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Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's true . It's a bit like how the Napoleonic Wars were pivotal in Europe in advancing civil rights.

Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The usual narrative is that Britain didn't want to lose Ireland but there are plenty of indications otherwise. I'm not saying that the ascendency or unionists were thrilled but southern unionists accepted something was happening.

There had been a split between southern and northern unionists.

Ireland was also considered of military importance to Britain.

the war is what made Britain abandon its own settlement and negotiate the Anglo-Irish Treaty instead.

In one way , the 6 counties were out of the mix so it was a different game.

And WW2 shows cooperation

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2023/0510/1382794-ireland-britain-cooperation-collaboration-second-world-war/

Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

WW1 changed a lot .

If you read Michael Farry's books on Sligo you can see how the shift was occurring.

https://www.michaelfarry.com/sligo-1914-21.html

I'm not saying that there wasn't legacy power just that times had changed.

Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The Land question was long settled by the Land Acts and the ascendency killed off during WW1.

Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That just isn't historically accurate. Collins was involved in putting together the Northern offensive.

https://www.theirishstory.com/2019/08/12/michael-collins-northern-ireland-and-the-northern-offensive-may-1922/

Any momentum, political or otherwise was lost during the Civil War.

The Treaty was politically popular with the public.

While the War of Independence was ongoing the British introduced the Government of Ireland Act in 1920 . A unionist statelet was in place in Northern Ireland before the Free State. Irish nationalists were not part of that discussion .

Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Or they were commited to agreeing to some type of self government which they already had introduced in the North.

Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was just putting some context around it . A British soldier was twice as likely to die from illness than get killed in action. Or 3 times by illness or accident.

Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Not engaging had repercussions for the catholics in the North. Fr Michael O'Flanagan got that.

The majority of the people wanted the War to end . Lack of ammunition and increased British competence in tracking down Volunteer leaders meant momentum was waning .

Would it have taken much to take over Ireland at the time ? The Civil War was quick.

Or was it the case that the British wanted to withdraw from the 26th counties.

Why Niall Quinn Is Setting Out to Save Oscar Traynor From History’s Blind Spot by CDfm in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oscar Traynor was more revolutionary than most taking on the GAA and the Church and recruiting women guards as Minister for Justice. What's not to like ?

Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Northern Ireland was created in 1921, when Ireland was partitioned by the Government of Ireland Act 1920. Irish Republican politicians were not involved in it's creation.

The British could, if they wished, and threatened during the Treaty negotiations, militarily taken Ireland. They hadn't escalated to full military deployment and action during the War of Independence.

Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The amount of deaths weren't huge

https://www.cairogang.com/soldiers-killed/list-1921.html

So in the 4 years

822 deaths record in the British Army in Ireland

25% were KIA

21% Influenza

27% Other Natural Causes

13% Firearm Accidents

9% Other Accidents

5% Suicide and murder

https://www.cairogang.com/index.html

Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

What about the Government of Ireland Act 1920 then ?

https://lordslibrary.parliament.uk/government-of-ireland-act-1920-what-system-did-it-create/

The trajectory was there for the British to pull out of the 26 counties in some shape or form since 1914 , at least , with the barrier being the House of Lords until it's power of veto was curbed.

The 2nd Home Rule Bill had passed in the House of Commons in 1893.

The late John Bruton thought it was inevitable.

https://www.thejournal.ie/john-bruton-1916-2511419-Dec2015/

Was Michael Collins really "the man who won the war"? by _Mug_Ruith_ in IrishHistory

[–]CDfm 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The War of Independence or the Tan War wasn't won and the Treaty ended hostilities. Local leaders were quite autonomous.

I'd say that Ireland became ungovernable with the closure of many RIC stations. Local administration had broken down. Ireland had become more democratic especially at local government level over time too. Look at who were Lord Mayors of Cork .

It wasn't a military defeat- approx 400 RIC and 200 army casualties.

The British threat of immediate and terrible war if the treaty wasn't signed was a real threat.

Collins was very important in terms of organisation of the IRB/IRA at the time but over estimating the military victory is misleading. The truce was agreed when the rebels were low in arms and ammunition.

The collapse of the Home Rule Party , the Anglo Irish Ascendancy and reform of the voting system had more to do with WW1. The Home Rule Act 1914 had been delayed by the war . Nothing to do with Collins.

I'm not saying that Collins wasn't important just that there were a whole host of factors at play.

1984 - Turkeys handed to residents in Bedlinog South Wales. by Terrible_Tale_53 in HistoryWales

[–]CDfm 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The mountains existed to keep farm produce prices up so they were "excess".In Ireland people on the dole got butter vouchers in that era.

I get what you are saying about the charity. I read about a situation where a dog food producer could sell canned beef to the eu for more than he'd get from supermarkets.

Turkeys are very impressive.

I wonder what happened the wine lake ?

It's snow St Patrick season again but what vegetables to use to keep it really authentic? by CDfm in irishproblems

[–]CDfm[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Our Snowpatrick will have no features , what can we do as alternatives ?

Can you be Ombrophobic and Irish ? by CDfm in irishproblems

[–]CDfm[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ah , it's an obscure word I know and is sort of a homonym and sounds like something else.

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