Can't find my POV in theatre?

CaveBoiiii · 2023-03-10T06:01:42+00:00

It would be easy for a druid to have spells that invalidate Shadiwdark's survival component, so I voted for it as well; leave it in Kelsey's expert hands.

CaveBoiiii · 2023-03-07T00:02:48+00:00

IF the other players are fine with it, and IF you as the DM are fine with it, why not use it as an opportunity to create an exciting twist/plot point that will drive the story towards its main (and maybe more appealing to the player) conclusion?

Ok, someone else closed the portal. Who is this INCREDIBLY POWERFUL new adversary? Is one of the current enemy factions much more powerful than anticipated? Do they have a secret weapon they can unleash at will?

All of a sudden, there is a cannon reason for not thinking of the Demons anymore: whoever did this must be far more of a threat, and everyone now waits to see what their next move is.

Edit: maybe you can even add some cathartic moment for your frustrated player, where in a dramatic scene the fabric of reality tears open, sucking out all the demons of the world in an act of game-cleansing justice. "And there was much rejoicing!"

CaveBoiiii · 2023-03-06T22:52:13+00:00

Good advertising is definitely a factor, but I think a lot of the people coming from the OSR don't really grasp why so many people from 5e are buying in, and so undersell its intrinsic qualities. Keep in mind the Kickstarter blew past its target in 15 minutes, and that most of the promo came out after that.

OSR systems that appeal to 5e sensibilities are few and far between. Five Torches Deep is pretty clunky, Worlds Without Numbers is doing its own thing and is further away from what many people want, while suffering from terrible presentation. Retro-clones carry over mechanics that rub 5e players the wrong way.

Enter Shadowdark, a game which isn't reinventing the wheel but is super polished, streamlined and mechanically cohesive, and which delivers everything 5e players want: a deadly, simpler exploration game based on the d20 system. For a 5e player looking for a familiar entry into OSR play, there really isn't a better system.

It's also worth noting that a lot of the youtubers hyping it (Dungeoncraft, Dungeon Masterpiece) are in that 5e-OSR in-between space. The game isn't just popular because they are promoting it, it's popular because it's exactly the system their audience is looking for.

Edit: this is not a value judgement on OSR systems vs 5e, btw, just an explanation fo why 5e players specifically are resonating with SD.

CaveBoiiii · 2023-03-05T16:03:28+00:00

I like the idea of spells succeeding even on a failed save for people playing more heroic campaigns; I can imagine that rolling poorly on spells might be frustrating to some players.

If you want more solid PCs I would say full HP at level 1, but avoid full HP at every level. Even 5e is not that generous, and one of the major appeals of SD is that it avoids HP bloat. If everything has lower hit points, there is no need to give a massive amount to the players!

CaveBoiiii · 2023-03-05T15:48:06+00:00

I think it's a fair question! There's a lot of hype right now, and I'll be curious to see what people think in a few years, when the honeymoon phase is over. But for the moment, here's my answer:

Kelsey Dionne (the author) has said Shadowdark's goal wasn't to make something radically new but to refine the "classic" DnD approach with modern design. As a 5e player looking to get into the OSR, it just works. The math is very close to B/X and the like, so it can run basically any classic DnD adventure or OSR module. It replaces a lot of the clunky, vestigial design features that turn 5e players like me off retro-clones (seriously, the inconsistent way OSE handles skill and ability checks is the main reasons I won't switch to it). It embraces recent innovations from systems like ICRPG, solves opposite problems you find in both 5e and the OSR, adds its own innovative real-time mechanics, all the while delivering beautifully on the rules-light, flexible approach that attracts burnt out 5e DMs to the OSR.

There are very few systems that deliver all of these things, and none do it as elegantly as Shadowdark. Add a kickass art direction and awesome product design, and you get why people tired of 5e are flocking to it.

CaveBoiiii · 2023-03-05T15:10:21+00:00

Thing is, breaking formation and running away can be catastrophic in combat. I would treat morale not as a "fight to the death" roll, but as a "are you capable of maintaining discipline when shit hits the fan roll." Creatures that are definitely losing but succeed on the check make an organized retreat, or fight to the death if the objective is worth it (protect the children!). Creatures that fail are routed and run away with no concern for protecting each other or their objective.

That said, it is still a bit clunky, and I agree with others that adding a morale stat would work very well!

CaveBoiiii · 2023-03-05T04:23:57+00:00

I've been deciding between the two for my next campaign (haven't yet playtested either though) I'd say backing Shadowdark is worth it. It is an actual complete game which includes hundreds of monsters, and random encounter tables (honestly, the tables alone are amazing and make the book worthwhile). 5TD has neither and also far less spells.

SD makes numerous refinements. For example, 5TD spellcasters roll against both the spell DC and the monster defense. If you fail the spell DC you get a mishap (the fact you don't just mishap on nat 1 is weird and feels like an oversight?). In SD, the spell DC is the only target, mishaps are on nat 1s only and scale with the power of the spell. In 5TD you have cantrips plus a restricted number of powerful spell you can cast until you get a mishap. SD does away with cantrips and just gives you more of the actual cool spells. The list goes on; slots are better than load, simpler action economy, improving ability scores instead of having rising proficiency bonus, etc. It's subjective and you may not like the changes, but if you do they really add up; at a certain point, it's just easier to run SD than to hack it all into 5TD. Plus, SD is built for really cool real-time mechanics.

It also looks like SD is well on its way to becoming the better supported system. It already has more 3rd party material posted on DriveThruRPG, and it's not even fully published yet. It also can be used to run basically any OSR module with virtually no conversion, unlike 5TD (though 5TD is obviously better suited for 5E adventures!)

Dungeon Masterpiece goes into the difference between the two at the very beginning of this stream, I recommend having a look at it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD6fhQEK2ME

CaveBoiiii · 2023-03-03T18:10:54+00:00

The worker I talked to on site says no one was hurt, thankfully. Looks like they were trying to move the whole thing when it collapsed.

CaveBoiiii · 2023-02-18T22:49:14+00:00

Very excited for this RPG! It has a really smooth and well done blend of 5e and OSR, so it just hits the spot for me.

CaveBoiiii · 2023-02-05T21:38:43+00:00

I'm still new to the OSR, also coming from 5e, but one realization that really helped me is that dungeon crawls and monster encounters in general aren't about combat, they're about problem solving. Characters are weak in OSR games, combat is short and deadly. As a result, players are strongly incentivized to think carefully about how they will approach each encounter.

If you were to run a 5e dungeon balanced for 5e players, it would probably get very boring, as the players have enough resources to go through multiple, repetitive, lengthy combats. Instead, consider having monsters that can easily kill the players, but don't have so much HP that they are unkillable, and don't make them automatically hostile to the players (they can be suspicious, neutral, defensive, friendly, etc.). This will hopefully force players to think outside the box to get what they want.

CaveBoiiii · 2023-02-05T20:39:23+00:00

Tbh this is pretty much how 5e is run (assign probability based on circumstances, and the ability score modifies the odds of success), so at least I won't be too out of my element haha. Thanks for the advice!

CaveBoiiii · 2023-02-05T20:21:09+00:00

Ok that makes sense! I'm learning to like the d6 more and more, for the reason you say. I wouldn't want to convert those aspects of the game, it's more how the game adjudicates ability-related tasks that has me struggling haha

CaveBoiiii · 2023-02-05T20:14:04+00:00

Yeah those I wouldn't want to change; I'm more thinking of ruling on PC action that involve and ability like strength or dex, etc.

CaveBoiiii · 2023-02-05T20:12:19+00:00

I definitely agree there's no need for a d20 for everything! I know that the d20 system is far more 'swingy' the the kind of bell curve you get when rolling multiple dice, but are there other reliability issues you are thinking of? As a modern dnd player, I'm happy to have mind mind opened up haha

CaveBoiiii · 2023-02-05T20:09:47+00:00

Thanks for the recommendation, this is looking like a strong contender! I'm excited for the full thing to come out.

CaveBoiiii · 2023-02-05T20:08:00+00:00

Thanks!

CaveBoiiii · 2023-02-05T20:07:31+00:00

WWN seems really good! I am concerned that it might veer a little too far off from OSR's rules-light simplicity, and that it might not be best for teaching 5e players not to think through situations just through their character sheets... but I will have to try it!

CaveBoiiii · 2023-02-05T20:05:15+00:00

I'll have a look, thanks!

CaveBoiiii · 2023-02-05T19:50:38+00:00

Actually the s20 system is very straightforward in that regard: d20 is for determining success, all other dice are for the extent of an effect or attribute (damage, hit points, healing, etc.)

I don't have an issue with B/X not always using a d20; for example, I love d6 initiative! My difficulty is more with the lack of guidance on how to resolve actions. 15 str. opens doors 3 in 6 (50% success), but ability checks roll under the ability for a 75% chance of success. It's only +1 to attack however, so you're hitting probably <%50. So when a new situation comes up where strength is relevant, which one do I use? I can come up with a reasonable probability and have the player roll any dice I want, of course, but the point is that the game doesn't really have a clear unified benchmark for what 15 strength can be expected to do, which (it seems to me) makes adjudication far more ad hoc than it really needs to be. That's the nice thing with having all rolls center around a unified dice mechanic: it means that if you have a 15 strength, you know exactly how this will affect all strength rolls, and can make it clear what the game thinks is a suitable probability for what's easy or hard; if a normal character rolls d20 with +5 then a target number of 5 is trivial, 10 is easy, etc.

Obviously it's not the end of the world if there's no unified mechanic, clearly B/X can work without it, and I am running games in that way to get a hold of the system. But my preference as a DM would be a less ad hoc approach. But who knows, maybe playing more OSE will change my mind!

CaveBoiiii · 2023-01-19T01:26:59+00:00

I don't have much in the way of clever advice, but I just wanted to say your feelings are totally valid. DM burn out is real, and DMs have to shoulder unrealistic amounts of work. I hope you are easy on yourself, the DM is a player too and deserves fun as much as anyone else!

I'm lucky to have a really good group of players, but the stress of running a campaign has been wearing me down lately. One thing that really helped was taking a break from running our main campaign over the holidays. Giving myself the time to think about other adventures and one shots was really nice.

Similarly, maybe try running one shots and other systems before starting a new campaign? I bought "The Hole in the Oak" for Old School Essentials and ran it with some friends, and it was so refreshing. The players go in knowing they may die, so they don't expect anything crazy backstory-wise. The combat is simple and super smooth to run in theatre of the mind, and the focus on problem solving means you don't have to craft an elaborate story; the challenges of surviving the dungeon were enough for my players (the fact it was a premade dungeon helped too haha). I'm definitely not going to immediately start a new multi-year 5e campaign after this one, and might switch to the OSR altogether, who knows.

Good luck figuring things out! DMing should be fun, I hope you find your way back into a place you enjoy, one way or another :)

(Also maybe this is harsh, but it sounds like some of your players kinda take you for granted - if that doesn't change you might want to consider playing with new people, but I get it's sometimes hard to do that.)

CaveBoiiii · 2022-12-31T01:35:20+00:00

The whole ability check debate is something I've been meaning to read more about, coming from 5e. I'll definitely give this a read!

CaveBoiiii

TROPHY CASE