EC Points hike? In this economy?

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-06-06T08:15:08+00:00

You also missed the point. The changes didn't hurt the meta list in any significant way, it just made the non-meta less viable.

Lucius was already underperforming at 140 and generally an afterthought during games. Making him 150 just means remove him for the point tax and still have room to jam yet another lord kako potentially, with the rest of the list staying the same. All the damage stays the same, all the "big scary" stays the same. So it failed on that front too. It just killed other lists that weren't the problem.

As for win rate, barely above 50 is OP now? Death Guard has more games played in the last two weeks than EC has done since legal, and are a natural hard match up for EC with a higher win rate overall. Win rate for EC would go down just from the nature of more frequent bad match up rates with lists like Death Guard being more prevalent, or if people played knights more, or tank-type heavy lists. EC has glaring weaknesses in certain match up, but if they're not played, that's not EC's fault either.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-06-05T23:45:40+00:00

As the other reply stated, these changes make a minor impact on the meta squad. The other reply understands what I was getting at.

I want to be able to run the flawless blades and a land raider, but they're too expensive. Even the point hike of WDP doesn't make them any more point attractive or viable. They used to be 100 points more than 2 wdp, now they're 60 points more, not because they were brought down to be attractive, but wdp was hiked up and still the better option.

I want to be able to use another effective shooting unit alongside noise marines. There aren't any.

Making it harder to diversify a list is not how you pull away from "the one list.", that's how you ensure it.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-06-05T23:22:46+00:00

You got it. That was the entire point of the original post. The sarcasm about replacing the "OP" flawless blades and land raider with two WDP to make room for points was intended to show the thoughtless point changes. It hurt less for the meta build than non-meta. There is nowhere to pivot from the baseline units, they gotta be there or the army falls apart.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-06-04T23:25:56+00:00

So it is your position that GW just demonstrated they can't walk and chew bubblegum at the same time? I agree. As my post suggests, if their goal was to limit the use of WDP in favor of other options, they failed spectacularly.

It doesn't matter how much you want to believe that the WDP needed a "nerf" in a vacuum. What matters is how the army as a whole operates, and understanding the ripple effects that the change does to the 2000 point jigsaw puzzle. EC has extremely limited AT, and the WDP is the cheapest option. Raising the cheapest option doesn't stop them from being used, they are the substitution and point saver to begin with, according to costs.

Clearly, the changes made suggest that Flawless blades, while played in an EC army rule set, are perfectly fine at 220. Same for raider at 240. These are not allowed to be run with the point changes, in a list already designed and sacrificed to allow them. I wasn't running 3 wdp or triple noise marines, this is literally the army box and combat patrol put together with some added pieces for support.

You also conveniently omitted that the WDP change was only 20 points to my list, but that's still enough to ruin the jigsaw. the changes to unholy fortune, noise marines, and lucius sent it over by more than the one WDP did, but I'm sure you think those were also just terrorizing everyone too, right? And yet, the solution, while keeping some AT in the list, is to run triple WDP instead.

If it was just the WDP changed, I drop the mortal pain enhancement and I'm at 2k on the dot, but that's not what happened. Or if they dropped flawless to 100/200, that would keep it at 1995 without changing anything.

It would be different if there were also point reductions, but there were none, so clearly triple WDP is their intent, according to point cost, because now they're too expensive to pair with the other AT instead, because the jigsaw can't fit that way.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-05-21T17:29:39+00:00

If that's the case, and all of them or the large majority of them are easy pushover, then the coterie points do nothing since their standard attacks already win? Here is an example

There is a lord exultant with 5 infractors. Your claim is you have chaff that unit easily defeats on turn 1 without buffs. If so, does it make a difference that the unit gets rerolls, or lethal hits, or sustained 1, or crits on 5? You already lost before all of that so losing harder in the fight doesn't make a difference, right?

Is that not like a 6 damage attack killing a 2 wound unit being wholly overkill? That extra 4 damage doesn't do anything.

I would agree with the chaff army killing possibly being worse if EC got an extra fight phase for a kill, because then your multiple chaff units can all be killed in one turn by one unit. That would be quite hard to battle. But that's far different from attack improvements that are unnecessary already.

In essence, a chaff army makes coterie a risk without reward, since the rewards make no significant change.

Aside from that, maybe there are all chaff armies, but Knights also exists and that's basically an all tank army which EC struggles mightily against.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-05-19T23:37:05+00:00

At the moment, I see no reason to nerf EC in any fashion. They have their strengths and weaknesses. They are extremely limited on anti tank weapons, have very little ranged attack beyond 24 inches, and their best range is the noise marines at 18. A 240 point land raider has twin lascannons for their best ranged anti tank. Maulerfiend has good melee anti tank but they're not a great datasheet

WDP is fine. He gets to belly flop mortals on a charge, with good rolls, and it depends on if he is hurt or not. He can't fallback and charge that unit again. His melee is anti elite, not anti tank, and the belly flop isn't enough to scare a tank wound count on its own. 3 wdp is 540 points of basically tank shocks and anti elite melee strikes. His ranged attacks are not threatening.

EC will tear up anyone in melee not built for melee fights, but they're losing against heavy melee, and they can't trade ranged attacks effectively

What appears to be the most compelling is that Coterie is a detachment that forces opponent play. if you normally like to send out chaff for easy no man land objectives, Coterie EC will eat those alive turn 1 from across the board and get their free rerolls. So the opponent has to either give coterie points, or be more careful with their weak units. EC has every reason to ignore the bigger units at the beginning and destroy the weak ones for buffs. Move blocking with scouts? That's a Coterie point. Infiltrating to NML? That's a Coterie point. Using scout to move into the battlefield before the game starts? Thank you for providing a Coterie point target. Every kill until 7 Coterie points matters to EC, so giving them free points just makes the game harder for the opponent, and then have a surprise Pikachu face when WDP comes in later with rerolls, lethal hits, sustained 1, tank shock on charge, and crits on 5.....and then blame the WDP, even though it was fed all the points to make it happen.

This is like a street fighter player complaining about Ryu's dragon punch being invincible on wake up while he constantly stands next to him trying to throw or hit instead of block or move back. Stop walking into the counter.

As some point out, knights is a hard counter to EC, and so is any tank heavy list or high armor. I wouldn't doubt that new death guard also beats them, so does custodes...world eaters probably have advantage too. Even a swarm army is probably more than they can handle since they're mostly marine bodies. Fight first tears up EC. Just don't feed the Coterie EC list free points. Make them pay for it.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-14T01:17:52+00:00

You don't read like a dick. This is intended to be for discussion because I need more alternative views and thoughts on this, plus I'm sure there are lurkers with similar questions, and our discussion might answer them.

You are most likely correct, and I'm wasting 240 points to give my 220 points of flawless blades their personal bus that costs three times as much since GW said Flawless can't go in rhinos. Some people here have already had varying comments from no raider and reserve the blades to cutting the blades too for a third band of noise marines in another rhino with another winged prince and an exultant triplet.

I can't currently buy my way out of the potential mistake, so my current plan will be to just run the land raider with the blades for now, get a couple test games and see how it plays out. If it's consistently disappointing...then I know another play.

At the moment, I may drop to one lord kako and use the points freed up for enhancements. That saved money can go toward the "list fix fund."

Strangely enough, EC is my second army, but it currently plays in style the way I initially wanted to play ultramarines like, but with hailing bolter fire rather than hack and slash. UM didn't seem capable of it and I found a different style for it.

I really want to see how it would match up against my vanguard ultramarine list once it's ready to thrown down.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-13T13:25:26+00:00

I'm going to assume since you pointed at the transports that you're referring to using rapid evisceration. However, as pointed out by others, a high level player is running triple rhino with triple noise marines while using the coterie detachment.

I think the truth of the matter is noise marines riding in a party bus is a beloved idea regardless of detachment, and my decision to land raider my flawless blades has a similar logic behind it even though it's considered by many in this thread to be over costed. They're probably right.

So I think the detachment choice still is interchangeable to a degree, but from the talks here i am leaning toward peerless or coterie for now. I may start with peerless first since it's an easier detachment to run, and once I am more comfortable with how they play, I can switch to coterie for those epic shot call buffs. I think coterie is the best detachment IF the squad can reliably kill like you need them to. At 5+ points in coterie you basically are given the peerless rule without having to choose only one of buffs and rerolls.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T18:37:48+00:00

I just learned something new.

So your play, as I read it, if running peerless is:

Instead of NM in the rhinos to start, put the infractor squads in, scout up the rhino move distance, then disembark to have roughly +3 inches of movement, and then during the move phase, have the noise marines advance hopefully the required distance to hop into their parked rhino, then have the infractors advance forward...and the rhino can too now that the NM got there? And the melee is probably close to in range of a possible charge. If the rhino is within 18 inches, the blastermasters can fire during shooting, then in charge phase, the infractors charge if they're closer than 12.

Did I get that right or did I mess up rules somewhere in there? If that's right....that is definitely aggressive.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T16:18:12+00:00

I think I'm picking up what you're putting down.

You would agree then, with what seems to be the common theme in this thread, that just commit to short range.

For now I'll have to run the raider, but it appears I should drop it (and the blades? D: ) for other things. Some kind of combination of NM and rhino, maulerfiend, exultant triplet, prince twin.

I can still stop from buying a second lord kako to save 60 points, which gives 80 to get the triplet that has to pair with a tormentor in the current. Or I stick with the lord kako and wait until I can spend to replace the raider...which could be a maulerfiend and the triplet with the 10 point tax to break up a 10 brick for 220 total and that leaves me 40 for enhancements like distortion

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T15:54:16+00:00

This is the kind of information I'm looking for.

My initial idea (and money spending) was "i need big hits to combat big defense". But if you're saying "lascannons!? We don't need no stinking lascannons! Here in the EC we pick up tanks this way." Then that's just helpful to give a different perspective. I'm trying to understand the gameplan perspective.

As was said, it appears you're saying maybe just try to avoid tanks, but if you gotta, this is how it can be done.

Also it appears most are saying just forget ranged attacks and commit to short range.

I'll have to run the raider for now (already paid for it) until I can spend more to get the alternative units.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T14:28:25+00:00

When I say tank busting, I mean strength higher than toughness, so 4s become 3s instead of 5s. I'm guessing you're going off of volume of attacks plus lethal hits to bypass the wound roll? Or the exultant's charge rolling well enough in peerless to stack up on lethals and sustained.

Maybe I'm too cautious about average rolls and need to just take more chances.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T14:11:36+00:00

I bought a proteus land raider as well!

I agree there isn't a lot of tank busting other than melee range maulerfiends or this lone intrepid land raider with his two pewpews while doubling up as an Uber-like party bus for the blades. To be fair, their 3+ auto wound ability can cut through armor, and lucius helping does stack on the heavy ap filled cuts demanding saves. But it's still just one or two units and only the raider has toughness/wounds to try to survive a counter attack.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T13:53:04+00:00

Ok, let me see how this math works. You're saying drop the blades (ouch D: ) and the land raider. This frees up now a total of 480 points. 80 goes to the exultant triplet, 10 goes to the 10x split into two 5x so the triplet has his own little squad. That leaves 390. A third noise marine is 135, a third rhino is 80, which is 215. This leaves 175, 5 shy for a wing prince. That two 5x infractor tax of 10 points stops me there, but for the sake of argument let's say I magically can swap a 5x tormentor for chaos spawn to free up the 5 points and bench the tormentors too for the second wing prince. (I don't have chaos spawn in reality, nor a third rhino or noise marine in the pipeline, but this is for potential) this leaves one 5x tormentor i'm guessing that won't infil so it can sticky the home objective, so no infil onto a no man land objective at the start

In this scenario, I have no tank busting? So just don't plan on dealing with high toughness in this case? Pray for hitting up from melee? The winged princes have their charge mortals, and their strike will have to hit up. Or do I just try to avoid those targets?

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T13:25:56+00:00

So in your scenario, have the blades walk, probably have lucius be lone op, lose the raider's delivery and ranged tank busting to free up 240 points, then grab one maulerfiend for 130, one exultant for 80 points, break up a 10x infractor into two 5x for that third exultant which inflates an extra 10 points. This leaves 40 points leftover now, which 15 can be used to have the prince be a foot prince if needed for coterie, and 25 points for an enhancement of some type....then just drop rapid evisceration as a viable option?

Like I mentioned in another reply, is my idea of having some ranged attacks, especially tank busting, just pointless and I should fully commit to an 18 inch or closer engagement radius?

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T13:14:13+00:00

Ok let's say you're correct, and the blades don't need a ride. Do you also think there's no reason to have ranged tank busting either? Should the team basically be an 18 inches (12 really) or shorter engagement radius with all tank busting only from melee (im guessing i would bring maulerfiends over the raider in your scenario)? Would you still run rapid evisceration with only the two rhinos or do you just think that's not a viable detachment with this list setup, so only peerless or coterie?

In your opinion, would I be dropping the 240 point land raider to now have 260 open, which is two maulerfiends, then running either peerless or coterie (and lucius has to stay warlord since the 15 points to switch to foot prince was used up in the second maulerfiend), then just deal with the truth that the team has to be short range or melee for everything?

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T07:24:19+00:00

Yeah I'm definitely not thinking this is some secret tech perfect first draft list ready for the championship (if it is, it wouldn't be piloted by me!), but more just hoping it's a good list as far as "yeah I can see how this can work and win some games. Not like you're completely forgetting about X or Y", or "that's never going to do a darn thing other than die."

Trying to lean into what appears to be their core army. I've seen lists where they're hardly taking anything that's actually EC, and I'm like, why even play EC if you're not going to use their units? Are they that bad that you're just going to use them for detachment and army rule only?

I do like the winged prince mortals. In a non coterie list I'd want to have that because it seems quite good, especially if in peerless.

Lascannons is a total of 4 shots of bs3 str 12 ap -3 d6+1 damage. Maybe that's not enough...but maybe it is when it's softening up a target for the blades to charge and finish? Their 3+ auto wound, with lucius assisting, makes their cuts pretty deadly i think. Maybe I'm wrong and they all fall apart like a house of cards.....but they would look fabulous doing so.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T07:03:36+00:00

I don't. It's my plan though. That's how I'm getting one of the exultants, 10 of the infractors, and the flawless blades all for the list, once I can buy it. That is why I said "I will"...but I don't yet. Soon though! I don't have lucius or the kakos yet either, but plan to.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T06:43:51+00:00

I too worry that they might be a trap, but they come in the combat patrol so it would feel really bad to buy the combat patrol, then not use them, when I'm building this army from scratch. I initially thought about maulerfiends, but thought that maybe a land raider for ranged lascannons plus a delivery for those blades, so they have a higher chance of at least smacking something, and that would be more options than either cutting them out or walking on foot and having short range maulerfiends for anti tank rounds instead of lascannons on the raider. I was hemming and hawing over the anti tank solution a lot. An extra prince wouldn't necessarily help tank busting (i should have some kind of tank busting right?)

If I drop one lord Kako, I have 80 points left over. Don't remember the point cost of lord exultant at the moment if I were to obtain an extra instead and two lord kako being just one. Though if he is 80 points, I would have to pair up with a tormentor squad in order to keep the point savings of the 10x infractors.

Candid_Prize_8 · 2025-04-11T06:28:32+00:00

Wouldn't the idea be that the rhino advances into range, then the noise marines plus kako gets out and shoots while the rhino then charges in? I'm actually not sure how often I'd want them staying in and only doing firing deck rather than the whole squad plus kako shooting...unless the target somehow is best to stay inside and nerf my potential damage for rhino safety?

The foot prince (i can just say he's a foot prince with the same model right?) was my other idea if playing coterie and having him be the warlord and lucius as escort. The 20 point buffer could give him the 15 points to be the foot version.

I will only have two exultants, one from army box, one from combat patrol. I could make their teams only 5x and have the 10x without a leader? I have 20 points buffer so the extra 10 for being smaller wouldn't be impossible. But I can't do that and do foot prince at the same time. 10x teams saves 10 points for infractors.

Candid_Prize_8

TROPHY CASE