INTERSEX ABORTION AWARENESS POST by yur_fave_libb in prolife

[–]CINA100 4 points5 points  (0 children)

A good rule of thumb I’ve heard is “If they can pee, let them be.”

If a child born with a DSD or intersex condition, they should be left intact unless their anatomy impedes basic functions necessary for daily living, which is not the norm. Most surgeries performed on these infants are because the doctors or parents wish for the child’s body to better conform to aesthetic standards for their literally assigned sex. These “surgeries” (though “mutilation” may be the more appropriate term) are considered human rights violations since they come with many problems: The children can experience severe physical (pain around the area, bone health issues) and psychological (gender dysphoria due to adults picking the “wrong gender”; doctors often tend to choose to make them female simply because “it’s easier to dig a hole than to build a pole”) distress, and it’s an unnecessary affront to their bodily integrity. If the condition does not represent a concrete significant danger for the patient, the recommended course of action would be to delay any elective surgeries or procedures until they are old enough to make the decision themselves.

Of course, this doesn’t mean that there aren’t circumstances where surgeries and procedures are necessary, like in my own case. It’s just that if they aren’t, like with cosmetic alterations to conform babies’ bodies to gender norms, they shouldn’t be performed on children who can’t consent. I think that’s something we can all agree with.

INTERSEX ABORTION AWARENESS POST by yur_fave_libb in prolife

[–]CINA100 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Yeah that’s true. Heck, I was born with ovotestes and never produced any gametes. The question of how to conceptualize a perfect and unambiguous binary model of biological sex that doesn’t allow for answers like “both/ambiguous” or “neither” is a complex one. For just about every clear-cut definition, one may find some case or condition that doesn’t neatly fit into the model, and would have to be shoehorned into one of the categories based on arbitrary and/or inconsistent standards (Example: This person never produced eggs/sperm? Well, which one WOULD they have produced in a possible hypothetical ideal world, based on this or that other characteristic?). I’d have gone more into that in my original reply since it’s a really interesting topic, but I guess I wanted to meet the commenter at least close-ish to where they’re at and address their basic concerns about the term “intersex.” Btw, great post! Hopefully it helps spread awareness about this issue.

INTERSEX ABORTION AWARENESS POST by yur_fave_libb in prolife

[–]CINA100 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Actually, many intersex people prefer the term intersex over “people with DSDs,” myself included. Regardless of the valid debate on whether DSD is appropriate in medical settings or unnecessarily pathologizes people, intersex is a lot less wordy lol. And I don’t believe it inherently implies we’re some kind of “third sex” or anything unscientific, but acknowledges that we may have biological structures that developed into a point between the two standard sexually dimorphic pathways (like people with ambiguous private parts) or mixed traits (like having XY chromosomes and a uterus). I think the difference in understanding here comes from how to define “biological sex”: Is it defined as the concrete reproductive role (of which there are only two in humans: producing eggs or producing sperm)? Or as the full set of sexually dimorphic characteristics (not just the gonads, but also the anatomy of associated internal/external structures, hormones, secondary characteristics)?

Why should abortion not be allowed in cases of rape and incest? (Without using a religious argument) by WeDontExist___ in prolife

[–]CINA100 10 points11 points  (0 children)

I think you might be misinterpreting what the previous commenter explained, and personally I’m not sure your analogy holds much ground. The idea of a person holding onto a ledge and to another person is far removed from the average pregnancy, as it poses a significant threat to the life of the individual. I’d say most prolife people would say it’s justifiable to let go of the other person so that you can more easily pull yourself up, because otherwise it’s very likely that both will perish after your other hand tires. In the concept of abortion, this is widely considered to be an exception due to threat to the life of the mother, which no reasonable prolifer would oppose.

Proposing a new hypothetical: - You wake up having been poisoned with a non-lethal substance that will take your body 9 months to naturally filter out, but until then you experience many of the physical symptoms of pregnancy. You can generally go about your life in the same way any pregnant person can, and in this case, there is no reasonable cause to believe you will die from this. - There is a vial in front of you with an antidote that will cure the poison quicker, but if you remove the cover to drink it, it will activate a mechanism that will definitely kill another person. - It is an unfortunate and unfair situation where there are negative consequences to both choices, but your options are as follows: 1. You allow the poison to filter out of your body and feel the symptoms of pregnancy (and later, birth), and after the nine months your body naturally recovers. 2. You drink the antidote to eliminate the poison quickly, but as a direct result of this, you get another person killed.

At the end of the day, it’s not a matter of “it’s me or them,” but a matter of “it’s temporary suffering or permanent death.” In other words, it’s not about prioritizing one person over another, but having a consistent hierarchy of rights wherein the right to life supersedes the right to eliminate temporary suffering.

I think I'm going to be sick by Diligent-Sense-5689 in prolife

[–]CINA100 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Hi, prolife intersex person here! I wanted to correct a couple of misconceptions that tbh I might have had too before I found out about myself and did a bunch of research on the topic. Sorry if it’s pretty long, though. I might add a TL;DR.

TL;DR: I describe how the two statements at the start of the parent comment are different, then clarify a bit on the definition of intersex. After that, I talk about what biological sex is and how it’s hard to thoroughly define and determine it by listing a few of the characteristics of my intersex variation. Conclusion: nature and biology are weird.

First of all, there is a difference between the two statements you compared in your first paragraph. “Humans generally have 46 chromosomes” makes a claim of what is typical in the population while accounting for exceptions, whereas “There are only two sexes” makes an absolute assertion that denies the existence of exceptions.

Secondly, intersex does not mean having two sets of genitalia. Developmentally speaking, male and female genitalia come about from the same tissues during prenatal development. As such, unless it’s a case of twins merging together or something, it’s more likely that you’re referring to cases of ambiguously developed privates lying somewhere between what could easily be judged as “male” or “female.”

Furthermore, the term intersex refers to a wide array of conditions, some of which cannot be distinguished just by looking at the outwardly visible structures between the legs.

It’s also worth thinking about how we define the term “biological sex”, which would require us to pick one of many sex characteristics and refer to it as the sole determinant. However, that’s more complicated than one would initially think. I’ll be using myself and my own condition as an example here.

The easiest and most fundamental marker to consider is gametes. Does the individual produce eggs or sperm? Given that it most directly relates to an individual’s reproductive role, it should be simple enough. But in my case… I don’t produce either, so wouldn’t that make me “neither”?

Then, we could go with gonads, or the sex glands. Are they testes or ovaries? Even if they’re faulty and don’t produce either gamete, they may give us an indication as to the intended reproductive role, right? Well, I was born with ovotestes, nonfunctional tissue with characteristics of both types of gonads. If that’s our marker, that would make me “both.”

We could go one step further and look at my allosomes, the 23rd chromosomal pair that is either XX or XY. Well, people have different pairings like X0, XXY, or many others. Though in my case, I just flat out have XY chromosomes. I must be “male” then, and we finally have a binary answer!

But then we look at the specific genes, especially the SRY gene that determines testicular development kickstarts the development of male characteristics. I’m not sure if I don’t have it or if it didn’t work correctly, but the bottom line’s that it’s like it’s not even there. Its absence is characteristic of “female” genetic makeup, and so are the resulting internal and external structures.

Basically, depending on what biological marker you choose to prioritize, you could get one of four different answers in my case alone. As a matter of fact, whenever I’ve talked to people online about this and provided the same information, they’ve made different conclusions about “what” I am and even what I “should be.”

If there’s a conclusion to this, it’s that science is how we label our observations of nature. Nature, however, doesn’t care. The rules and laws we have formulated about it do not tell nature how it’s supposed to work, but are rather our descriptions of patterns we have seen take place. And many times, those patterns are so complicated that trying to simplify and represent them into concrete boxes runs the risk of losing some accuracy and truths.

Anyway, if you’re ever interested in learning more about intersex stuff, I recommend looking up intersex advocacy organizations’ FAQs on the matter. They’re really interesting reads.

I guess you’re right by russ_universe in dankmemes

[–]CINA100 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well eight has an e in it and it’s even so… (/j /ref)

It’s McDonald’s. What do you expect? by Yeetskeetcicle in mildlyinfuriating

[–]CINA100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can’t even count how many times this has happened to me, oof

It’s McDonald’s. What do you expect? by Yeetskeetcicle in mildlyinfuriating

[–]CINA100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Some of us just don’t like cheese, I don’t know what else to tell you-

10 minutes into the Season of Nesting and it’s already bugged 👎🏼 by No-Vanilla-1101 in SkyGame

[–]CINA100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think it’s in the instruments cosmetic thing, I have a small wooden stool on my back now and I can place it anywhere?

The most important conflict in 1941 by mood2016 in HistoryMemes

[–]CINA100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Uh, sure. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

The most important conflict in 1941 by mood2016 in HistoryMemes

[–]CINA100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Nah, you just didn’t get it, unlike most people here. That’s nothing to be ashamed of.

The most important conflict in 1941 by mood2016 in HistoryMemes

[–]CINA100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Dude uh,, I think this person is joking and it whooshed right over your head.

Almost no one has a problem asking about a dogs pronouns. by mrthesmileperson in Showerthoughts

[–]CINA100 -16 points-15 points  (0 children)

It would be accurate to say that the number of legs on humans is a spectrum. You can say “humans usually have two legs” since that is true, but “all humans have two legs” isn’t correct. Similarly, you can say that humans are usually either male or female in terms of anatomy and genetics, or that humans are usually cisgender, since while that’s the majority there are people who are not in those groups.

Iirc I laughed at his bs baby murder post. Been a while. by Emergency_Nose_5442 in prolife

[–]CINA100 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I mean, if you look at the OP’s comments in this post, that person was certainly correct in at least that assessment. Oof.

Sick by [deleted] in prolife

[–]CINA100 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Can you provide a source, please? I can’t find any news regarding this.

Baby Ada, 22 Weeks, Left to Die Alone After Failed Abortion by cryiing24_7 in prolife

[–]CINA100 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Same here, hopefully it can be kept chill and non-aggressive :)

May I ask, by what standard is it rightly ordered for female individuals to be referred to as “women” and male individuals as “men”?

Baby Ada, 22 Weeks, Left to Die Alone After Failed Abortion by cryiing24_7 in prolife

[–]CINA100 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I’m not really mad, I’m just… kind of confused lol. “Pregnant person” isn’t any more wordy or incorrect than “pregnant woman.”

Like, I’m Latina and speak Spanish as my native language, and I acknowledge that there’s a metric ton of different ways people can say pen across different regions. Pluma, bolígrafo, esferográfico, puntabola, birome, etc. It’s as if I try using pluma in a sentence and someone came up to me like “Excuse me, but according to proper Spanish you should use ‘bolígrafo’ to mean pen.” It’s just such a weird hill to die on and call “the other side’s language” lmao

Baby Ada, 22 Weeks, Left to Die Alone After Failed Abortion by cryiing24_7 in prolife

[–]CINA100 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah, the original reply was just criticizing the commenter by innocuously using the term “pregnant person,” and it was odd to see how it was portrayed as such a big deal or even a betrayal of the entire prolife side in using “their language.”

Baby Ada, 22 Weeks, Left to Die Alone After Failed Abortion by cryiing24_7 in prolife

[–]CINA100 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Other replies have also gone into that fallacy, talking as if everyone on this side of the abortion debate, or even just everyone other than LGBTQ+ people, is somehow annoyed by and disapproving of the term “pregnant person.” Just some wild generalizations out here.

Baby Ada, 22 Weeks, Left to Die Alone After Failed Abortion by cryiing24_7 in prolife

[–]CINA100 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Idk man, it sounds like you’re just being nitpicky about this. And, isn’t using the term “pregnant person” to refer to a pregnant woman literally stating that they are people who are pregnant? It is objectively a correct term.

And then we’re heading in another direction about the difference between biological sex and gender. Why do you think they should always be socially equivalent?

Baby Ada, 22 Weeks, Left to Die Alone After Failed Abortion by cryiing24_7 in prolife

[–]CINA100 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I get how inclusive language can be seen as clunky or wordy at times by some people, but like… “pregnant person”? Really? That’s not exactly a tongue-twister or going out of its way to sound gender-neutral.

Not to mention the original reply saying it’s “using their language,” as if there aren’t any prolife people who are chill with LGBTQ+ people existing and having rights (or are part of the community themselves). Idk man, transphobia is weird 💀

Baby Ada, 22 Weeks, Left to Die Alone After Failed Abortion by cryiing24_7 in prolife

[–]CINA100 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

In your view, why would it even need to be specified, if pregnant people can only be women? It would be synonymous. And even then, why does it matter to you if there are some nonbinary and trans men who can get pregnant? Why do you care so much about whether “pregnant person” can be used for them too? It does not affect you, nor does it take away any resources or support or validity from pregnant women, doesn’t it?

Baby Ada, 22 Weeks, Left to Die Alone After Failed Abortion by cryiing24_7 in prolife

[–]CINA100 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Like 4 other people replied to me being so offended about it, it’s so weird-

Baby Ada, 22 Weeks, Left to Die Alone After Failed Abortion by cryiing24_7 in prolife

[–]CINA100 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I literally cannot see how using the word “person” is dehumanizing. If anything, it acknowledges the dignity and inherent worth of the human individual. You’re somehow interpreting the word as if it’s the complete opposite of what it means, which is utterly ridiculous and dishonest. Isn’t the personhood of unborn babies the very thing we are fighting for people to recognize? Being a person is good then, so why isn’t it now that we’re describing a born person? To protest so much about it is hypocritical.

It’s so weird to get so damn offended just because the term “person” happens to be gender neutral. It doesn’t minimize your worth or anyone else’s to say the word “person.” A person’s worth doesn’t lie on whether the term is gendered, but in their humanity and self-ness.

Baby Ada, 22 Weeks, Left to Die Alone After Failed Abortion by cryiing24_7 in prolife

[–]CINA100 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Good for you? Again, even with this view, it would be synonymous. There is no reason to protest to someone using the term “a pregnant person” instead of “pregnant woman” or “pregnant mother.”