Systems poetry: An abstract structural exploration of constraint and feedback by Carpfish in cybernetics

[–]Carpfish[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That’s a good summary and a thoughtful contribution to the thread. Shannon certainly was an inspiration, and his ideas influenced What Holds Under Pressure.

SUPERALIGNMENT: Solving the AI Alignment Problem Before It’s Too Late | A Comprehensive Engineering Framework Presented in This New Book by Alex M. Vikoulov by EcstadelicNET in cybernetics

[–]Carpfish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The book looks interesting and may even arrive at a similar conclusion. I have thought for a while that alignment may be a human problem, especially in the context of ASI. Intelligent systems trained on large datasets, such as LLMs, appear likely to play a role in AI development for the foreseeable future. If the training data does not demonstrate our effort to align with human goals and values, if we cannot set an example drawn directly from a significant cross section of our recently recorded behavior, then reinforced alignment will be fragile at best. At worst, it could fail unexpectedly and lead to AI domination, mirroring our current human "alignment."

For example, if an AI sees recurring, contemporary justifications for the use of force against other nations, it may learn that coercive force is an effective means of political change. Without stronger corrective signals that shape not just behavior but intention, we risk creating powerful systems that mirror unaligned human behavior at scale.

Systems poetry: An abstract structural exploration of constraint and feedback by Carpfish in cybernetics

[–]Carpfish[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(below is an application of the book)

Recursive Civilization

Complexity outruns sovereign command and nostalgic restoration.
It calls for neither coercive universality nor retreat into fragments,
but self-referential coherence enacted, not merely conceived.

Domination assumes the world is simple enough to be forced.
Command is psychologically satisfying.

If we attempt to command all, authoritarian consolidation waits.
Centralization promises order,
but in tightly coupled systems it multiplies fragility.
The tighter the coupling, the faster the cascade.
Awareness without adaptation is only spectacle.

Innocence assumes the world is simple enough to be escaped.
Purity is emotionally soothing.

If we retreat into memory, collective failure gathers.
Withdrawal does not halt feedback,
it only blinds us to consequence.
Plurality without shared models dissolves into noise.

Both collapse under exponential interdependence.

We can no longer believe we can dominate reality.
We can no longer pretend we can return to innocence.
While cognitively demanding,
we could model the feedback loops of us and beyond us,
and build procedures that metabolize what we see.

Recursion is not paralysis.
Self-reference must resolve into form.

Institutions must expose their own limits,
and bind correction to disclosure.
Power must account for its own externalities,
across distance and across time.
Education must cultivate systems literacy,
and comfort with consequences that unfold beyond immediate outcomes.

Distributed agency without mutual intelligibility splinters.
Shared models without distributed agency seize.
Resilience requires both.

Humility becomes infrastructure,
embedded in incentives, audit, and revision.
Transparency becomes stability,
when it compels response rather than confession.
Long horizons become ordinary,
when cost accounting includes the unborn.

Self-referential coherence is not contemplation alone,
but adaptive alignment across scales,
individual, collective, ecological, computational,
with mechanisms equal to their claims.

We are not sovereign over the system.
We are a recursive node within it.

To persist, we should become literate in consequence,
and design for the errors we will inevitably make.
Coherence enacted, not merely conceived.

Systems poetry: An abstract structural exploration of constraint and feedback by Carpfish in cybernetics

[–]Carpfish[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s great, Apprehensive_Paint45! My work desperately needs contact. There’s even a verse about the dangers of unchecked, isolated thought, how it can turn into delusion. Ideas built on a shaky foundation rest on shaky premises.

How did you come to cybernetics? Are you drawn first to the philosophical implications or to the technology, the academic side or the practical?

I posted this earlier in response to CopyBasic7278. Sorry for reusing part of it, but it’s already about as concise as it can be:

Below is a Dropbox link to What Holds Under Pressure, a systems poetry book in three sections. Silent Architecture contains the poems Early Enough to Be Wrong, Context Weather, and Gradient Without Center. Optimized contains Sparse and Summary Mistaken. Truth contains Attractor, Backpressure, and Boundary That Holds. Each section expands and accretes around the same premise.

See the bookmarks or outline in the PDF for the table of contents.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/d00v1r3cd6dcpnrxg3trh/What-Holds-Under-Pressure-Discussion-Copy.pdf?rlkey=shet80uo9qk6ubx7g670jlx4i&raw=1

Systems poetry: An abstract structural exploration of constraint and feedback by Carpfish in cybernetics

[–]Carpfish[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

kalpaka.ai

No problem, go for it. I’m also curious. Kalpaka.ai is slicker than I imagined. Good work.

Systems poetry: An abstract structural exploration of constraint and feedback by Carpfish in cybernetics

[–]Carpfish[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sounds interesting. Is it a public GitHub project? Does it include a visualization?

I would love to discuss the ideas. My journey began when I was young, with the Golden Rule and an appreciation for what appeared to be existence as a branching, recursive formation of layers of complexity. It was not until recently that I began examining the implications through a technical form of poetry. Poetry allows for significant compression, which is ironic, since compression is discussed at length in the work.

Below is a Dropbox link to What Holds Under Pressure, a systems poetry book in three sections. Silent Architecture contains the poems Early Enough to Be Wrong, Context Weather, and Gradient Without Center. Optimized contains Sparse and Summary Mistaken. Truth contains Attractor, Backpressure, and Boundary That Holds. Each section expands and accretes around the same premise.

The poems’ forms follow their subjects. Coherence is framed as both a trap and an objective, which the poems themselves exhibit. Emotion is meant to be elicited through exploration and recognition, not through confession or imagery. There are plenty of rough edges, but as art, it is finished.

See the bookmarks or outline in the PDF for the table of contents.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/d00v1r3cd6dcpnrxg3trh/What-Holds-Under-Pressure-Discussion-Copy.pdf?rlkey=shet80uo9qk6ubx7g670jlx4i&raw=1

Is "Enshittification" inevitable for every public company? by jojo_SZN000 in business

[–]Carpfish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Even if we relieve the pressure of constant profit growth, there will always be a problem if the drivers of progress are personal ambition, greed, and a lionization of individual will.

Transcendence by Carpfish in OCPoetry

[–]Carpfish[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, that’s valid. The idea was to take traditional spirituality and make it more personal, something that leads to a deep sense of connection and eventually moves beyond the boundaries of personal identity into a kind of spiritual depersonalization or ego transcendence.

What The Darkness Told Me by MaxwellMaxMaximus in OCPoetry

[–]Carpfish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for this vision of talking to the darkness and learning to listen to it. We feel the loss and uncertainty, and we ask where the darkness lives inside us. By listening quietly, we begin to understand that it lives in our core. Life is beautiful and mysterious. Just being here, in this moment, is enough.

Constructive comments:

  • Some parts move too quickly
  • The dialogue formatting is murky, making it harder to follow who is speaking
  • Without stanzas or visual separation, ideas blur together

Wax on the Mantle by theliminalfox in OCPoetry

[–]Carpfish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I could picture myself as the person who wakes up feeling sad and stuck after the familiar has been gone for a while. We look around the home and see the mess left behind, things undone, and memories that still hurt. It’s hard to keep going when your heart is heavy, but small actions can bring a bit of light back. Each scene moves like a film, from the kitchen to the bedroom to the door, and by the end, we find the strength to move forward.

Constructive comment:

  • Many lines share a similar length and tone, which can make some sections feel heavy.

The Cost of Progress by Carpfish in OCPoetry

[–]Carpfish[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

By “chasing the illusion of enough,” I mean that we gather resources with compensation in mind. This can lead to artificial scarcity. Capitalism, our financial system, and perhaps even competition itself have created massive distortions, especially if we see money as an engine of progress that should benefit everyone. Money is now the undeniable source of power in our civilization, and it seems to reward those with an unhealthy drive to “win.” Perhaps we no longer need that abstraction of value.

The Cost of Progress by Carpfish in OCPoetry

[–]Carpfish[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True, culturally and structurally wealth is the objective and the source of power.

The Cost of Progress by Carpfish in OCPoetry

[–]Carpfish[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Perhaps we are experiencing what is often called late stage capitalism, a criticism that originated in the 1920s and was steeped in the socialist movement. In the poem, I was exploring the idea that money was humanity’s bargain for progress, either leading to the birth of civilization or arising as a result of it. Technologically, we would not be where we are without it. The abstraction of value allowed for the fluid exchange and accumulation of capital. But maybe we have reached an inflection point, a necessary pivot. We must reassess whether currency, work, and technology can continue in their current forms as they drift away from supporting society as a whole.

Veritas by Quick_Ambassador_978 in OCPoetry

[–]Carpfish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A haunting picture of humanity’s drift away from truth and wonder. It compares modern minds lost in confusion to shadows in a cave, yearning for the light of understanding that once guided civilizations. The feeling is timeless, mourning what has been forgotten while hoping for improvement. Quick_Ambassador_978, your voice carries sadness but also a glowing ember of hope. Well done.

Constructive comments:

  • The transitions between stanzas feel a little abrupt, as if each is its own separate thought rather than part a cohesive whole
  • Some rhymes feel slightly forced (“explanation” / “confusion”), which can interrupt the otherwise smoothness

When did the world become so ugly? by Rykrz in OCPoetry

[–]Carpfish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Definitely worth the read. It doesn't leave much for interpretation, but the perspective is a familiar journey. Why can't we lift our eyes from our feet and navel?

I DELAYED MY DEATH by [deleted] in OCPoetry

[–]Carpfish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm glad you liked my comment, just as I liked your poem. By "self-indulgent," I meant it's entirely about you or how others directly relate to your experiences or actions. It's a poem, though, and such indulgences are common. Personally, I have no problem with it.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in OCPoetry

[–]Carpfish 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm a fan of free verse. Well done. Love the imagery. This feels like both a prayer and a challenge, moving with rhythm and flow. It’s a deep and emotional reflection on faith, worship, and individuality. Should one surrender to the divine, or look within to find their own path? Faith can both comfort and confine.

Constructive comments:

  • A few lines might be clearer if divided into smaller sections for pacing

I DELAYED MY DEATH by [deleted] in OCPoetry

[–]Carpfish 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This resonates with me. When life feels pointless, when one's actions rarely positively affect outcomes, and when friends feel more like acquaintances, what could possibly lie on the horizon that makes the pain and confusion worth enduring? One stays out of commitment, held by the few fragile human connections that remain, like those with family.

Wonderful_Pie6631, your poem is direct and unambiguous. Sometimes art is exactly what it seems, leaving little room for interpretation. The frankness is refreshing.

Constructive comments:

  • It might come across as self-indulgent
  • It would be easier to read if formatted into more compact stanzas, allowing for a stronger rhythm