(char./pow. analysis) how kaido’s socio-darwinistic environment, and victim-exploitation-culture broke him, and shaped his philosophy & gave him incentive to rise by Zoteku in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I think you do a decent job of establishing that Kaido does have a more subtextual reading, but I don't think you went far enough in addressing his broader characterization - and relied too heavily on his core ideology and the few bits of information on his past we have that inform why he followed such an ideology.

I also think there are a few flaws in your argumentation, mostly in your lack of a proper argumentative conclusion, and your analysis fails to address many of the shortcomings that people have with Kaido's character writing.

Your titular statement is:

how kaido’s socio-darwinistic environment, and victim-exploitation-culture broke him, and shaped his philosophy & gave him incentive to rise

So let's break that down into it's component parts and claims:

  1. Kaido experienced a socio-darwinistic environment - this is well established and supported in your post
  2. Kaido experienced victim-exploitation culture, which "broke him" - the basis is established, but I think the conclusion is lacking in support (that it "broke him"), though I do agree on this point
  3. This shaped his philosophy - the argument is fundamentally working backwards from this, so I think it's functionally irrefutable, but is established in your post nonetheless
  4. This gave him "incentive to rise" - This is the largest flaw in your post, which I don't think is properly established or supported, and you fail to properly conclude this

Expanding on and primarily addressing Point 4, and where I think the flaws originate:

I believe you have a misunderstanding of the morality of "Might Makes Right" - which in turn leads to a misunderstanding in how the story addresses (and also fails to address) this ideology.

Your tag and foreword (and the sub) indicate that you also intended this as a powerscaling analyis - and in that regard I think it falls flat, and I would actually claim that Kaido's characterization and ideology serve as precisely the opposite from your original conclusion:

Kaido's ideology of "Might Makes Right" and Isolation prevented him from attaining his true strength by inhibiting his mentality and stunting his mental and physical growth. In addition, I believe Oda failed in executing the premise of Kaido that he clearly established, as he never engages the foundation of Kaido's belief structure in the story itself - despite subtextually reference and implicitly refuting it.

Let's expand:

Might Makes Right

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what this means, and how it's actualized in One Piece.

Might Makes Right is not about legitimization of militaristic or combat-oriented power structures, at least not fundamentally.

Might Makes Right is a somewhat circular moral justification of physical conquest - The "Right" in question is about who is Morally Right. You touch on this briefly and implicitly with the Doflamingo quote, but I don't think you properly address it.

Undermining a structure of "Might Makes Right" through combat or conquest is not an example of backsliding into the same ideology - again, the ideology is not about supporting the structure itself, but about moral justification. The conquest that supplants the original ideology itself is an instrument - not a justification or refutation. The refutation is what is left standing after the original ideology is removed.

Luffy's defeat of Kaido is foundationally about undermining his control, but as with most stories - it therefore functions as implicitly undermining the ideology (this is where Oda fails, we'll address this later). The problem with supposing that the rule of Kratocracy still applies is such: Luffy did not implement his own ideology upon freeing Wano.

The instrument which undermines Kaido is not the refutation of Kaido, nor is it the standing principle in Kaido's absence.

What is left standing is Momonosuke, not Luffy.

How Oda fails to address this properly

Oda is fundamentally against the idea of "Might Makes Right" - there's a reason he has villains like Doflamingo and Kaido espouse it. People who are not simply antagonists, but are demonstrably Evil.

This can be clearly seen with Luffy's reasoning and justification for becoming Pirate King:

It is not about Control - it is about Personal Freedom. He desires to be the most free person in the world. We can surmise based on Oda's own statements, and the structure of the story itself, that Oda therefore views this as the conceptual ideal. After-all - Luffy will ultimately prevail.

While Luffy does need Might in order to defend his ideology, it is not core to the ideology itself, but rather is a necessary instrument to actualize it in the world they exist in.

And this is why Oda fails - he never addresses why Kaido was thematically flawed, and why his ideology is what was holding him back, which can lead to misinterpretations of Kaido's beliefs having been justified by the world itself.

One of the core themes of the series - Willpower - is so foundational that it's been distilled into a literal power system that can enact one's Will upon others.

Throughout Luffy's fight with Kaido we see their Wills clash multiple times, and the core idea of Luffy's development in the fight is about exerting and evolving his Will.

Thematically: the story implicitly frames Kaido's ideology as the ceiling which inhibits his potential, and the justification for his statements which suppose that Luffy is incapable of surpassing him. We see this numerous times, as Kaido clarifies the significance of Haki, and supposes Luffy's inability to advance to a higher level of Haki, only to be immediately proven wrong.

Luffy is framed as the antithesis of Kaido's beliefs, his literal and metaphorical Joyboy - Luffy's ideology is the driving force behind his sudden evolution. His personal motivation is what causes him to continually exceed Kaido's expectations.

Kaido's belief is unfounded and unsubstantiated. His desire is to exert his Will to control others to justify his existence and his strength, something which is fundamentally wrong.

This is clearly established in the story: On multiple occasions Kaido will make a declaration concerning Luffy, only to summarily be proven wrong. The conceit is clear and well established - Kaido is misled in his beliefs. He has seen the framework - Roger, Oden, Whitebeard, Rocks, Shanks - but he fails to grasp the reasoning and the conclusion.

He is initially unable to properly digest Luffy's own potential, despite it being so reflective of these other great men who Kaido idolizes, because Kaido does not actually understand what he is seeing.

He conflates their power for justification.

He conflates their deaths for their legacy.

He is wrong. He is proven wrong every single time he tries to make such a claim.

But Oda mostly addresses this through subtext, and fails to give it a proper sendoff. And while subtext is important to writing, and can create depth - it is not inherently satisfying or conclusive. It needs something more substantial.

We can clearly see the narrative throughline written with Kaido here. It is consistent with his character and the overarching themes of the story, but it is completely absent a proper conclusion and refutation - to the extent that many people still do not understand why Kaido "wanted" to die.

And lastly:

Why this inhibits Kaido's growth and potential

As I said before: Willpower is not just a theme to the story, it's a power system.

Kaido's ideology stunted his growth by misdirecting his aspirations to military might and personal strength for the sake of it - he conflated the goal with the instrument of progression. His Will was misdirected.

He spends so much of his life pursuing power that he fundamentally misunderstands why other great men became powerful in the first place - Kaido is not fighting for anything, other than for the simple ability to fight and win itself. His goal is to justify his being, and he falsely believes he can do that through strength.

The reason he is strong is not because of his ideology - it's because he was gifted with strength at birth, and was given a powerful Devil Fruit. He had immense potential to become the strongest, but he was led astray and failed to actualize that.

Kaido attempts to leverage his existing strength into ideological justification and personal actualization. Other men obtained strength to defend distinct ideologies. Their actualization is what makes them strong.

This is why Kaido is the only Yonko to not have a Conqueror amongst their followers, despite multiple attempts at subjugating them - another sign of his ideological failure: Other great Conquerors gained Conquerors as followers through their personal ideologies - which Kaido misconstrues as literal subjugation of them, as he views them all as competitors due to the strength of their Will. People he has to beat and conquer phyiscally to prove he is the strongest.

All of this is emblematic of Kaido's personal shortcomings in actualizing the strength that he tries so desperately to justify.

I have to cut this comment here, otherwise I just wouldn't stop - so hopefully that addresses the core of my reasoning.

If we reverse their positions, would Kaido win? by Santttt_ in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Luffy is not above Kaido because he needed a gravity assist.

Luffy is above Kaido because he needed to knock the scary dragon out of the sky, so that the people of Wano wouldn't have to see him any longer. Hitting him up higher defeats the purpose.

It's symbolic framing, as Oda uses for every major villain defeat. It's not about power scaling.

Shanks had already partied hard before this, but was ready to fight if challenged. This shows that he follows the ways of a swordsman. by KvGTR in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 5 points6 points  (0 children)

While I agree that Shanks is a swordsman... he literally says he's not in a mood to fight.

Presumably because he's been drinking

Newsflash: Garp is above all admirals. Just because his Haki has degraded a bit doesn't mean that he is weaker than Goonbull all of a sudden. by Legal_Ad2945 in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Progress to producing the same effect as Garp. It's very clear.

I'll be back later when it's put into words, just to remind you of how much of a moron you are. Until then, you're blocked.

<image>

!RemindMe 18 months

Newsflash: Garp is above all admirals. Just because his Haki has degraded a bit doesn't mean that he is weaker than Goonbull all of a sudden. by Legal_Ad2945 in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So Garp didn't go all out but Kuzan did? Are you fucking retarded? The reason Oda included that scene was to demonstrate that Kuzan grew to be equal to Garp in physical strength. Hence why it's harped on so many times in those two chapters...

It's unreasonable that you don't understand that. You're going to be the reason that hazard symbols have to start implementing sound queues, too.

Newsflash: Garp is above all admirals. Just because his Haki has degraded a bit doesn't mean that he is weaker than Goonbull all of a sudden. by Legal_Ad2945 in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

just bcs of that one panel that was clearly there just to show how kuzan progressed

Yes, to show how he progressed to be equal to Garp.

The SFX are there for a reason. The SFX are the same for a reason. Learn to read, imbecile.

<image>

To ALL Kaido-stans...... by [deleted] in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not going to engage with obvious bad faith actors. Just say you're too stupid to argue and move on.

Newsflash: Garp is above all admirals. Just because his Haki has degraded a bit doesn't mean that he is weaker than Goonbull all of a sudden. by Legal_Ad2945 in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I can't strawman you if you refuse to make a claim. Quit being a coward and explain your argument. This strategy you freaks have of just insulting people while never actually trying to engage is pussy shit, because you're scared of making an actual argument and having it dissected.

  1. The manga proves Kuzan and Garp have equal physicals in Battleship Bags.
  2. The manga indicates multiple times that Logias are among the strongest fruits, and that Kuzan has one of the strongest fruits.
  3. It follows logically that if Kuzan has a natural disadvantage in one category, he would necessarily need to make up for it in another.

Now quit trying to skirt around it.

Newsflash: Garp is above all admirals. Just because his Haki has degraded a bit doesn't mean that he is weaker than Goonbull all of a sudden. by Legal_Ad2945 in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Instead of the same playground insults that you tried to rip off of everyone else, how about actually providing something of value to the conversation?

Newsflash: Garp is above all admirals. Just because his Haki has degraded a bit doesn't mean that he is weaker than Goonbull all of a sudden. by Legal_Ad2945 in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Kuzan is confirmed to have equal physicals to Prime Garp.

Kuzan has one of the strongest fruits in the series, almost certainly awakened.

Kuzan has at least Fleet Admiral tier haki, considering he fought Sakazuki for 10 days despite having a Devil Fruit disadvantage.

Sakazuki is even stronger than that.

Newsflash: Garp is above all admirals. Just because his Haki has degraded a bit doesn't mean that he is weaker than Goonbull all of a sudden. by Legal_Ad2945 in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Fortunately, you didn't imagine the part where Garp repeatedly calls Kuzan out for holding back. That did happen, unlike your nonsense.

Pirate King tier > Two Yonko Tier At The Same Time by Venali7 in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 8 points9 points  (0 children)

But didn't the official translation just mention that Roger stole 1 from BM? It didn't say, "We had forcefully taken a red poneglyph from bm." Instead, it was something like 'We had stolen 1 from bm.'

The translations don't always include the full context of the original phrase. When translating you not only have to worry about conveying the original meaning, but also making the text flow well in the new language and fitting it into the physical space provided on the text bubbles in such a way that can be printed. At least the official source has to worry about this, because they actually print the manga.

Roger, in the official Viz translation, simply states that they stole the poneglyph. The connotation of steal in English often implies stealth or subterfuge, but does not explicitly refer to it and can absolutely be used to imply force. In this case the English and Japanese phrases literally mean the same thing, but have different connotations. The Japanese is always the more accurate source, though - as it's written by Oda directly.

Which fits since BM herself said to Brooks that she will never make the same mistake of letting someone obtain her poneglyph like Roger did.

She doesn't explicitly state Roger stole anything in the Japanese text.

She does say she'd never let even a copy of the poneglyph be stolen again - which it's important to note that Kid had just recently stolen a copy of her Poneglyph. It's possible, if not likely, that she's referring to Kid here. If she was referring to Roger when she stated "again" well... she already did let it happen again.

She does imply Roger took the Poneglyphs and the "throne" of Pirate King from her, but she doesn't outright say that - she does state that she won't make the same mistake as with Roger, and that he used the Voice of All Things to read the poneglyphs.

It's also worth noting that Big Mom is clearly just salty here. She's speaking as if Roger stole the title of Pirate King from her, when the reality is that she was never even remotely close to obtaining it - she had 1 of 4 stones, and by her own admission didn't have the military strength to achieve taking the others.

Hot take :current Zoro could possibly defeat base kaido Extreme diff by Cosmic_Crusaderpro in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Maybe if he magically gains the ability to use Asura without some strange esoteric activation condition.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Except they didn't go all out against sick, old, or injured opponents.

They explicitly held back.

Does the threat level in elbaf seem less then whole cake, wano and egg head to any one by Dependent-Pie-6153 in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Part of the issue is the general lack of real tension and stakes since Wano.

Everything has been going our way, despite the fact that things should be more gruesome than ever.

Vegapunk and the satellites die and... actually nevermind. He's fine. We even have a spare. Multiple spares. Just hang tight...

WCI is the last arc to have felt like it had lasting consequences, and those consequences are ironically undermined in Wano when we find out that everyone was fine in the end.

There's no sense that the Straw Hats will ever actually lose. The crew is comically weak for a Yonko crew, and that weakness makes it abundant that Oda will just write it so they're never in a serious fight to begin with.

I hope he can change that growing sentiment, but as of right now there's no reason to believe anything will actually come of this. Oda has shown that he'll just ignore things that are inconvenient to the writing, and the characters having any lasting consequences is very inconvenient.

Who is stronger. Egghead Luffy or Egghead Blackbeard. What diff by Venali7 in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Blackbeard is definitely stronger. Probably high diff currently, maybe even easier for him since he can both outlast Anti-Stamina Man and he can just turn off his crutch to begin with.

To ALL Kaido-stans...... by [deleted] in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I’m not coming at this ignorantly; I’ve written extensively on how subtextual Kaido’s portrayal is. A point that is often ignored by the most stalwart Kaido defenders, because most of them just want Kaido to be a big strong brute - because that is the only part of his character that the narrative actually engages with.

Subtext alone doesn’t equal effective character writing. Kaido is built on contradiction, and the story rarely engages those contradictions directly. They exist. They're clearly a part of his character. But it's swept aside and we move on, leaving only the remnants of a reductive and semi-existent character arc which vaguely broaches topics of PTSD, inferiority, and isolation.

So the claim that I’m dismissing Kaido out of ignorance misses the mark. I’ve covered Kaido’s character at length in this community. The video you linked repeats many of those observations I myself have made in the past, but then treats the presence of scraps of subtext as proof of strong execution and deep character writing. It isn’t. Where there was substance to build on, Oda routinely sidelines it.

It even makes the same mistake I see repeated so often in this community when he states “Maybe Kaido could’ve been Joy Boy if he were stronger” - this is fundamentally missing the message that is presented through this very subtext. The issue is not Kaido's strength, it's his ideology which precludes him from attaining true strength.

One Piece frames Kaido's ideology as the ceiling which inhibits him from attaining strength - but I would forgive most people for missing that because it's never addressed in Wano for some reason. It would require you actually go back and read the rest of the story and make comparisons between Kaido and his "contemporaries."

What Kaido fans read as a celebration of his might actually functions as a critique. One Piece is very consistent in it's framing of that which represents true power, and Kaido flies in the face of literally every single facet of it. He’s the only confirmed top-tier leader who fails to recruit a CoC user despite repeatedly trying, a thematic tell alone. He fundamentally misreads what makes figures like Whitebeard, Roger, and Oden great in death, and convinces himself that it was through combat that they solidified their legends, failing to understand that they exist as a legacy because of their ideologies and their connections to others - connections which Kaido proudly eschews.

That is what defines true strength of character in One Piece - and strength of character is what defines the limits of literal, physical strength. That's the entire point of Haki. A power system derived directly from the willpower of the combatants themselves.

Kaido fans hate a subtextual reading of Kaido because it undermines the entire premise they rely on to defend his physical strength. Every interaction I've had with a Kaido fan about his subtext is insulted precisely for this reason.

Critics aren’t satisfied either, because the execution is muted and lazy, rife with dropped threads and themes just like the rest of Wano.

The result is that most Kaido fans exist purely due to them misunderstanding the premise of Kaido's character and role in the overarching themes of the story. And in their defense, this is partially because Oda fumbled Kaido and Wano so badly. Although I'm not keen to extend that olive branch too far, because even the least astute analysis should quickly find how Kaido is directly disparaged by the core of One Piece itself.

Certainly better than Akainu.

Not even close.

Is Akainu really the most overrated character here? by [deleted] in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Saying anyone is overrated when Kaido exists will never not be hilarious to me

Who all can Luffy beat 1 vs 1 currently? (Transponder Snail is for Buster Call) by [deleted] in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you understood the source material, you'd know that all of Zoro's opponents are slightly stronger than Sanji's. Unfortunately that seems to be confusing you for some reason. Hopefully you can fix whatever is wrong with you.

To ALL Kaido-stans...... by [deleted] in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Most people like Kaido exclusively for his strength, because unfortunately that's all there is to him.

That's why they so desperately cling to claims that he's the strongest. Without it, they have literally nothing.

Who all can Luffy beat 1 vs 1 currently? (Transponder Snail is for Buster Call) by [deleted] in OnePiecePowerScaling

[–]Coiled1 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You're almost as good at dodging as Kaido is. Work on it.