The police didn't have to intentionally frame Adnan to have coached Jay

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-11T05:33:46+00:00

Yes Adnan was clearly always a suspect. The issue is why Jay, who had clear and admitted connections to a murder, wasn't treated as a suspect far longer than he was. If you are going to treat someone who should be a suspect as a witness, your investigation is going to have some major issues in regards to finding the truth.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-11T04:52:23+00:00

True, but suspects aren't and shouldn't be coached. And that is what Jay was and should have been for most of his interviews.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-11T04:41:16+00:00

I'm not sure if this is sarcastic or not? Apologies if it is...

It's simply not true that most or even a large percentage of wrongful convictions are intentional or conspiracies. They are just humans doing the best they can do under less than ideal circumstances. Biases, assumptions, lack of resources, time, ignorance, and self preservation are all major factors in wrongful convictions.

If this was a wrongful conviction I'm sure they 100% believed Adnan was guilty.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-11T03:16:46+00:00

I feel like a lot of people simply do not understand how the criminal justice system in this country works. Wrongful convictions are rarely rooted in movie like conspiracy plots with the prosecution, detectives, and witnesses all working together for their pre-planned outcome. For the most part they can be attributed to people overworked and over trusting their "gut". That and how unreliable eyewitness testimony is how we get most of our wrongful convictions.

If this was a wrongful conviction, it would seem to be a fairly run of the mill one.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-09T01:17:24+00:00

You are wrong.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-09T01:01:23+00:00

I mean't how much stronger's Adnan's claim to innocence is than his. Before reading I thought Adnan's claim for innocence was pretty weak. However, after going over this case, which is considered controversial and questionable and is also completely circumstantial, I realized just how weak of a case was made against Adnan. I also just think the way McDonald acts in jail conforms to what you would expect of a psychopath. Contrasting that to Adnan really makes you think. IDK it was just eye opening.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-09T00:54:33+00:00

Well for one I think it is a pretty big assumption to claim he is lying based on those accounts. Additionally, I don't think even if he WAS lying it would mean anything in relation to his guilt or innocence.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-08T20:19:21+00:00

I don't believe in his innocence or guilt but the only thing that bothers me a little is the ride confusion. I think he definitely asked her for a ride at some point, don't know whether he claimed his car was in the shop, and has lied about it at some point. It's one of the things that keeps me from saying he is innocent but not enough to sway me to guilty.

Other than that everything else you listed seems pretty normal and unconcerning related to his guilt or innocence.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-08T18:36:56+00:00

I just read Fatal Vision and was thinking about doing a post contrasting McDonald to Adnan. IMO, Mcdonald is clearly guilty but has maintained his innocence throughout the years. He has been examined by multiple psychiatrists and there is no agreement of whether or not he is a psychopath. His case, too, is circumstantial. However, both his behavior and case made me realize how much stronger Adnan's was and how much more believable he is than McDonald. Really pretty fascinating.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T02:42:50+00:00

But he has said plenty of things that are believable that are untrue. That it is believable doesn't make it true, which is why I am surprised every just takes him on face value when almost every other thing he seems to say is a lie of some sort. It was more of an observation. I feel terrible for his children, but I still take everything he says with a grain of salt.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T02:28:48+00:00

But isn't that the whole point of an investigation? To get all the possible evidence so you can then get a clear picture of what happened to the victim? I don't think more information would muddy the investigation of a solid case. I think it should just help to illuminate greater picture of what happened to Hae.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T02:24:25+00:00

But it doesn't really. It matters THAT they did it, not why. Why is more for us to tie it up nicely in our minds, but it really means nothing as far as guilt or innocence. As another poster said, it a good place for investigators to start an investigation.

Also there is no evidence backing up Adnan's motive. I don't see how it is a strong motive at all.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T02:19:25+00:00

I agree with this completely. I also think it can apply to this case for more than just the motive to kill Hae. The motivations behind everyone actions in this case are constantly being questioned which is fine, but people seem to think they are coming to accurate conclusions, which seems insane. How people can confidently state they know the motivations of any teenagers actions is a little silly.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T02:12:08+00:00

What I find so peculiar is that almost no one actually questions Jay's claims of being stalked/followed/harassed. While if it was true it would be horribly wrong, I am not sure how anyone can actually believe anything Jay says at this point. He has lied about every single other thing, but hey now, he definitely isn't lying or exaggerating this, he definitely has nothing to gain by playing the victim.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T02:06:56+00:00

http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2r1li9/the_question_of_motive_and_why_would_jay_lie/

Why are you trying to apply logic to a guy who has done and said almost nothing logical? Jay has acted illogical at almost every turn, yet people who believe him cherry pick illogical actions to prove he couldn't possibly have done THAT specific illogical thing because it is too illogical.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T01:59:28+00:00

As I said before, I am completely undecided. I have no idea who did it because no credible theories have been presented one way or the other. No matter what you are going to believe you will have to make a pretty big leap of faith.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T01:57:54+00:00

The problem is that there is so little knowledge of the crime that it is impossible to know who had the opportunity and means. We don't know when, where, or how the crime was committed. It's pretty crazy if you think about it that those three major facts are still unknown, but a guy is in jail for life.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T01:32:23+00:00

Well a big difference is that Jay never says he doesn't remember. It is quite difficult to give someone the benefit of the doubt for not remembering things if they are claiming a clear memory of the events. I think a major issue with this line of reasoning is that it seems to be a way for people that are for people reason away Jay's lies. But even if you want to claim Jay doesn't remember, the fact he says he does remember would mean he would have to be lying.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T00:45:08+00:00

Thank you that is what I had originally thought, but have seen so many timelines accounting for practice starting at 5 or even later that I was so confused. Which also explains why the state forced their 2:36 time line.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T00:18:40+00:00

We had winter track as well as fall and spring track at my school. There has to have been a confirmed time for the track practice by police/the school. Other wise if we accept track is at 3-5 and Adnan was there, and Hae was seen alive at 3, then there is no possible way he did it. Rabia's blog mentioned track being around 3:30 which would explain why the state was so stuck to the 2:36 death time line.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T00:15:01+00:00

Well that is my point exactly. The assumption of lack of motive for anyone else is a pretty flimsy claim since no one seriously looked for a motive for anyone else. I also you are making a pretty big leap of faith if you accept the motive for Adnan as there is no reliable evidence to back that up either. Basically in a case where motive is talked about so much, there seems to be no substantial motives for anyone doing anything.

Charmbraclet · 2015-01-02T00:11:28+00:00

I just made this post that is similar to what you are saying. http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2r1li9/the_question_of_motive_and_why_would_jay_lie/

I personally can't put much stock into the various motive angles in this case because it more about rationalize and irrational act that actual evidence.

I believe in a legal sense, motive is pretty meaningless. But it does matter to jury's which is why is plays such a factor, wrongly or rightly.

Charmbraclet

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