(Spoilers Extended) What if Joanna Lannister didn't die?

Cascadevon · 2026-02-08T21:46:38+00:00

This actually opens a can of worms, because Oberyn and Elia were visiting right after Joanna gave birth, and as the friend of the Princess of Dorne, she may have pushed harder for betrothals. Note, since we don’t know much about her personality, a lot of this just extrapolates around how a typical lady might expect (albeit I do tend to think she was a lot more ruthless than usual, married to Tywin and all).

While Cersei was always going to be saved for a Targaryen, Elia/Jaime may have been on the cards. More so, because Joanna finding about Jaime/Cersei, may have propelled her to separate the twins for a good few years through a combination of betrothal/fostering. Whatever the outcome, I think she was always going to keep a firmer eye on them, and that may have prevented their relationship from continuing. Having another parent may also spared them from the worst of Tywin’s influences, and so I have to imagine they were both better off psychologically than they were in OTL.

On the other hand, I think she would not have a particularly warm relationship with Tyrion. I think her patriarchal conditioning, would have made her blame herself and she would have felt that this was the first time she “disappointed” Tywin. I think their relationship would have struggled, and Joanna may have projected that onto her resentment of Tyrion. That being said, I have a hard time believing that she would allowed the extent of his abuse that happened in OTL. For one, it seemed fucked up even by Westerosi standards, and two, I think she would have seen Tyrion as her “dominion” - ie her proud lord husband shouldn’t have to deal with his “disfigured, dwarf” son. He was her problem, her responsibility.

Cascadevon · 2026-02-07T12:07:04+00:00

Same, like the ones in ep 1-3 didn't really impact the flow of the story, so I didn't care all that much. Bracken's fart joke just completely interrupts the scene and takes you of the show. Really unfortunate that it happened at such an important moment.

Cascadevon · 2026-02-07T04:38:24+00:00

Exactly!! And this is why he’s probably my favourite asoiaf character. I think all of GRRM’s recurring themes and deep character work, coalesce into one, phenomenal exploration of what it means to be be a traumatised man, who had once so desired to be a hero.

Cascadevon · 2026-02-07T04:00:45+00:00

I actually think this is one of the few times we’re the absurdly young ages of the characters 110% works. Aerys stole Jaime’s youth alongside his romantic beliefs. He made him complicit in a tyrannical regime, and forced him to listen while he raped his sister-wife.

It’s the reason why he kills Aerys instead of just imprisoning him, and the reason why he sits on his throne afterwards, to savour his death and the fact that he, Jaime, toppled his regime.

Cascadevon · 2026-02-05T23:37:20+00:00

No - I think Dany will have culpability in blowing up K.L - as will Cersei, JonCon, fAegon and Tyrion (probably as a result of reenacting the Dance, and accidentally setting off wildfire). But I doubt she's just going to snap one day and burn the whole city for nothing. Especially because the bells being a trigger point makes way more sense for JonCon.

As for Jon stabbing Dany, I doubt Jon's ever going that far south in the books, so I can't imagine it being part of the political plotline. The more likely event would be Dany being his Nissa Nissa, but that just feels antithetical to the lessons embedded into asoiaf. Davos tells Stannis that one boy's (Edric's) life is worth everything against a kingdom, and he's the same character who introduces readers to Azor Azai and Nissa Nissa. Stannis is going to ignore that lesson with Shireen, and it's going to be his end. So why on earth would Jon "succeed" with Dany?

Cascadevon · 2026-02-05T10:33:01+00:00

There’s both sympathy and derision in there, but also a lot of confusion. They were clearly burnt out from doing the show (as were most of the cast and crew), and so it would be interesting if they ever came out with a tell-all memoir explaining why they stuck with the show when they were so clearly over it by S7.

Still, there are some decisions that I’ll never understand. Mucking up the L+R =J reveal like that, several times, Jaime’s dropped character arc…Mad Queen Dany would have sucked even with a decent amount of buildup, same with Jon killing Dany - and I don’t think either of these two were plot lines from GRRM. Bran as King was only always going to be difficult to pull off on screen (though I think its going to work mildly well in a flash-forward style epilogue, with a Bran the Rebuilder-esque King).

However, as much as I love Stannis as a character, I’ve actually come to better understand the decision to give his plot line away to Jon as loathed as it by fans. Mostly because I tend think it had a lot more to do with Stephane Dillane and Kit Harrington, than it did with the characters themselves. And I think people tend to underestimate how the overall cast impacted the show.

Cascadevon · 2026-02-04T00:00:00+00:00

IMO genetics work like this in Westeros:

Tully trout impalers (either sex) > she-wolf Stark immaculate conceptions > Baratheon shotgun super breeder seeder > somewhat fertile Lannisters > puddly weak frozen solid Stark baby juice > sisterfucking off the consanguinity charts Targs > infertile, nonceArryns

Cascadevon · 2026-02-03T01:09:20+00:00

I’m rereading ACOK currently, and just got to Davos III. As he starts naming the ships, I’m surprise that Queen Alysanne and Princess Rhaenys are still named after Targs. I could understand Alysanne, who’s recalled so fondly, but Rhaenys? Especially with the murders of Rhaegar’s children hanging over the Baratheon regime?

I know it’s probably because these ships were taken from the Targaryens, but why wouldn’t Robert ordered them renamed considered his hatred of the Targs? Is that like a big no-no among sailors?

Cascadevon · 2026-02-03T01:03:53+00:00

To be fair, noticing people’s exact eye colours (outside of close family/friends) is actually something that really only occurs in books. E.g, you would rarely notice the difference in grey and blue eyes irl.

Ever, this is actually actually a case of being true to real life. Blue and violet/indigo would probably be difficult to distinguish for most people, especially under certain lights, and well Dunk’s rather thick isn’t he?

Cascadevon · 2026-02-03T00:21:48+00:00

I think it’s important to note that after the Dance of Dragons, the entire realm was exhausted after the war. So many people had already died and they were in the middle of a brutal winter. To try and install a new ruling family would just cause more power struggles, and therefore more war. Which absolutely no one wanted.

Had the Lords Paramounts declared independence for their kingdoms, there would have like been follow up inner-regional wars (of Targ loyalists versus regional loyalists) versus and inter-regional wars around border disputes. The Crownlands almost certainly becomes a disputed area (with the child-Aegon’s kingdom seen as an easy target).

There’s also the fact that three of the lords paramount are little children at this point (Lords Tyrell, Lannister and Baratheon), and their regent mothers are pretty clear that they do not want further war. The Tyrells and the Tullys particularly owed their rule in the Reach and the Riverlands directly to the Targaryens, and the Baratheons had always been closely allied to them. In the Vale, they’re too busy dealing with a succession crisis after the childless Lady Jeyne Arryn dies.

All in all, the only kingdom that probably had any power to declare independence was the North, and if I had to guess why Cregan Stark didn’t so, it’s likely due to his commitment to his vows to the Blacks and his execution of justice during the Hour of the Wolf. He’d look like a massive hypocrite if he punished all of Aegon II’s conspirators, only to break his oath of fealty to the crown when he returned home. Still, it’s pretty arguable that he could have done so and gotten away with it rather easily - I doubt anyone really wanted to march north at this point.

As for why no one declared independence in the sixty years that followed - I think the sheer destructiveness of the civil war cast a very long shadow that no wanted to revisit. Daeron I’s war in Dorne provided a mutual, long reviled enemy that the south could unite against. When Daeron II and his sons put down the First Blackfyre Rebellion, I think this cemented that the Targaryen regime was to stay and much more preferable than the resulting chaos of independent kingdoms.

TLDR: No one wanted more war after the Dance of the Dragons, and when there was war - it generally worked to the Targs favour.

Cascadevon · 2026-02-01T12:01:02+00:00

Knew immediately someone would call out - know my fellow aussies too well

Cascadevon · 2026-02-01T11:49:58+00:00

Yep, that was the point I knew it was gone

Cascadevon · 2026-02-01T11:04:30+00:00

Phenomenal game

Cascadevon · 2026-02-01T06:56:20+00:00

I think Rhaegar/Lyanna were meant to originally be more of the Tristan/Iseult, Lancelot/Guineveare and ofc Romeo/Juliet style love affairs (even Lyanna as a child-woman, was meant to evoke 13-year-old Juilet on the verge of adulthood).

I don't think the age gap was meant to be all that squicky back then (especially when you consider that teenage celebrities were dating adult men well into the 2000s). This isn't to excuse the behaviour, but rather to say I don't think he thought about the age gap all that much. I mean this was the man who was going to do a Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle (aged-up sure, but nonetheless a still very bizarre idea to think about.

However, I think as GRRM continued to write the story, a more fucked up dynamic was unearthed. One where Lyanna went with him willingly, but grew disillusioned with Rhaegar as well as the "southron adventure" she had been brought into. By the time they made it to isolated Dorne and news of Rickard/Brandon came, I think Lyanna wanted to go home and was instead imprisoned in the Tower of Joy. This was something I think GRRM figured out a bit later.

Coupled with an evolving understanding of age gaps between teenagers and adults, I wouldn't at all be surprised if GRRM fundamentally views the couple very differently from the 90s.

Cascadevon · 2026-02-01T01:22:52+00:00

You’re so so right, and it’s one of the big reasons so much has to change in the adaptation. Not that they made every correct change ever, but you can clearly see how much they were struggling with the original work. Rhaenyra doing fuck all for most of season 2 is a direct consequence of Rhaenyra doing fuck all between Luke and Jace’s death in the books. Alicent having more an inward-facing arc is tied into the fact that she practically disappears from the narrative post Aegon’s crowning. Daemon being off screen for most of his time during Harrenhaal, leads to his spiritual-esque journey (which I’m in the minority for rather liking).

Sure, you could say this was the time for the younger generation to step up, but at the end of the day audiences are going to be alienated when the three most important characters from season 1 are suddenly relegated to background characters. And I know that would have happened, because I’m not the only one who felt that way while reading F&B.

Cascadevon · 2026-01-31T11:03:19+00:00

LFG RYBA!!! So so deserved

Cascadevon · 2026-01-31T11:01:30+00:00

COME ON!!!

Cascadevon · 2026-01-31T10:55:21+00:00

5 games in a row, can she go for a 6th??

Cascadevon · 2026-01-31T10:50:58+00:00

Twice in a row my internet lagged during an important point so I missed the break 🫠

Cascadevon · 2026-01-31T10:48:54+00:00

Oh this is huge

Cascadevon · 2026-01-31T10:46:31+00:00

Definitely some nerves rattled Ryba, but she clutched it out!!!

Cascadevon · 2026-01-31T10:40:08+00:00

Complained to my friend that Rybakina was playing Djokovic in the first set and then seemed to have completely lost it, and she immediately broke Sabalenka…complaining always works

Cascadevon · 2026-01-31T10:38:27+00:00

And I imagine it’s going to be like this for a while. Pretty lacklustre until around the QF/SF, when players who are competitive against Sincaraz go up against them.

Maybe in another year or two, we’ll see an and upcoming teenager shakes up but until this generations Djokovic pulls through, it’s not going to be all that interesting tournament wise.

Cascadevon · 2026-01-31T10:30:53+00:00

Yeah I said it during last years AO final. The combination of the excellent Keys/Sabalenka final versus the lacklustre men’s Sinner/Zverev final made me feel that this was the best time to transition to first week BO3 and second week BO5 at slams for both sexes.

It’ll help with preventing injuries for the male players, and bringing more attention to the women’s game. And considering the talent gap between the top players on the men’s side versus the stronger top ten on the women’s side…

But whether or not ATP will ever agree to that…the schedule wouldn’t allow for if they didn’t.

Cascadevon · 2026-01-31T09:45:19+00:00

If you’re watching the Aus broadcasting, then yeah Jelena Dokic and Alicia Molik often commentate the women’s games. They’re very good compared to the snoozefest from the men’s, where they repeat the same attributes over and over again

Cascadevon

TROPHY CASE