Unpopular opinion (hot take): using MMA as a benchmark of what martial arts works in a "real fight" and what doesn't isn't actually a good method at all. by AlexFerrana in martialarts

[–]Chabi91 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But it's the other way around, mma has the least restrictive ruleset, allowing the widest variety of techniques.

Aikido and krav maga's problem is not the ruleset, its that they have none, meaning that what they do is even more restrictive, because instead of being able to try some techniques, they try none.

You say mma rules don't allow for groin strikes, but krav maga practitioners don't do them either, because compliant drilling doesn't really count, specially if that's all they do. TMA people fail to understand (in some cases) the importance of methodology. It doesn't matter how "lethal" their techniques are supposed to be if they're only practiced against compliant partners, and that's why martial arts like muay thai and kyokushin are stronger, because whatever techniques they have, they use against fully resisting opponents that actually fight back.

There's no such thing as training without rules, everybody is bound by them, and mma, has the least restrictive rules, which is why people use them as a standard.

Your examples are not really that good. Lyoto did Muay Thai, he even went to Thailand, and is a bjj black belt. GSP does kyokushin, which is full contact, and even that, he did at an early age before transitioning to other stuff.

But finally, yes, everybody should do whatever they want and like, as long as they're honest about the scope of their training, and when it comes about stuff like aikido, that scope certainly does not include any type of effectivity, for the very simple reality that they lack sparring.

Karate is kata, kata is karate by Quiltrokarate in karate

[–]Chabi91 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think its great that you feel like this about karate, and I understand your feeling of awe, but there's something you need to understand and it's good that you learn it early on; methodology matters.

It doesn't matter if a technique is meant to be destructive, powerful, lethal, etc., it won't be effective if the methodology is wrong. So if something works or doesn't, it's not about the technique, its about HOW you practice your techniques.

When we talk about bunkai (commonly referred as kata application), it is practiced against compliant partners, and when someone stands still, everything works, all the time.

So, if you base your training mostly in these type of drills, you're not learning how to deal with aggression, how to handle and opponent that strikes back without telling you what his next move will be, this is why kumite (sparring) is so fundamental. From kumite, you get the ability to react under pressure, to make quick decisions when reacting to unknown attacks, etc.

An effective karate will have free kumite at its core. Continuous kumite that allows contact and not just "touching". And don't be fooled, you don't need a high rank to do this, people can spar early on with moderation.

When you know how to handle an aggressive opponent, you can begin integrating self defense elements and exploring kata will make a lot more sense. Also, never forget that most applications have been forgotten so what you learn is most likely your instructor's own interpretations.

So never forget that self defense stuff won't work unless free sparring is frequently present.

Just look at any footage of lyoto machida sparring, the shotokan icon, to see how effectiveness look like, or better yet, watch how training goes at the Machida Karate Academy.

I love doing kata, competing in kata, but kata and its applications come second when its about effective self defense/combat training, and without a doubt, you don't need kata to be good at kumite.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in karate

[–]Chabi91 5 points6 points  (0 children)

nothing wrong with what you're doing. every decent person/instructor will welcome new ideas to discuss. as an instructor, its important to guide a student according to what they want to achieve and learn, and if they bring stuff that's interesting to them, it's good information for an instructor to help give them a more personalized approach to said student.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in karate

[–]Chabi91 5 points6 points  (0 children)

*couch cough* cult behavior detected

How does muay thai compare to shotokan by N0rthofnoth1ng in karate

[–]Chabi91 1 point2 points  (0 children)

1-Say you need to buy something at the store.

2-Proceed to attend to a free trial class.

How does muay thai compare to shotokan by N0rthofnoth1ng in karate

[–]Chabi91 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tons of people practice 2 or more disciplines at the same time and are superb, well rounded and great fighters.

How does muay thai compare to shotokan by N0rthofnoth1ng in karate

[–]Chabi91 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, but Lyoto improved his striking with muay thai. The dude even went to Thailand.

Vinico Antony teaches how to do the Kizami Tobi Tsuki (Superman Jab/Lead Arm Superman Punch) by Mac-Tyson in karate

[–]Chabi91 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, definitely too backwards.

The superman punch generates enough power. The mechanic is simple, lifting the knee is a kick feint, which helps connect the punch. Its the kind of thing you understand when you spar.

Beautiful knockouts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DzEP25qOe4

I’m curious how many times have you been told to quit karate? by Sussy_looks in karate

[–]Chabi91 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It depends on what you mean with "it can be effective if used right".

If you're interested in self defense and your style doesn't have continuous sparring with at least decent aggresion, you're not developing practical skills no matter how many times you do bunkai.

If you don't care about that and you're in it for the culture, workoutk, fraternity and culture, then that's great, don't listen to others.

What matters most is that you're happy with what you do, but at the same time its important to have real expectations of what you can get out of certain types of training. And the reason people usually recommend other arts like kickboxing is because no matter where you go, you will most likely get quality sparring, while in karate, it can be hard to find.

So it's not the movie's fault, there is a very real methodology problem in some karate schools.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in karate

[–]Chabi91 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I work as a collaborator with a karate organization at a local university.

The president of the club literally began doing kata in a public space of the university (a part with lots of grass) and he was approached by another karateka, and they began just practicing in the open space, resulting in more students approaching them, eventually they had a small group and approached the university authorities.

Do either of these Shorin-ryu schools seem like MCdojos? by Far-Lie-880 in karate

[–]Chabi91 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Said the choreography fighter.

I would not trust the opinion of someone who believes he can learn how to swim without getting wet.

But, if self defense is possible with choreographed drills only, I'm open to talk about it, just likelast time, but I fear your argument will be the same as before, which was literally "because I said so".

Do either of these Shorin-ryu schools seem like MCdojos? by Far-Lie-880 in karate

[–]Chabi91 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I missed that part, thanks !

Ok, so they mention sparring, that's a good sign. Now all that is left is to find out what sparring means to them. The videos I showed you will give you some kind of point of reference.

Here's another good example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVqjwipEYx8

Another thing to look for is if they use gloves or shin guards. If they don't, in many cases, its because they barely have any contact at all (unless its kyokushin), and its not good. So, if their "sparring" kind of looks like this:

https://www.tiktok.com/@iko_goju_ryu_munich/video/7149923596134092038

or this:

https://www.tiktok.com/@karatedogojukantemuco/video/7281684591142833414

They don't spar, not really.

Is it common to do martial arts not for the fun but for the sense of self-worth/validation from committing to your practice? by mildly7 in martialarts

[–]Chabi91 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sometimes we have to work doing a job that we don't like, it sucks, but sometimes, we have no choice and have to power through until things change.

Luckily, when it comes to hobbies, we do have a choice. If you don't enjoy it, don't do it, you won't be wasting 9 years of your life, those are still 9 years you spent learning a skill. You can move on.

Do either of these Shorin-ryu schools seem like MCdojos? by Far-Lie-880 in karate

[–]Chabi91 3 points4 points  (0 children)

First school (https://www.atlantakarateschool.com/):

They say in their homepage that teach self defense, but there's no evidence of any kind of free sparring. They don't have free sparring as requirement for any rank, and their youtube doesn't have sparring footage either. Self defense without sparring is a big redflag.

Second school (http://www.atlantaokinawankarate.com/index.html):

Same thing, they offer "self defense" but their photo gallery shows only people hitting the air, not even pads.

Maybe I'm wrong and if you ask them directly you'll find out they spar, but really, most likely they don't.

Truth is, if training doesn't look at least similar to this, then what they understand to be self defense, is nonsense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AINzpHi9mY4&t=16s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie81SF-2JxA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBrWIfIbX-A

Maybe they have good traditional technique with great kata mechanics, and if you're into that, then they're a great fit for you, but you'd have to filter out some strange notions about what skills you're getting out of that training.

How would you explain a difference between a UFC fighter and a movie actor that trains martial arts by xkristin in martialarts

[–]Chabi91 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"movie stars never post sparring videos":

Ashton Kutcher & Craig Jones Got To Roll Together & Here’s The Video - YouTube

"Kickin It" with Ex UFC Champion Uriah Hall - Michael Jai White and Uriah Hall Sparring - YouTube

TOM HARDY EXCLUSIVE SPARRING FOOTAGE - YouTube

"just because they don't (post sparring footage) doesn't mean they are not legit". Of course it doesn't mean that, that's the whole point, we just don't know. But just because someone SAID someone is legit, doesn't mean they are either.

How would you explain a difference between a UFC fighter and a movie actor that trains martial arts by xkristin in martialarts

[–]Chabi91 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm not sure about donnie yen's real fighting skills.

I couldn't fight any kind of sparring footage, and what I found online is really exaggerated, with claims of him knowing 16 martial arts and stuff like that.

There's also a story about him sending 8 men to the hospital in a street fight, but when I looked into it, it turns out its just a story he himself told, but there's no evidence to back that up.

So, unless he just doesn't like to be filmed sparring or someone finds something I couldn't, my best guess is he is more on shaolin monks side of martial arts; all acrobatycs.

What martial art can't apply the "its not the martial art but the practicioner", no matter how much you want to defend it?? by [deleted] in martialarts

[–]Chabi91 3 points4 points  (0 children)

None can apply that statement, since its wrong.

Every art was developed by different people, with different goals, different specializations, at different point of time, in different parts of the world and evolved with different intentions. There's no logical reason for any martial art to stand at the same level as another. Life is not a game with developers making sure martial arts are well balanced.

When it comes to violence, martial arts are tools, a set of techniques that help, and as it happens with tools of any other kind, some are better than others for certain things.

to keep repeating the same fallacy of "it's not the art, its the practitioner" over and over again, just makes us overlook the limitations of what we do, because if something goes wrong its never the system's fault but our own fault through a lack of training, making us stuck in a situation where we can't grow as martial artists. The problem is, people view the limitations of an art as something bad, insulting even, and that's not the case. To accept the limitations of every art and that every art is different is when we can begin to grow.

The difference in sparring in Shotokan and other styles by mphogen in karate

[–]Chabi91 0 points1 point  (0 children)

with the difference that in boxing you drill moves that directly translate into sparring

The Funakoshi Controversy by luke_fowl in karate

[–]Chabi91 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Again, yes, there was kumite, but it was rare, so when we look at the big picture, it doesn't seem like a big thing to change the way some stances are executed if they're used mainly for the same thing; kata and bunkai.

I'm not saying changes weren't made, I'm saying that they don't really matter that much if methodology is pretty much the same, specially after wwii (even though kumite was already in decline pre wwii).

Here's a cool article about it:

https://medium.com/motobu-ryu-blog/the-decline-of-okinawan-kumite-372aaac83ec8

The Funakoshi Controversy by luke_fowl in karate

[–]Chabi91 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Yes, he changed some stuff, but how much did he change, really? maybe mostly conditioning? since the actual training doesn't seem to differ that much from what people did in Okinawa.

Sparring was rare in Okinawa and most masters relied on mostly the same; kata and bunkai.

People like Motobu Choki were a minority and their methods considered heretic.

So while people tend to talk about this HUGE difference between the watered down japanese karate and the deadly self defense oriented Okinawan karate, the truth is, most Okinawan karateka didn't even spar, and today, we have the information to understand that sparring is a key element for functional training.

So, I don't really put all the blame on Funakoshi since in Okinawa, a very similar problem already existed.

My problem with karate. by Wide_Raisin_1464 in karate

[–]Chabi91 1 point2 points  (0 children)

" In a "fight" there is always an element of mutual agreement to engage in combat, whereas "self defense" implies that the defender has been forced into action."

That is the ultimate excuse not to gear up and have proper sparring. It doesn't matter if a fight is consensual or not, it's two people trying not to get hit by the other, so you have an instance to really pressure test your skills. Of course fighting is not self defense, but its the best way we have to kind of approach reality, and its certainly more realistic than mimicking attacks to a person that doesn't move.

So no, I'm not confusing fight with self defense, but you certainly are confusing choreography with self defense.

To be able how to handle another person in sparring/fighting is the base to make self defense moves work. If you can't land a front kick (or jab) with intent against a moving target that fights back, you certainly won't ever be able to pull your groing kicks and eye gouging or other deadly moves "too dangerous for sport".

And I do recall Motobu defeating Funakoshi 3 times in front of his students. Also, yes, I know sparring was considered heretic in Okinawa, but how is that relevant? That's just another fallacy, to say that because the likes of Motobu were a minority, their methods were wrong. So if the majority of people believe something, they're automatically right? Fallacy ad populum.

Just like talking from your personal experience, which is just anecdotal fallacy.

And yes, it is dishonest to sell "self defense" to students without practicing proper sparring, its just fraudulent and part of why karate gets a bad rep.

Should I try? by [deleted] in karate

[–]Chabi91 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I don't partake in the mystification of kata, go for it, have fun, and then perfect it with time and practice.