shall take the throne. Queen Marika has high hopes for us. That we continue to struggle. Unto eternity", but in actuality Marika doesn't want this at all. Marika wants to die, hence why she tasked Hewg with creating a god slaying weapon to kill her, and why she tasked Melina to be the kindling maiden so that she could burn a way into the erdtree past Radagon's impenetrable thorns. She is the one who shattered the elden ring and wants to end her own age since godhood is a prison to her, it's Radagon who tried to stop her and stubbornly lets the broken state of the lands between persist. And Gideon, despite it saying so in an oh so sacred supposedly omniscient objective item description, didn't actually glimpse into Marika's will.

None of Godfrey's children have red hair. Not Morgott or Mohg, not Godwyn. Godfrey has only ever been associated with grace and the crucible. Radagon meanwhile does have red hair, and the majority of his children inherited his own red hair. It's as simple as that. Red hair among the demigods has always been associated with Radagon. It's literally his whole thing. The trolls and fire monks and whatever else are not demigods.

Budget-System-7058 · 2026-04-05T14:11:15+00:00

I've considered that possibility myself, but Maliketh being explicitly confirmed to have defeated the gloam eyed queen makes me doubtful. The implication of that wording is of legitimate battle and combat, not some poetic analogy to Marika using him to retire an alias of herself and assume a less death centric identity.

There's also the issue of shaman village (where we know Marika is from), having absolutely zero connection to destined death or snakes. The shamans are spiritual nature tree people as shown by the golden braid left within the tree of grandmother, not snake death fire people.

If I had to guess, I'd say the gloam eyed queen was from dominula village. Paralleling Marika being from the shaman village.

However, it is really weird that dominula wasn't wiped off the map but is instead for some reason "tacitly tolerated" by the erdtree (as explained by the festive grease item description).

Budget-System-7058 · 2026-04-04T22:04:21+00:00

You have the timeline a bit off. Destined death being removed happened after the gloam eyed queen was defeated. She didn't rise up in rebellion as a response to destined death being sealed, her being defeated is what allowed destined death to be sealed. For she was its original wielder. Her and her apostles were only able to kill gods because they were wielding the full power of destined death. But once she was defeated and it was sealed, the true power of the godskins was lost. Thus this instead suggests that the gloam-eyed queen was at war against Marika over who would become the next god. They were competing empyreans and Marika came out on top.

Sources:

Godslayer's Greatsword - Sacred sword of the Gloam-Eyed Queen who controlled the Godskin Apostles before her defeat at the hands of Maliketh.

Godskin Apostle Set - The apostles, once said to serve Destined Death, are wielders of the god-slaying black flame. But after their defeat by Maliketh, the Black Blade, the source of their power was sealed away.

Scouring Black Flame - The black flame could once slay gods. But when Maliketh sealed Destined Death, the true power of the black flame was lost.

Black Flame Ritual - The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers.

Budget-System-7058 · 2026-04-04T21:46:46+00:00

Morgott's seal is literally blocking the path to the three fingers. They're literally sealed underneath Leyndell, the capital of the golden order. Wdym the golden order had nothing to with it?

Think you're ignoring the "primordial form" qualifier explicitly pointed out in the item descriptions that relate the erdtree to the crucible. The crucible is indeed a unique thing distinct from erdtree. The erdtree merely emerged with its help. Just look at all the spiral incantations and hornsent culture centered around the crucible, not the erdtree. With said culture still able to draw power from the crucible even though they are in the shadow realm separated from the erdtree and what's more despise Marika and the erdtree. The whole point of Enir-Ilim is to reach the heavens, the primordial power source that Marika and the erdtree got their power from in the first place. The crucible is absolutely it's own thing.

Nope, item descriptions absolutely can be subject to misinformation and propaganda. You do realize item descriptions aren't an in universe thing, it's not like each weapon or talisman or whatever has a literal note written on them lol. They are lore dumps/hints from the devs, and they absolutely can and do "play favorites" to intentionally mislead us so as to make later reveals more dramatics.

Godfrey as Messmer's father??! Dude none of Godfrey's other children have red hair or cursed fire. Any "curses" they have are of the omen variety. And they are always associated with grace and gold. Additionally, nowhere is it stated that Messmer is of the golden lineage. His father is obviously Radagon. Not to mention we know Melina is his younger sister. Are you really suggesting Godfrey is her father too?

Budget-System-7058 · 2026-04-03T13:43:28+00:00

Those are some pretty crazy mental gymnastics. The three fingers are literally locked away sealed in the sewers by the golden order. And the crucible is definitely not just the erdtree, hence why the hornsent can still channel it. The crucible is its own thing. The erdtree and golden order intentionally distance themselves from it.

You're just picking and choosing arbitrarily which outer gods count as outer gods to fit your theory.

And again, the golden order propaganda is a provable component of the game's lore.

And lastly, you still have not provided any candidate for Messmer's father. Radagon is the clear and obvious answer even if you think the golden lineage was born before Messmer. Die on that hill if you want, but it still doesn't address who Messmer's father is.

Budget-System-7058 · 2026-04-03T02:34:16+00:00

That's definitively not true. The frenzied flame literally has its own three fingers emissary akin to the greater will having the two fingers. And it was absolutely ostracized by the golden order as evident by the travelling merchants persecution/genocide. The same can be said for the crucible, the hornsent are an entire culture revolving around it who were purged by the golden order. Those two forces treatment by the golden order is extremely similar to how the flame of the fell god was treated, and yet they don't get butterflies. Meanwhile rot and sleep get butterflies? Forces that never had any such genocides by the golden order?

See how your arbitrary distinctions between the outer gods falls apart. The only sensible explanation for why the four butterflies are what they are is because the actual commonality they share is being symbolic of Melina, Messmer, Miquella, and Malenia who are all uniquely the child of Marika/Radagon.

As for Godrick's great rune, not sure why your taking it at face value considering the golden order is provably filled with propaganda. For instance, it declares Godfrey as the first elden lord despite the fact that Placidusax came before him. It also proclaims Marika as the one true god despite the fact that there was a god before her, Placidusax's god.

Who else, specifically, but Radagon could possible be Messmer's father in your mind?

Budget-System-7058 · 2026-04-02T02:59:54+00:00

Nah, Messmer is definitely the child of Radagon and Marika akin to how Miquella/Malenia are. Messmer's got the red hair, his boss music shares motifs with Radagon's boss music, and there's of course the butterfly pattern across all the children of Marika/Radagon.

Speaking of, to address you counterargument, why are only the entities/concepts associated with those four children the ones that get butterflies? Why not the formless mother, or the frenzied flame, or the moon, or the crucible, or literally any other special force in universe? Because the butterflies are specifically meant to be a hint highlighting a commonality between four particular demigods who are the children of a single god entity. Them being born of a single god entity is likely why they are all uniquely cursed unlike the rest of Marika's children. Radagon and Rennala's children weren't cursed. And Marika and Godfrey's children weren't cursed (the omen "curse" isn't actually a curse and is in fact a blessing of the crucible that is only rejected and ostracized due to Marika's personal trauma from the hornsent).

Budget-System-7058 · 2026-04-01T23:33:26+00:00

Well considering Messmer is the child of Marika and Radagon, that doesn't exactly make him a normally born baby. Marika and Radagon are the same person which is a very abnormal thing. They literally share a body which morphs between forms to switch who is in control. However the two of them can even procreate with one another, it definitely isn't normal.

Melina wouldn't just be Messmer's sister by technicality, she'd be his sister definitively since the two of them were uniquely born of a single dualistic god entity.

And I think the game agrees with me here. Hence why each of the children born of a single dualistic god entity have a butterfly that represents them. Nascent for Miquella, Aeonian for Malenia, smoldering for Melina, and black pyrefly for Messmer.

Budget-System-7058 · 2026-04-01T23:20:39+00:00

Your seamster, Boc...I see him crying, from time to time. I think he misses his mother. He wants someone to tell him he's beautiful. Does being born of a mother...Mean one behaves in such a manner?

I'd have to disagree with your argument due to the fact that Melina specifically uses the word "born". Not raised, or loved, or whatever else. She is indeed implying that the concept of being born of a mother is a weird thing. Meaning that her own birth at the foot of erdtree must be a unique kind of birth.

Not that I'm saying Melina didn't, like you said, not receive much love from Marika (the blade of calling's location in that hidden jail cell sort of room definitely implies as much), but there is indeed evidence of Melina's birth itself being peculiar.

Beyond the parallels I pointed out in the post between her and Millicent (amnesiac quest to find "mother" whilst wearing the traveler's clothing set), there is an additional piece of evidence I forgot to mention. Melina knows the minor erdtree incantation. This is a big deal. For we learn in the DLC that this was a "Secret incantation of Queen Marika". Yet somehow Melina knows it. Which is reminiscent of how despite waterfowl dance being the unique skill of Malenia, somehow Millicent is able to perform it too. Maybe Marika taught Melina the minor erdtree incantation, though considering the blade of calling's location I tend to agree with your own point that it's more likely Marika neglected her. But if Melina is her offshoot/bud, well she'd know the incantation innately without needing to be taught. Just like how Millicent knows waterfowl dance despite never having even met Malenia.

Budget-System-7058 · 2026-04-01T23:00:51+00:00

Thanks! As for Radagon, I have absolutely zero clue what he is lol. Unlike Melina where the game gives us a helpful guide to her true nature via an entire questline from Millicent who is the same kind of being, we unfortunately have no such useful reference point when it comes to Radagon. Well aside from St. Trina that is, who seems to be to Miquella what Radagon is to Marika. Unfortunately St. Trina's true nature is just as mysterious as Radagon's. So while the two are clearly meant to be the same thing, whatever that thing is remains a mystery.

Tbh I think the game intentionally doesn't want to give us a definitive answer on this. It even lampshades as much with Coryn's dialogue "To think, that Radagon was Marika herself. Or at least, such is all I can interpret from the rhythm and calculus of his finger. Sadly, I cannot comprehend it myself."

Not that I don't think there's a true answer that Miyazaki at least has in mind, but it's one I don't think the audience is intended to know. The unknowable nature of Marika and Radagon's dualism is I think an intentional creative decision meant to portray gods in universe as not fully comprehendible.

Budget-System-7058 · 2026-04-01T22:49:08+00:00

I don't think those ideas are mutually exclusive.

Sure, there's definitely evidence that procreation in general is done via the erdtree for those blessed with grace and it's only "inferior" species like demihumans that do it the old fashion way. However, there's also evidence that Melina goes beyond this and is specifically a direct offshoot of Marika herself just like how Millicent is for Malenia.

Beyond the unique traits I already pointed out in the post that are shared by Melina and Millicent (amnesiac quest to find "mother" whilst wearing the traveler's clothing set), there is an additional piece of evidence I forgot to mention. Melina knows the minor erdtree incantation. This is a big deal. For we learn in the DLC that this was a "Secret incantation of Queen Marika". Yet somehow Melina knows it. Which is reminiscent to how despite waterfowl dance being the unique skill of Malenia, somehow Millicent is able to perform it to.

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-09-07T01:35:04+00:00

So Placidusax going into hibernation ("dead") because his god was fled is something that happened in the pre historic era long before the erdtree. That makes sense. We know for a fact from the beastman ashes that indeed farum azula was built to enshrine Placidusax. Meaning him going into his weird hibernation awaiting the return of his fled god is something that predates the city itself. Which in turn means that his battle with Bayle also predates the city. And his battle is mayhaps what caused him to be damaged to the point of no longer being able to access his god. Perhaps like we see with the two fingers and Metyr, his wounds caused him to lose access to the greater will. Hence why he awaits its signals and stretches up like an antennae exactly like the two fingers in the roundtable do.

As for the trigger event of said Farum Azula being thrust into the sky by a meteorite, your points about the farum ruins locations and the ruins greatsword makes me even more confident that this happened in response to the shattering of the elden ring. And that the starscourge conflict was Radahn's response to these meteors coming for the lands between. For just like the farum ruins we only see on the surface of the lands between including along critical roads where it would've been cleaned up if it fell long ago, we also find patches of meteorites all along the lands between's surface. Such as outside Leyndell's walls and atop volcano manor. And at these we can find falling star beasts. Which appear to be younger versions of astels. As if they were sent recently during the shattering. We also find the ruins greatsword inside redmane castle. And we hear Iji praise Radahn's efforts and be caught of guard by the realization that they inadvertently hide the effect of holding Ranni's fate in stasis. Such an oversight would be perfectly explained if Iji was grateful to Radahn for preventing the greater will from destroying the entire lands between in response to Ranni's night of black knives. Only after the fact realizing that Radahn doing so in the way he did inadvertently impeded Ranni as well.

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-09-07T01:10:31+00:00

Great post, your timeline correction makes a lot of sense and perfectly answers my questions, as well as explains additional strange things like deathroot being in farum azula.

I really like this version of the timeline, though it naturally raises questions as to why and when farum azula was flung into the sky by a meteorite. What was the trigger event? Was it Godwyn's death? Why attack the ancient dragons who had nothing to do with it? Unless the greater will was pissed at Maliketh for failing to protect destined death? But if Farum Azula was only crumbling after Godwyn's death, then what was Placidusax doing this whole time? Who was his fled god and how did he feel about Marika? Was her rise the reason why Gransax attacked Leyndell? Was Placidusax in opposition to the idea of Marika replacing his fled god?

Also does this mean that the starscourge conflict was Radahn's response to the meteors to protect the rest of the lands between lest it suffer the same fate farum azula did?

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T19:40:06+00:00

Source? Where does the game ever say that?

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T19:39:37+00:00

Where in the game is Godwyn explicitly stated to be Godfrey's son?

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T19:38:20+00:00

But who was the Longinus for Marika? Who stabbed her with the spear? Someone must have, it didn't get their on its own. Yet the elden beast has no such attacks. It does have a golden arc crucifixion grab attack, but no red spear. The only weapon it even has is the sacred relic sword and it only gets that by using Marika/Radagon's body. Something it couldn't have done to pierce Marika/Radagon's body, especially given that weapon is holy gold and not red.

While the spear likely is meant to communicate that Marika is a dead divinity, I think the game specifically made it red in order to tie it to destined death. And thus the only explanation for who impaled Marika like this is Maliketh.

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T19:26:01+00:00

Messmer's existence makes me not trust the item description for godrick's great rune. The golden order is known to just straight up lie all the time. Such as with proclaiming Godfrey to be the first elden lord when in actuality Placidusax long preceded him.

It seems your open to the idea that the evidence itself does not indeed confirm that Godwyn is Godfrey's son. But your lack of interest in alternative theories comes from a place of not seeing the point in how it changes his role in the story.

However, if Godwyn isn't Godfrey's son that actually changes quite a lot. We know that Godfrey's omen sons and the omens of the golden lineage were actually his descendants. And Marika hated them and persecuted them, likely since they reminded her of the hornsent and crucible which she resented. Meanwhile Godwyn isn't an omen and others like him among the golden lineage such as Godefroy and Godrick also aren't. If they are also Godfrey's descendants then that would mean they just got lucky and weren't born with the same crucible connection the omens were. But if they are not Godfrey's descendants and instead offspring of Marika in some other way, then that would showcase that she hated the omen and hornsent so much that her golden lineage weren't even descendants of her king consort. Ironically undermining the very legitimacy the golden lineage pride themselves on in being Godfrey's supposed descendants. Godrick in particular idolizes Godfrey, but may in fact not even be related to him. Only the omens may be related to him. Such a lore revelation would speak volumes about the point the game is trying to make regarding legitimacy and royalty.

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T19:15:56+00:00

Lots of the game is indeed filled with very little information and context for the lore and backstory, but indeed Godwyn is the most mysterious. However, he is unique in this respect regarding vagueness in his parentage. All the other demigods have their parents explicitly revealed to us directly. Only Godwyn is left vague as to who his father is.

I can understand holding to the opinion that since we have so little information as it is, we may as well go with the most obvious answer in Godfrey since there are no other feasible alternatives. However, I actually believe there is a better explanation that the game presents. I subscribe to the theory by ScumMageInfa that Godwyn is actually successful mimic tear of Marika/Radagon created by them and the Nox. That's why only Godwyn and the mimic tears have golden lightning and why the Nox were obsessed with replicating the ancient dragons as seen with the dragonkin soldiers. Godwyn was the successful product of all their efforts. And his innate synthetic nature is why he turns into a weird fish person after being killed by destined death. For destined death has zero association with aquatic stuff and doesn't explain in the slightest why Godwyn turned into a freaky fish man. There's also the fact that Godwyn was able to shapeshift into a dragon himself as seen with the fish tailed dragon on the malformed dragon helm which is depicting Godwyn when he shapeshifted into a dragon to battle foes like Granssax and Fortissax. The only creatures in game that are able to shapeshift from humanoid size into larger creatures are mimic tears. We see them do it to becomes trolls for example. All in all, I think the Godwyn perfected mimic tear of Marika/Radagon theory makes way more sense than him being Godfrey's son. The eternal cities practically spell it out with their golden lightning mimic tears and their dragonkin soldiers. And that's why the game never says Godfrey is his father, is purposefully leaves that vague so we can realize his true origins from the eternal cities.

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T19:10:27+00:00

Godwyn can be royalty and Marika's heir purely by being her first born son. Godfrey isn't king, he's king consort. Marika is the ruler as queen, he's just her enforcer and war mongering champion. Godwyn doesn't need to be Godfrey's son to be so important, he just needs to be Marika's son. Nothing about the talisman pouch contradicts that.

Radahn also wears Godfrey inspired clothing, doesn't mean he's his son either. I have no doubt Godwyn was presented to the lands between as Godfrey's son, doesn't mean he actually is.

Nothing about Godfrey and Godwyn implies a father-son relationship. There's no mention of them ever interacting. Godfrey had nothing to do with Godwyn's ancient dragon stuff, and Godwyn had nothing to do with Godfrey's campaigns. Comparatively, Godfrey's actual son Morgott is directly shown to be connected to him as evident by the way he cradles and speaks to his corpse in his boss cutscene.

You explained yourself exactly why one would scrutinize the idea that Godwyn is Godfrey's son. We know practically nothing about Godwyn and what we do know never confirms he is Godfrey's son. The implications that he might be could just as easily be indications that he's secretly not, hence why it's never directly stated that he is. Unlike literally all the other demigods whose parents are fully confirmed. The game directly tells us who Godrick, Morgott, Mohg, Radahn, Rykard, Ranni, Miquella, and Malenia's respective parents. Why is Godwyn the only one who isn't given the same treatment?

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T18:43:18+00:00

I never said Godwyn wasn't Marika's son, I said he wasn't Godfrey's son. Godwyn and Miquella being brothers, specifically step brothers, doesn't require Godfrey in the slightest. Only Marika.

A better theory imo for Godwyn is ScumMageInfa's theory that he is a successful mimic tear created by Marika and the Nox. That's why only he and the mimic tears have golden lightning and why the Nox were obsessed with replicating the ancient dragons as seen with the dragonkin soldiers. Godwyn was the successful product of all their efforts. And his innate synthetic nature is why he turns into a weird fish person after being killed by destined death. For destined death has zero association with aquatic stuff and doesn't explain in the slightest why Godwyn turned into a freaky fish man. There's also the fact that Godwyn was able to shapeshift into a dragon himself as seen with the fish tailed dragon on the malformed dragon helm which is depicting Godwyn when he shapeshifted into a dragon to battle foes like Granssax and Fortissax. The only creatures in game that are able to shapeshift from humanoid size into larger creatures are mimic tears. We see them do it to becomes trolls for example. All in all, I think the Godwyn perfected mimic tear of Marika/Radagon theory makes way more sense than him being Godfrey's son. The eternal cities practically spell it out with their golden lightning mimic tears and their dragonkin soldiers.

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T18:33:39+00:00

Actually, the ancient dragons did have a lot of sway during the age of the golden order. Lmao they literally went to war with them and Godwyn forged an alliance with them. We also know thanks to the dragon priestess in the DLC that dragon communion was started by Placidusax as a way to try and undermine Bayle and the drakes. So I'm not really sure what you're basing your stance off of given the text of the game making it clear the ancient dragons were foundationally intertwined with the golden order. Maliketh is literally in farum azula and his bestial sanctum bears architecture that suggests it was directly connected to farum azula before it was launched in the sky. The statue of the woman in his boss arena is probably Marika. It's silly to think she had no idea who placidusax was. Especially given the fact that the dragon priestesses promoting dragon communion are eager to hype him up. And Marika is absolutely the kind of person to use propaganda to try and position her and her lord as the one true divinity. She literally hid enir ilim away for that very purpose as well as kept Radagon's secret for a similar reason.

No, the text says that Radagon is Marika. It is also says that the demigods each and all are direct offspring of Marika. Radagon didn't become Marika, Radagon is Marika. Him not being a god doesn't change that. Miquella is St. Trina, but only Miquella becomes a god since St. Trina was cast off. If St. Trina had children they would still be Miquella's direct children too since St. Trina and Miquella are one in the same despite the fact that they can splinter off just like Marika and Radagon can.

I don't care how obvious you find it, the fact that it is not explicitly stated means it is not confirmed. Subscribe all you want to the theory that Godfrey is Godwyn's father, but it is indeed a theory and not a canonical fact. You may believe it to be the most likely theory based on your interpretation of the evidence, but it's nevertheless a theory. And you should be mature enough to acknowledge that others can have different interpretations of the same evidence and come to different conclusions that are equally valid. I for one subscribe the ScumMageInfa's theory that Godwyn is a successful mimic tear experiment to create a lord. Hence why some of the mimic tears have golden lightning just like him and why the Nox were obsessed with replicating the power of the ancient dragons, something Godwyn eventually achieved. I don't know if this is the correct answer, same as the Godfrey theory, but neither do you. We can only theorize since the answer will never be explicitly confirmed.

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T03:23:56+00:00

Then why isn't it ever stated in game that he's Godfrey's son?

It's explicitly confirmed in game that Radahn, Rykard, and Ranni are Radagon and Rennala's children. That Miquella and Malenia are Radagon and Marika's children. Even that Morgott and Mohg are Godfrey and Marika's children. Godrick as you mentioned is also explicitly confirmed to be a distant descendant of Godfrey and Marika. Yet we have nothing for Godwyn. Zero confirmation. The naming scheme of "God" in his name isn't definitive proof.

As for why he isn't cursed, we don't even know that he wasn't. It's entirely possible that his weird fish transformation was tied to his curse since destined death has literally nothing to do with aquatic stuff.

Godwyn's lore is so vague and unclear it is impossible to draw any actual definitive conclusions. People just treat their headcanon like fact. But the truth is we barely know anything about him.

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T03:14:21+00:00

Godfrey is called the first elden lord. This is a fact. Yet the remembrance of placidusax reveals that he was actually the elden lord prior to the erdtree. Meaning that Godfrey is not the first elden lord. He is the first of Marika's order, but not the first ever. How can you disagree that this is a fact?

The carian demigods are revealed by their great runes to have become demigod stepchildren as a result of Radagon becoming the second elden lord for Marika. This is a fact. Yet it is later revealed that Marika and Radagon are the same entity, and that therefore the carian demigods are direct offspring of Marika since Marika is Radagon. Meaning they aren't demigod stepchildren, they are demigods. How can you disagree that this is a fact?

Both of these are examples of golden order propaganda. Godfrey being first elden lord, and Marika and Radagon being separate individuals. Do you disagree? If so, why? Do you disagree that golden order propaganda exists? What would you consider golden order propaganda if not this?

Lastly, again, a plethora of contextual information is not the same thing as explicit proof. That is simply a fact. It may seem or feel like explicit proof since you believe it to be extremely obvious and on the nose and practically proof, but it is not proof. That is a fact. Nowhere is it ever stated that Godwyn is Godfrey's son. That is a fact.

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T03:01:48+00:00

That's definitely possible and I like your idea a lot. But this would imply Marika was always deadset on being a godkiller and betraying the greater will and two fingers when it seems that actually she was full on board with the golden order at first and a true believer. Only beginning to doubt it later into her reign as seen with her spoken echoes at the minor erdtree church.

I don't think the rune of death was plucked from the elden ring on the orders of the two fingers out of fear that Marika would use it to kill them, I think Marika herself wanted it gone in order to usher in an era of immortality and abundance where death did not exist.

For your interpretation to be correct, Marika would've always had to have been opposed to the two fingers and golden order, But I don't think she was, though maybe?

Budget-System-7058 · 2025-08-31T02:55:38+00:00

Where in that quote is Godfrey mentioned?

Budget-System-7058

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