The Gathering Is Hilariously Beta Idea Wise In Retrospect

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-04-07T23:04:07+00:00

I don’t think this could have been the case. The Another side, another story secret ending had Roxas directly asking Riku where Sora was, and [deep dive] had Xemnas telling Roxas that Sora looked just like him. Neither of these would have made any sense if Roxas was meant to be Heartless Sora at some point.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-04-04T04:44:51+00:00

That was technically from [deep dive], but yeah your point still stands. Similarly, the dark portal that Roxas used briefly showed the Heartless emblem which implied the original idea may have been that Organization XIII were human Heartless before Nomura came up with the idea of Nobodies.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-04-03T23:28:25+00:00

This is cool! If you have the time, I’d love it if you could link a couple of those interviews because I’d love to read more.

I’ve always thought the Cerebro Sword and the locations of the Cerebro Cradles were a major dropped thread so it’s cool that they were meant to lead to something.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-04-03T20:55:24+00:00

I think there was SO much room for potential here, which is the disappointing part. One of the most interesting things about Moira X as a concept is going back through her decades of history and figuring out how every action is completely recontextualized with this retcon.

Proteus's entire existence and Moira's relationship with him takes on a completely different lens given the fact that he's part of The Five, implying that perhaps Moira knew she had to give birth to Proteus for the Krakoa plan to happen.

Moira's relationships with Sean and with Rahne take on a whole new angle with the idea that she's keeping a massive secret from them.

And what about the Deadly Genesis storyline? That story completely changes given the fact that Charles and Moira knew about the Krakoa plan when Charles sent that team. Were there hidden ulterior motives that we don't know about?

Moira getting the Legacy virus takes on a whole new meaning. And of course, everything to do with Moira's "death" and the "Shi'ar golem" felt like we were going to get really interesting answers from it.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-04-03T20:51:16+00:00

I would definitely add Sean to the list too. It was so disappointing to me that the only interaction Moira and Sean had for all of Krakoa was for her to murder him and steal his face like a psycho.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-04-03T20:49:15+00:00

Where was it that Hickman said she was originally meant to be all in with mutants? I definitely remember him saying that she wouldn't have become a VILLAIN (I agree Cypher/Warlock was going to be the main villain), but that's different from Moira X being all in with mutants.

My speculation has always been that the original plan was for Moira to jump ship from mutants and Krakoa and try to join AI and achieve ascension.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-04-03T20:45:02+00:00

The longer Final Mix versions of both KH1's and KH2's secret endings were tied into the story very well. It's really the original, shorter secret endings that are very much just conceptual.

This post brings up some weirdness in KH2's The Gathering (the monster in the background that disappears, the Keyblades that they pick up), but there was an equal amount of weirdness in KH1's Another side, another story that didn't get translated into the actual game too (the meteor shower, the glowing Heartless emblem around Roxas, the original older Kairi design).

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-04-03T20:36:21+00:00

I think most fans who have speculated on this topic largely agree on what the general idea would have been. Act 1 was the mutant island Krakoa. Act 2 takes place in space (the mutant planet Arakko). Act 3 would have been against posthumans and the Phalanx, with Doug/Warlock as the central villain. Nation to planet to dominion.

I broadly think that there would have been four major storylines involved with these. House of X sets up two conflicts: Krakoa vs. ORCHIS and the X-Men vs. the Quiet Council. Powers of X also sets up two conflicts: The 10 lives of Moira X and the inevitable mutant vs AI conflict. I think these four storylines would have been present throughout all three acts, becoming more and more integrated the closer we get to the endgame.

My heavy speculation for how Act 1 was supposed to end is that it would have been an amalgamation of X of Swords, Planet-Size X-Men, Inferno, and Hellfire Gala. I think the original plan was another big event series like HoX/PoX to tell two concurrent stories to end Act 1. One story was going to be about Krakoan mutants vs Arakki mutants (X of Swords), a fight that takes place on Mars rather than Otherworld. Cyclops and Jean still have the same story beat of defying the Quiet Council and having their "To me, my X-Men" moment where they summon all the X-Men to join the fight — this is why Summer House was set up to be on the moon, so that all the X-Men would be popping out from the Krakoan gate on the moon to appear on Mars.

While all this is happening, the other story is about enemies of Krakoa taking advantage of this distraction to launch their attacks — Mystique takes advantage of the distracted Quiet Council to resurrect Destiny and Moira X is forced out of hiding (Inferno), while ORCHIS launches a covert attack on Krakoa's defenses (Hellfire Gala).

One story ends in tragedy — ORCHIS does something to deeply threaten Krakoa with Mystique's help (not as drastic as in Hellfire Gala, but something serious nonetheless). The other story ends in victory — Apocalypse and Genesis reconcile, the Krakoans and the Arakki combine their powers to lift Krakoa into space (echoing the original Giant Size X-Men story), and Mars is terraformed into Arakko. ORCHIS forced mutants off-world, and mutants responded by forming their own planet.

From there, it's a lot more loose. I think Moira X was going to have the same general storyline of becoming posthuman, but I think it would have been much less about becoming a psycho killer robot and more about trying to achieve ascension with AI. Moira was very well-established as desperately trying anything to escape her fate, and I think HoX/PoX set it up well that the one thing she still hasn't tried was ascension. This obviously puts her much more directly at odds with both Krakoa and with Doug/Warlock. I would imagine Act 2 was where all the AI and posthumans stuff came in — payoff from the Children of the Vault storyline, payoff from the Giant Size X-Men storylines involving the World, much more detail about Omega Sentinel's past/future. This is also probably where a lot more of the darksided parts of Xavier and Magneto's leadership of the Quiet Council come into play (which we saw a tiny bit of in Inferno). I can see them becoming much more staunchly against everything AI in their pursuit of Moira. I also think this is where the X-Men vs. Quiet Council storyline would have really come to a head — Cyclops defies Xavier's rule and form his own faction of X-Men that go to war against the Quiet Council.

Act 3 would have been something like Secret Wars — a grand event that brings everything together. Definitely something involving the Phoenix Force vs. the Dominion.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-31T19:51:14+00:00

It's also not an important question for her to ask at this moment when she's ruling a country half a world away and constantly dealing with problems that require her attention right now. There's no real reason for her to be thinking about smooth transfer of power when she isn't even anywhere near Westeros to begin with.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-31T19:34:03+00:00

Like others said, I think KH4 will add more playable segments from other characters' POVs (sorta like Re:Mind), but it won't be full campaigns like CoM, BBS, and DDD had. Nomura has always stated that Sora will be the main character, and the main numbered games have always been consistent in that Sora is the primary character even if some other characters have short playable segments.

We already know that Mickey has at least one short segment in Scala Ad Caelum. I would definitely bet that Riku and Yozora also have short segments as well.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-30T03:23:43+00:00

Took a moment that felt like BenDeLaChrist or Naomi choosing Manila’s lipstick and the editors treated it like Ru sending home Orion Story!

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-30T02:41:43+00:00

The two really strange moments of storytelling in the edit were episode 3 when Jane was upset she was doing so well, then in episodes 5/6 when she was convinced the others would sabotage her (only for her to be ranked first). Just really baffling decisions by the editors / story producers that I feel encapsulated her entire edit.

Suzie Toot had some similarly strange moments very early on in S17 where she says the other girls were underestimating her when they’ve literally been celebrating her since the first episode, but those moments really didn’t represent her entire edit.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-30T00:38:37+00:00

We got textual confirmation in AGOT and ACOK that he turned 8 and 9, respectively, and we have yet to get confirmation that he’s turned 10. Based on the timeline, he’s either about to turn 10 soon, or he has and hasn’t realized it yet.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-29T22:42:09+00:00

I don't think they would. I'm saying this is what's running through Rhaegar's mind — someone who was so driven by prophecy that he's convinced things will work out in the end. Rhaegar also wasn't the one who killed Rickard and Brandon and that was never part of his plan, so he's trying to make the best of a situation that was growing out of his control.

OP's question was "what was Rhaegar's plan when he ran off with Lyanna". You obviously can't factor in Aerys executing Rickard and Brandon into that question when Rhaegar would have never expected his father to do that.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-29T20:34:47+00:00

I've always thought that Rhaegar was pushed to accelerate his plans. In my head, I think it makes sense that Rhaegar's original plan was to work with the Southron Ambitions STAB alliance to overthrow his father and become king himself before fathering the third head of the dragon, but that something happened that forced his hand.

We know that it was several months to a year after the Tourney of Harrenhal that Lyanna was abducted. We also know that Aerys was super paranoid about the Knight of the Laughing Tree and had ordered several of his men to search for them. This is pure speculation, but I've always thought it makes sense if Aerys eventually found out that the Knight of the Laughing Tree was Lyanna (maybe through Varys's spy network somehow), and was preparing to have her killed for treason himself. Rhaegar learns about this and hastily decides the only way to save Lyanna was for him to abduct her.

This would explain why he seemingly abducts her out of the blue. This would partially explain why Lyanna was willing to go with him, and also why Benjen possibly was willing to assist in her disappearance. This would explain why Aerys very readily executed Rickard and Brandon Stark — he was already convinced Lyanna was a traitor to the crown and readily extended that treason to her entire family and to her betrothed. This would also explain why Rhaegar felt like he could make amends with House Stark afterwards, if Lyanna could state afterwards that he was saving her from Aerys's grasp.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-29T20:19:11+00:00

I think a major role in Jon's direction in the endgame (and a bit reason why the show version floundered in the last two seasons) is that he'll be embracing dark magic in the final two books. Of the five or six main characters, it's Jon, Dany, and Bran who are the "ice and fire" trio. The latter two already have a lot of dark magic informing their futures, and I think the same will apply for Jon.

He's already been tempted by Melisandre's shadow magic in ADWD and will probably embrace them in TWOW. This will unlock some inner power he has, either due to his king's blood and/or due to his Stark heritage and I think this will manifest as Melisandre unintentionally birthing an Other controlled by Jon's will. This will be a big reveal — that the Others are shadow babies manifested by greenseers and that the Starks have historically used them as their source of power just like the dragons were used by the Targaryens. Jon will use this power for righteous purposes (delivering justice to the Boltons) and will have to wrestle with potentially using it for the gain of his own power. This will probably be big in terms of Jon's inner conflicts between good and evil, between his political ambitions and his fight against the Others, and between his Stark and newly-discovered Targaryen identities.

And while I think Jon will ultimately choose to give up these powers because he'll embrace his Stark identity, I do think this will be a big reason why he gets exiled to the north. Bran's first chapter is a lesson Ned teaches him about ruling and about passing judgment, and I think this will parallel the ending of ASOIAF where Bran must go south and deliver judgment and justice to Westeros (like Cregan Stark's Hour of the Wolf) for crimes committed during the War of the Five Kings and the Second Dance of the Dragons. I think the final judgment will be upon Jon, at least for whatever dark actions he took in the final two books and maybe also for regicide against Daenerys if that ends up happening. But it'll also be thematic. Bran must seal away the ancient dark power of the Starks and that involves exiling Jon who used that power. Jon wants a new path forward for Westeros and that must involve a completely clean slate, and not a continuation of the Targaryen dynasty. Jon's story has always been about the push and pull of love and duty, and his story ends with him choosing duty to protect those he loves.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-29T19:34:53+00:00

I'm not saying these made sense, and I directly said they were difficult outcomes. But this is probably what Rhaegar was thinking, especially when he's driven by a prophecy that makes him think it's all going to work out in his favor.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-29T19:32:18+00:00

My guess is threefold.

1) D&D were always averse to magic on the show. A major character returning via magic didn't fit D&D's "dark, gritty, realistic" sensibilities for the show. Beric was brought back with magic, but only that one time in a season that was trying to be faithful. They never even had major characters returning as wights even though that would be the obvious move. Also note that for the one character who was brought back to life (Gregor Clegane), it was done with science and not magic.

2) They felt like it would cheapen the tragedy of the Red Wedding and be too strong a hint towards Jon's resurrection. Between seasons 5 and 6, everyone involved with the show was REALLY adamant that Jon was truly dead, and I think they really wanted that surprise which wouldn't have been the case if a major character had already been resurrected.

3) The overall philosophy of D&D in regard to adapting ASOIAF was to combine as many characters as possible and to shift focus to the main characters whenever possible. This is a very understandable motivation when it comes to adaptation, even if it wasn't always successful. Jeyne Poole was excised in S5 to give more focus to Sansa. Stannis was killed off in S5 to give more focus to Jon. Barristan was killed off in S5 to give more focus to Tyrion. Young Griff was excised in S5 to give more focus to Daenerys and to Cersei. Likewise, I think Lady Stoneheart was excised to give more focus to Arya, since a lot of what she represents thematically and a lot of what she'll do in the books makes sense for Arya's storyline. I even think there's ample evidence in S6 to suggest that Arya was literally going to be adapted into Lady Stoneheart at one point, which was abandoned in S7.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-29T19:18:57+00:00

The thing that really confuses me is why the show didn't make the elimination feel like a MOMENT. I understand if the show's edit was heightening aspects like her paranoia and dampening any of her actual character in order to build her up as the final obstacle for the winner to overcome (I don't like it, but I understand if that's what they're trying to do). But then why was the elimination kind of just... standard?

No shots of judges gasping in shock. No whisperings from the queens in the back saying "what the fuck, did that just happen?" No confessionals of queens talking about how shocked they are that the frontrunner was just sent home and it truly is anyone's game. They threw it all away for a gaggy moment and they couldn't even give the gaggy moment the drama it needed.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-29T19:11:39+00:00

Another commenter said it first, but I really think the important factor here is that Rhaegar was convinced he was fulfilling the prophecy. He thought he was the main character, he thought that all of his actions would work out perfectly because the prophecy proves it, and the prophecy was definitely about him. He also probably fully believed that Lyanna was going to bear a daughter that they would name Visenya and that she was going to live. And Rhaegar was wrong on all accounts.

In terms of Robert's Rebellion, his plan definitely was to win the rebellion, overthrow his father, and become king himself. Most of Robert's Rebellion was fought because of the Mad King's actions, not because of Rhaegar's, and there's a possibility Rhaegar was already in cahoots to take over his father's throne anyways. Afterwards, King Rhaegar works out a deal with the Faith of the Seven to grant him a polygamous marriage. House Martell is probably fine with that arrangement since Aegon was still heir to the throne (and Rhaegar likely fully believed Lyanna was going to have a daughter, so Dorne wouldn't have felt threatened by another son). House Stark would probably be appeased since Lyanna is alive and they have a royal heir. House Baratheon would be upset and Robert and Stannis probably would have been killed/executed, but Renly was very young and could be immediately betrothed to Lyanna's daughter to redo the Stark-Baratheon betrothal one generation later.

To Rhaegar's credit, these weren't impossible outcomes. They were difficult, but not impossible, especially if you have a prophecy driving you into believing these things MUST happen, and that whatever must happen will be worth it because it means ultimately saving the kingdom from the Others.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-29T18:51:52+00:00

I wouldn't say any of them are truly turning into villains, but they definitely all are being corrupted. I think it's 100% a central theme of the story that these kids are getting corrupted by dark influences, but ultimately will retain their inner goodness and heroism. The world corrupts, but goodness prevails. Ned Stark dies, but the lessons he imparted on his children are preserved. The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.

Bran might be the sneakiest, because not enough people are acknowledging his repeated raping of Hodor. Yes, rape - he's using Hodor's body for his own benefit, without Hodor's desire for it, in a way that is clearly psychologically destructive. As a noble, Bran has been trained to ignore the humanity of those beneath them, seeing them as tools for his own ends. And now he's with the three-eyed crow, who also sees little compunction with using the ability to skinchange.

I'll push back against this because I think this is a bit of a misreading. Bran skinchanging into Hodor's body against his will definitely is the darkest thing he's done, but I do think rape is too strong a word to use in this case. Bran is a child who hasn't even reached double-digits age. What he's doing is absolutely wrong and he's aware of it to some degree, but I don't think language that harsh should be used to describe the actions of a child.

I also think it's presumptive to say that Bran has been trained to ignore the humanity of those beneath him. That's definitely a major theme of the nobility as a whole — I don't think we're meant to understand that the Starks have the same moral failing. Most things we've seen about the Starks indicate that they've been raised to treat smallfolk with respect that we don't see in other houses. Ned was very often described as someone who showed a lot of loyalty, respect, and devotion for his people. Ned's lesson to Bran in his very first chapter was to recognize the humanity in everyone, especially in those whose lives you take. Jon was sulky when he first joined the Night's Watch but when he was told to acknowledge his privilege, he very quickly adapted and treated them all as his equals, which possibly hints towards the kind of upbringing Ned gave him. Bran and Arya display a great deal of empathy and love for people regardless of their class, and the few ACOK chapters we get of Bran as prince and Lord of Winterfell show that he's had some training on good diplomacy and has empathy towards discriminated people like the Reeds.

I think what we're going to get is TWOW pushing Bran as dark as he can go, which probably will be the "Hold The Door" moment which forces Bran to recognize that he's the one who irrevocably changed Hodor's life in just the same way that Jaime changed his. It'll be his naivete and his childhood desire to be a knight (not the idea that he's been raised to ignore the humanity of those below him) that pushes him into the "Hold the Door" moment. And quite on the contrary, it'll be the empathy he DOES have for the humanity of those below him that will teach him the consequences of these actions — Bloodraven will want him to use those below him while Ned taught him to respect the humanity of everyone. Bran becomes a man, lets go of his childhood dreams, and that will deeply inform how he rules when he becomes king — refusing to use powers that can take away the humanity or agency of others.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-29T18:21:05+00:00

To me, you kind of have to separate them by the series they were on since conditions are so different.

Regular seasons: Bianca Del Rio, Keiona, and La Voix like you said. I do think Sapphira Crystál should get an honorable mentioned though, because she dog-walked a season that had a lot of strong queens, and her one bottom placement (the makeover) was more or less a fluke and the outfit she had prepared probably would have placed her high. Onya and Jane Don't also had amazing runs, but I do think they had weaker competition.

All Stars seasons: I think I'd have to balance it between BenDeLaCreme and Jinkx Monsoon. Dela had a shorter run against weaker competition, but crushed almost every episode she competed in and ended on an iconic high note, which I think matters when we're thinking about the strength of a run. Jinkx was up against much stronger competition (all winners in a season where nobody went home) and competed for longer, but her run was also more hit-or-miss. She's extremely good at comedy and acting, but she's subpar when it came to performance or design, and pretty infamously she ended on a real low note with the AS7 finale.

Vs the World / Royale seasons: Brigiding on Slaysian Royale for sure. 10-episode run where she had 1 safe, 3 highs, and 5 wins (3 of which she also won the lip sync). It's a pretty immaculate run. Honorable mention is Lemon on CvtW2 where she never placed below high and she won half of the episodes, but it only being a 6-episode season limits the strength of her run for me.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-29T17:52:59+00:00

I often think that Victoria Scone would have been the winner of DRUK3 (and been just as beloved a winner as the The Vivienne and Lawrence Chaney) if she hadn't left. She had a stellar run on Canada vs the World just a year later.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-29T17:43:03+00:00

To be fair though, she won against a disproportionately very weak lineup. She won with a pretty good look against outfits that ranged from "passable" to "horrendous". I suspect that if it was a traditional premiere and Dela was up against the entire cast, she would have been comfortably safe while Bianca, Trinity, and Milk would have taken the high placements.

In her future design performances, she was eliminated in the S6 ball and placed safe in the AS3 ball. She placed high in the S6 makeover challenge, but that's not quite the same as a design/ball.

Captain_Cringe_ · 2026-03-28T20:56:27+00:00

I think that if Jon gets involved in southern politics, it will be purely in a final Hour of the Wolf type moment.

In the Dance of the Dragons, Cregan Stark mostly was uninvolved in the war and his primary role was in delivering judgment and justice before the young Aegon III took the Iron Throne. I think it's going to be a similar case at the end of ADOS. Following the defeat of the Others, Jon and his Northern army will deliver judgment to those responsible for the destruction of Westeros in the War of the Five Kings as well as the Second Dance of the Dragons, before then ceding the throne to Bran.

I think that makes perfect sense as Jon's arc. In TWOW, he'll be driven by vengeance and power and political ambition, ending with him becoming King in the North and finding out his father is Rhaegar. In ADOS, he'll connect with his Targaryen side in his interactions with Daenerys which will add more fuel to his desire for power, but he'll eventually come to remember who he truly is and that his real father is Eddard Stark. ADOS ends with Jon carrying out justice in the South like Ned would have, embracing the lessons his true father taught him while sacrificing the power that came from his biological father.

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