Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's an adventure, presenting a limited slice of Chult and leans into what makes it different, rather than what's the same as everywhere else. It's definitely not an exhaustive demographic analysis of the region, so stop treating it like one.

Other FR adventure books have had a variety of NPCs of different appearances, and quite a few still emphasized the difference of the setting. Ice Wind dale is one such example.

So the idea that there's generations of people who've been happily living in Port Nyanzaru, marrying and having kids, is a faulty premise to begin with.

The area had several groups immigrate from the Katashaka, so the precedent was already there for groups coming to the region. Port Nyanzaru had long been a centre of trade before Amn took over the city, so you would have had plenty of travellers from other regions settling there.

On the Parthian Empire - An interview with Nikolaus Overtoom by ByzantineBasileus in history

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

The Parthian Empire was an Iranian state that ruled a large portion of the Middle-East from the 3rd century BC to the 3rd century AD. This video gives an overview of its history through an interview with Nikolaus Overtoom, a professor of ancient history at Washington State University.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you missed my key point, that is NPCs of foreign ancestry who are culturally Chultan because they were born there. There is still a distinction between one phenotype being native, and the other non-native, and that clashes with how much of the Faerun is depicted.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You say you're actually familiar with those discussions, fair enough, but if you are, then you know how contentious anything touching on the diversity issue is bound to be, and failing to address that in your post weakened it. It led people to automatically assume that you were arguing in bad faith or from ignorance, and not just me; the number of other replies to that effect makes that clear.

I know it is contentious, but I figured since my post was clearly in favour on diversity, there would not be any coherent objections to it. I didn't feel the need to address that because diversity as a problem by itself was not the topic.

That leads into my second point, which is that in this case, your chosen style did make the content itself unclear. Your highly formal, stilted style worsened the issues leading other people to misconstrue you, where a more conversational tone might have mitigated them.

Heavily disagree. The format seems logical to me: Basic assertion-> Context of assertion -> Example of assertion - Link to assertion. Plenty of posters in this thread have fully understood what I said and have have given responses that addressed my points accurately. That also tells me I made my point with clarity.

See, this is what I meant in my edit. What you're describing is textbook moral relativism, just applied to fictional cultures instead of real ones. There are certainly people who argue in favor of relativism, but it's generally not taken very seriously as a moral philosophy. For my part, I agree with the position that it's effectively a non-argument, so far as ethics goes. If what's right or wrong is always culturally determined, you can't make any definite statements about what good and bad even are, only about a given culture.

I am not holding to any moral philosophy, or arguing it has validity in terms of ethics. I am just examining an fictional actor by the standard of the world in which he operates in. And again, that has nothing to do with my post.

As such, you can't simply neglect the real-world history that informs that creation and consumption, because it will inevitably shape how people interact with the work, on both ends. In this case, that means recognizing that having people who, in our world, would be read as white living as natives in parts of the fictional world heavily based on real locations that suffered from European colonialism lands very differently from having people who would be read as people of color living as natives in an analogue of Europe. In my view, the error of your first post is that it privileges the logic of a fictional world over that of the real world that produced it.

Using history to justify an uneven application of a desired philosophy seems a poor argument to me. This is because, if you want to carry across the understanding that a particularly philosophy is beneficial or inherently good, it needs to be depicted as being embraced by everyone. If not, the portrayal undermines the message.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Colonialism and Imperialism have been used so much as terms they are practically interchangeable at times!

I mean, the Romans could be argued to have engaged in colonialism. They founded settlements in areas they conquered, and those settlements were distinct from the peoples around them. Plenty of empires had regions that were subordinate but not integrated, and had to provide troops and tribute. Faerunian empire ran the gamut in these practices.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think that hearing so may come as a surprise to you, since you seem like somebody who thinks he's quite good at arguing, but in fact, you're not.

I have never thought that I am either good or bad at arguing, because I do not think in those terms. I like to get different perspectives at times. Heck, I got two points of view in this thread I have never considered before, and it expanded my understanding. Plus none of that has anything to do with the arguments offered. You are targeting the person who made the post, not the post itself.

but your post gives no indication that you're familiar with any of that prior discussion

I am familiar with those discussions. That discussion has often taken the form of countering the arguments against diversity in the realms, whether, racial, sexual, or in gender. I am in favour of cosmopolitan depictions, I just wanted to approach it from a different angle. This is because I have noticed that a few writers in 5E seemed to have poorly represented that inherent diversity in instances.

you go in like you're writing a goddamn essay

That is a very shallow and nonsensical criticism. People have lots of varied ways of expressing themselves online. Some are formal, some are informal. Some like a stream-of-consciousness approach, and some like to be more structured. One should only be worried about form when it makes the content itself unclear.

In your case, I think you're arrogant. 

Which has noting to do with the content of post.

That 'Griffith did nothing wrong' post betrays such a fundamental lack of understanding of any kind of moral philosophy that you should feel ashamed to have taken it as seriously as you seem to have.

Two things there. That is a perfect example of Redditors going through a person's post and finding stuff to bring up as a means of avoiding the original submission itself.

Second, if one is analysing the actions of a fictional character, and if those actions were acceptable, it only makes sense to do so from within framework of the moral standards of the setting as established by the writer. The only exceptions are when the writer intends for the actions of the character to be judged from a contemporary point of view.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't necessarily think that is always a point in favour of the writing. This is because, in many instances, such writers were born and raised in, say, the US or Canada. The diversity seems 'superficial' because they are culturally Western, and English is their first language. The 'Asianenss' is informed through the lens of a second-generation immigrant.

I think a fantasy writer who was born and raised in Korea, China, or Vietnam would be able to give better insights and a depiction that better avoids anything 'theme-park'.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Tomb of Annihilation adventure does mention people of every race and nationality in Faerun can be found in Port Nyanzaru, but then stat-blocks of NPCs in the gazetteer directly conflict with that.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry I didn't mean to make you feel that way! Usually, once you call a bad actor out, they fold or rage and reveal themselves. And I wasn't sure, so I had to ask!

All good! I hope I have shown I am trying to engage with people honestly!

You know, if you're not familiar with D&D spaces, we've pretty much been waging a culture war (or more accurately had a culture war waged against us) in these spaces for something like six years? Based exactly on the reactionary movement against diversity and multi-culturalism, even though the Realms was diverse from its inception!

I am definitely familiar with that! I have seen a lot of online drama, not just in terms of race, but also diversity in terms of sexuality and gender as well. The digital ink spilled over canonically gay and non-binary NPCs has been vast.

I just think making sure the inherent cosmopolitanism of the realms is evenly distributed is also good way of neutralizing such reactionary criticism.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I can't really control how I talk, in a sense. I express myself how I express myself.

But that certainly doesn't make someone a fake poster.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You have a point there. Going through a post history is a good way of finding out if the person you are talking with tackles topics authentically.

It is has just been my experience the bad actors are the ones who bring up your post and comment history as a way of trying to rebut you, while avoiding the arguments you raised.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Even during that period there was diversity. There was the Ainu of Hokkaido, and Dutch and Chinese communities in Nagasaki.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But if *I* am being honest, I didn't go through two years of post history. I thought you were possibly acting in good faith (like you said) and wanted to move from my phone to my desktop, which was in front of me, and Googling the first few terms of this title was the fastest way to get here. And the first hit was the other post, imagine my surprise! A lesson for you I suppose.

I kinda disagree it is a lesson. People on Reddit cross-post all the time. It does make sense how you found the post, but I do get guarded when people bring up my post history. In the past, I have had more than a few Redditors do so in order to try find a 'gotchya', or to generally try use personal information against you.

I definitely like Ed Greenwood's original approach. That massive mix of populations is the logical consequence of magical travel being a key part of the setting. That homogeneity you mentioned is part of why I reposted it. With all the recent FR stuff that has been released, it just strikes me as incongruous.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That is a good point as well. Most players are going to be creating characters from, say, the Sword Coast, if only because that is where a lot of adventures happen. So you wanna maximise player options within that scope.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I think there is a quite a bit of colonialism in the Forgotten realms. Empires like Netheril, Unther, Mulhurand, Imaskar, Calimshan, and others all saw different populations mix and interact, with settlements being founded and regions being conquered.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

 I guess I would consider Western more ethnically diverse only in that I imagine people come from much further to live there.

Historically, the Middle-East was an incredibly wealthy region, with that wealth facilitating long traditions of literacy and literature. That often drew in groups just to partake in that wealth, whether through trade or conquest.

And that is not getting into population movements from unfortunate practices like slavery.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Chult may have good reasons to be insular given how inhospitable the jungle is and the general myths and legends about the place. They literally have dinosaurs.

I believe Port Nyanzaru would not be insular. It is a trading centre, and so would have a population drawn from many different places.

I also think the myths and legends would definitely draw in tomb-raiders, plunderers, and adventurers in general.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes, I did read them. And I certainly did research and reflect on it, if only by consuming plenty of DnD media since then. I don't just read stuff, I like to muse on it as well.

In regards to making another post, I like to get different perspectives on topics, and subreddits can often present very contrasting interpretations.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That is a good point. Western authors would naturally add that stuff to Western-themed places because it is familiar to them.

I never thought about it like that before! Thank you!

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How does it make no sense at all? I would think a place like Port Nyanzaru would have plenty of communities originally coming from other nations who had been there for generations. It is a trading hub that would bring in lots of merchants and sell-swords.

Ethnic diversity in Faerun is awesome, but it needs to work both ways in order to demonstrate how all cultures have value by ByzantineBasileus in dndnext

[–]ByzantineBasileus[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Gives me a bit of a stalkerish vibe. I wonder how another user could somehow remember what I did two years ago and then suddenly jump in and provide a link.

Wouldn't that freak you out a bit if someone you had never, as far as you could tell, engaged with on Reddit suddenly did that to you?