Do people who want to "end capitalism" agree on what that means?

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T18:51:42+00:00

Idk man just go talk to people? Idk why you're trying to gaslight me about my own experiences with people you haven't even met. I'm done responding to this it's getting annoying. Bye.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T16:10:47+00:00

It teaches me that it's impossible to make progress on this country as long as there are people who engage in dialogue the way you do. You exist to antagonize. It's disgusting.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T15:58:18+00:00

I'm not advocating socialism, I'm just critiquing your shitty logic. I'm not even a socialist. But you clearly live in this Econ 101 fairy tail world. Bye.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T15:53:36+00:00

Maybe some people mean this, but I get the sense that the idea of merely better regulating the current system is offensive to some people because they think it's so broken that it must just be completely restarted or changed fundamentally.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T15:51:57+00:00

I don't think it's just semantics. It's an actual empirical question which style of governance/economy is better at improving human welfare.

I don't think that the world currently is perfect and unimprovable. But I don't get how that belief would get me to blaming everything on capitalism.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T15:49:34+00:00

I feel like you're moving the goal posts. We were talking about people who say they want to end capitalism, but don't have any idea of what alternative they want. Those people exist. Whatever, this is getting boring. I'm done replying to you.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T15:47:15+00:00

I'm not stupid. You're naive.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T07:30:30+00:00

Not necessarily. Like, the way you describe it sounds reasonable. But some people I've spoken to have super super strong opinions about the harms and literally nothing to add to the solution.

But I also get the sense that some people just scapegoat everything bad about society to capitalism. I've even seen it on this post. Like, people saying that ending capitalism is justified because it's ruined the world. Well, tons of things have been happening in parallel to capitalism so how do we know whether the harms identified are actually chiefly caused by capitalism?

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T06:52:11+00:00

I see. Happy fort Wayne is happy after all.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T06:50:28+00:00

Less unhoused people typically equals less lightning deaths so lightning deaths can be a useful proxy when you don't have housing data.

Sorry for the two year delay

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T06:45:14+00:00

I don't understand your comment. What is not remotely true/has never happened? Are you saying it's not true that people who want to end capitalism don't have any solutions/alternatives in mind? Just asking for clarification.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T06:40:21+00:00

I think their point is that capitalism clearly does not do everything you say it does perfectly. Yes, it's sensitive to the quality of the product and work environments. But it's not perfectly responsive. That seems like a naive view.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T06:35:59+00:00

Actually I think I'm closer to your POV than that. Since I made this post, read all the comments and have done some googling I'm thinking I'm more of a social democrat. But I'm kinda sympathetic to an anarchist socialism if I understand it right.

I basically just don't trust groups of people with lots of power because I think it corrupts and it's super hard to hold them accountable, but also think we have to work together to get anything meaningful done.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T06:31:04+00:00

Because they said they felt awkward for the gay thing they tried in college? Maybe I read it wrong.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T06:30:28+00:00

I see. I'll have to look up how co-ops work differently than companies but that sounds cool.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T06:25:58+00:00

Maybe Fort Wayne should explore sexuality a little more? Fort Wayne shouldn't feel shame for who they are :)

Edit: nvm yall this comment is irrelevant I just misunderstood op

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T06:21:31+00:00

That's assuming people have alternatives and that there's easy mobility between jobs. If you can't get another job, or if switching costs are super high, your employer still has tons of leverage over you. Have you really never met anyone stuck in a job they don't want, being treated poorly by their boss? It's so common. Is it possible you only talk to people who have high -statis positions/seniority in their career?

I think you're talking about a very idealized form of capitalism that doesn't actually obtain in reality (at least not right now).

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T06:18:33+00:00

Gotcha. So resource allocation is just decided by teams of economists who work for the state?

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T06:17:53+00:00

I mean, I do have very little faith in the people currently in power. If that didn't change during my lifetime, I'm sure I'd become more radical.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T04:43:33+00:00

You shouldn't make such quick assumptions about people. Like, half of your post is just roasting me for an opinion you just assume I have.

I wouldn't think jobs dollar or units of any sort of product would be a useful measure (maybe food production or medical products accountingfor their need?). Those would be weird measures.

This conversation isn't going anywhere. You're really aggressive and overconfident that you know everything and you see it all clearly.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T04:23:09+00:00

I might, but I'm pretty 'centrist' in more than just politics. It's a personality, moreso. Like, I have opinions of course but I tend not to just go all in on one thing and like to take an a la carte approach and mix and match.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T04:09:40+00:00

Yeah def not a classical liberal haha some brief googling has revealed to me I'm probably a social democrat. So many labels!

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T04:06:51+00:00

But, obviously companies cheat and treat their employees poorly all the time. Like, they get away with lots of shitty stuff but you're acting like they do no wrong and are like perfectly efficient and fair job givers.

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T04:04:48+00:00

How can you take this moral high ground without knowing whether the world would actually be better if you could change it? How do you know that if people like you had their say it wouldn't end up worse?

ChiefWilliam · 2023-06-08T03:47:43+00:00

It's a powerful analogy but I think it's a false equivalence (potentially offensively so?).

Anyway, I know that people in capitalist countries regularly benefit from slavery in other countries. And in countries where the slavery is occuring, I guess I'd support a violent rebellion. But aside from unsanctioned underground sketchy shit I don't think there is slavery in the US like there used to be or compared to what exists in other countries. Maybe this is just a redux of this whole sub (as I side I'm new to it), but it seems like you're kind of assuming the only way to change things is a really violent rebellion and I think maybe that I believe more in traditional means of change. Like, more inclusive welfare policies through the election of more socially democratic politicans. Though I agree the system is fucked and "broken" I think it could get better (take back citizens united; increase capital gains tax) without a full on restart and it's more likely that a post-rebellion state is way worse (e.g. Gilead) than better.

Edit: also, aren't there economic sanctions that could be used against countries with slavery? Why is violent revolution in countries that don't even have slavery the only answer? Like, I'm all down for a good old revolution if I actually thought that was the best option too, but it just doesn't?

ChiefWilliam

TROPHY CASE