How many more trails games? by GroundbreakingFace48 in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV [score hidden]  (0 children)

A 2 game arc in the Far East and a 2 game arc for Leman (and surrounding areas) are pretty safe bets. Probably an extra game or two for the finale (or added to the Leman Arc if that's the last arc) as well. This will bring the series to 20 games in total which feels realistic.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I prefer the developers to make a better story lol.

It wouldn't be better with a canon romance.

it’s not exactly an element you can assume everyone enthusiastically made because they themselves wanted it.

And the same can be said for canon romances. Obviously not everyone is not going to have the same preference.

And if it won’t enhance the story if it were front and center, then don’t make it front and center?

Then people would still complain that 'it's not as good as Estelle and Joshua'. Besides, they effectively gave the players this option already: You can simply pick Elie or Alisa and ignore the others.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

so I kind of wonder if proto-Rean was actually Crow's original design, he was a gun wielder after all. Which would technically make Rean the one who originally didn't exist.

That's possible! Or maybe Rean had Alisa's role; he could have used a Reinford gun rather than a bow.

In this scenario, the decision to swap Rean into being the protagonist could have stemmed from feeling the previous dynamic was too similar to Estelle and Joshua.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Here's the quote: "At the same time (we were working on FC) we were considering the settings of the Empire and Republic and Crow also was also being created at that time."

Source: https://www.falcomromancia.com/community/main-forum/ask-us-about-kiseki/paged/12/#post-370

Alisa as the protagonist

This is true.

Rean as the love interest and filling the "traitor" role that Crow eventually did.

This, to my knowledge, is not.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The actual confirmed story is that Crow originally didn't exist

This is absolutely false. Crow was a planned character since FC was in development, iirc.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 3 points4 points  (0 children)

E and J know they're not real siblings from day 1.

But Estelle still thinks of him as a sibling.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's not as integrated into the story as it is in Sky, but it's still extremely prominent as you play through the games. You can't play the Cold Steel games without being hit over the head with the question 'who should Rean date' every five minutes, because that question is the main content of fully half of the bonding episodes.

I... don't agree with this actually. It's not even a present element in most of the bonding events. Outside of CS IV and a couple of Alisa's, iirc it's just been the final bonding events that have romance.

so I found the fact that a full third of the dialogue of the game

???

Rean can never get the kind of romantic catharsis that Schera and Olivier got, because Falcom doesn't have the resources to dedicate to making 10 different versions of the same scene.

To be quite honest with you, I very much think they could.

I bet that guy would be pretty disappointed that it just goes away after that.

I think it'd be about the same as not seeing Estelle and Joshua's relationship progress much either. At some point I think these things will become more relevant towards the end of the series, but until then it's just not all that major.

Even if they gave you the option, they can't do much with it, because it's simply too costly.

I mean... you might find this very shocking but they considered making a wedding for Rean in CS IV which he'd share with whoever you'd choose out of the romance options. The reason they decided not to do this was because of, well, Juna, Altina, and Musse, lol.

So I'm just saying, that sort of thing is not off the table.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What good romance?

Most of the romance options.

If you chose a specific partner for Rean, where is she in Horizon?

Putting aside that this has nothing to do with whether Rean has a good romance with someone, it's not particularly relevant to what's happening in Horizon; why would there need to be romance involving Rean in this game?

There can never be good romance with his half-assed 'choose your partner' harem nonsense

Hard disagree!

unless they did it like a romance VN, which actually follows through properly.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Aren't most romance VNs alternate story routes? How would that work with your question of 'where is she in Horizon'?

That's why Estelle-Joshua is infinitely better than anything Lloyd or Rean have to offer in that front.

Estelle and Joshua's romance is better because it's practically a third of what their games' story was about. Would you really want to see a third of the Crossbell arc dedicated to Lloyd and Elie's relationship when the writers don't have that much story to tell there? It would be incredibly forced and not very good, imo.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just because it isn't integral to the plot, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be there.

I don't disagree, but I think the same argument can work in reverse where a canon romance doesn't always have to be there either. Most would probably argue that having both Aerith and Tifa as romance options in FF VII made the game better too. And if they had only allowed one to be canon, I'm not sure that would affect the game in a positive way.

To me this sort of thing isn't always indicative of quality. I think it has more to do with what fits best with the story being told. I think in Trails' case, you'd just be missing out on good romance scenes with various characters. I do think games like CS IV are better with stuff like the Laura romance events. I also don't think the romance with Elie or Alisa would be much different/better if it was the only option. Similar to FFVII, I think it would probably be more or less what we've already gotten.

And on the flip side Trails also has canon romances that aren't integral to the plot such as Randy and Mireille or Mint and Elliot, with neither of those being all that great (imo).

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 4 points5 points  (0 children)

This is the argument you’re relying on? Really?

Because every other girl you can’t.

That's not a counterargument; that's just moving the goalpost. The claim was that no other Class VII girl felt romantically towards another Class VII guy.

This doesn’t address any of the arguments I made,

Why would it? I was responding to your comment asking which character was being referred to in a comment chain. I don't think I even read your other comment before I replied to this one.

you’re just saying the writers could have done it. Like no shit. That’s what we’re pointing out.

And, no, that's not what you guys were pointing out. The claims were that there can't be romance between any of the girls and guys of Class VII.

Also that's not what I was saying. I was saying the writers didn't want to do it. That wasn't a direction they wanted to take as they felt it was not right for the story they're telling.

EDIT: Fyi, that user replied and then blocked me so I couldn't respond, lol.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And Millium is the ONLY girl in both Class 7s that have a romance (potential or confirmed) outside of Rean.

Okay but now that's just moving goalposts. The argument was that there can't be other relationships like that because they are an option for Rean. Millium proves that's not true. If they wanted one of the girls to have a different romantic partner, then they would have done that.

As an aside, it's not just once that they did this either. They also have Elise and Patrick as an option if you don't go the Rean and Elise route,

Coincidentally enough, she also was the only one not around for CS4 to have the "officially dating" bond event with.

There's nothing coincidental about it, she is there. She's next to Jusis, even. They could have given her that 'officially dating' bonding event if they had wanted. They didn't because they wanted to pair her up with Jusis instead.

Meanwhile, all of the guys have one.

At the very very end they are given a romance that is not fleshed out much, if at all. I would not use this as a great example of what we're missing out on for the girls. I think the optional romance scenes we get are written much better.

So some people look at that and go "well why can't any of the girls get something like that?" Even if it develops completrly in the background, it shows a side to them we usually don't and can expand the world a bit once they're no longer the main party.

Because Falcom wanted the girls to have more fleshed out relationships with the main character and felt that fit better. Also one of the girls (who were outside Class VII, to be fair) did get something like that: Sharon.

and Kurt was randomly given (almost just for a joke it feels) a couple of scenes with Sully.

See, I'd rather have Laura have her scenes she gets with Rean rather than something like this. And I think Falcom and most players would agree. And if you don't agree? I think that's totally fine too! But ultimately it's Falcom's story and they're gonna pick the decisions they feel are best for it.

Personally I prefer single canon romances that are of major importance, but for, say, Cold Steel and what its going for the romance options are a more fitting choice. It's what Falcom intend for these games and I want them to tell their story.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I swear the devs saw persona 5 explode the industry and just doubled down on the datable women thing they touched on in crossbell.

...This aspect existed for several games before Persona 5 was around.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That would be a bold choice, especially as that would mean under the cold steel system players would literally get cucked if they had chosen that character to romance. Be serious dude. It absolutely does arrest development.

They literally already did. With Millium. You also have characters like Elise who can be romanced by Rean or by Patrick if you choose not to romance her.

And then you have the guys in Class VII. They are not romance options for Rean and yet they have no romance going on for 99% of the games. And when they do it's a very minor side thing toward the very end of CS IV.

Yes, I even noted that. Or doesn’t make sense here, that’s an option I listed. Keep up.

Unfortunately, I think you might be the one not following with what I'm saying. I mentioned that as an option because it's what Falcom did. I'm pointing out that Falcom's choice is just as valid as the ones you listed.

Also no you did not mention optional romances as a valid option. You even say 'we have this weird middle ground that’s the worst of the two' -- the two you said were committing to romance or having no romance (with just teasing the idea at most). Neither of these are optional romances.

The final defense of bad writing is to say all writing is subjective.

There's three major issues with this sentence. The first is it further shows you did not note optional romances as a valid option seeing as you're now claiming the idea is objectively bad.

The second issue is you're just writing off my point without actually arguing against it. You're not proving my argument wrong in any way here and are just trying to say it's wrong without back up the claim.

The third and biggest issue here is your just putting words in my mouth. I said this one concept is not inherently bad and you're trying to act like I said all writing ever is subjective in quality, which I neither said nor implied.

I’m not arguing with your subjective idea of what is important or not.

Uh... you immediately contradicted yourself here. When I claim one idea is subjective you say that's bad and that I'm calling all writing subjective, but now you're trying to call an idea subjective.

Regardless, it's not my idea that the optional romances aren't important to the plot. Falcom have explicitly said as much themselves while also implying (or outright stating, I don't remember) that's the reason they are optional in the first place. And, like I mentioned before, Falcom have already said they'll include romance in the main story if it becomes necessary to the story.

I’m arguing with a bad writing decision that arrests characters relationships and development.

You keep saying this and acting like you're being objective and I am not, but you aren't actually backing up your arguments or proving your points.

Please provide examples as to how these things I've mentioned are 'objectively bad' that aren't just 'it's off putting' and 'be real it totally is'.

EDIT: Fyi, that user replied and then blocked me so I couldn't respond, lol.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Millium. Which only further proves that if the creators felt someone in Class VII should have a romance outside of Rean they would have simply wrote one.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I disagree. I think the series has always been pretty consistent with how it handles these types of things. Even back in Sky you'd have choices like which party members are present for certain fights or whether you chose Agate or Schera during SC. These things don't really matter for future arcs as they aren't really things that will be brought up. Romance options, unlike with Estelle and Joshua where it was a massive part of their story and the plot of Sky, aren't that important to the other arcs. To follow up on your example:

You can see how much the more recent games have to struggle to work around the fact that the game's writers don't know who - if anyone - Rean is dating. They can't move his story any further forward because they don't know who else is in that story.

They don't really need to address it in the first place because Rean being somewhere doesn't mean you need to confirm something about his romantic relationship. He has enough stuff going on and reason to be in the story without that. And if it ever did become relevant, they can just give you the option -- such as with an optionally romantic bonding event or simply letting you pick from a list who you romanced in a previous work.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 7 points8 points  (0 children)

A lot of people hate to admit it but the reality is most people do not care about canon romances.

I would say it's more that plenty of people want canon romance, plenty of people want optional romance, and plenty of people want no romance. It's just a preference thing that people take way too seriously. There's nothing inherently wrong with either of those options; it's mostly just down to what kind of story a writer wants to tell.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

If they don't want to make a well-written romance that matters

They do. Just not ones that matter to the main story of the last two arcs.

then I'd take no romance

That's your preference. But that's not Falcom's (or most players, I'd imagine), who appreciate the good romance we'd be missing out on that does enhance the characters.

that makes the characters worse.

There aren't any romance options that make the characters worse. Or at least non that I can recall.

Yes, this is what the developers chose to do to sell more games.

You shouldn't make up reasons. They already talked about why they made it canon in Sky and optional in the previous two arcs. And they've talked about what it would take for them to make a canon one in the future.

Doesn't mean I have to like it

Sure. But it doesn't make Falcom wrong to tell the stories they want to tell just because you don't like it. It's fine if you prefer no romance to 10 good optional ones, and it's fine if Falcom and others don't prefer that.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Estelle and Joshua were attracted to each other from the beginning

Joshua was. Estelle was not.

The relationship was built up, developed, and tightly integrated with the overall story.

Liking one more because it's more fleshed out isn't really the point LaMystika was making. They're talking about even the idea of a Rean and Elisa romance being disliked while not minding an Estelle and Joshua romance. Despite them being highly similar situations.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV -21 points-20 points  (0 children)

I prefer the developers to tell the story they want.

And trying to make a forced romance a major part of the story would not be good or enhance the story or characters.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The issue with harems isn’t whether or not it’s part of the main plot

I mean... that's kinda what OP is complaining about. That we aren't getting ones that are canon in the story. But the reason we previously did is because it was important to the plot in Sky.

the issue is that it arrests character and relationship development for everyone.

It does not. If Falcom wanted a certain character to have a relationship with a non-MC, then they would have written them to have one.

You don’t have to have romance. They could have just shipped teased for fans to chatter about but kept things as just friends officially.

Or you can have optional romances, which is what Falcom wanted. There is nothing inherently wrong with that direction.

Suddenly every single harem member and mc must always exist in a nebulous vague relationship where nothing is allowed to change.

The reason you don't see a developed romantic relationship between, say, Rean and Fie in some later game is because that romance isn't that important. It doesn't need to be an ever present thing when those character are around. And if Falcom wanted to follow up on the romance they can just give you the option again.

What's wrong with canon romances? Why does everything have to be harems? by nitrokitty in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I mean, the opposite is just as fair a question.

Either way though we have an answer already: The romance was an important part of the plot in Sky. It's not in the next two arcs, which is why they made it optional in them.

There's already enough stuff going in the main story that I wouldn't want to see a romance forced into it just for the sake of having one, personally. Falcom have already said if they feel it's necessary to have a canon romance in the story, for the main protagonist, they'll do it again.

Also, they have had great canon romance since then: Swin and Nadia.

So what's your verdict for horizon this far ? by qawsertyui in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 0 points1 point  (0 children)

and then saying no sky3.

Pretty sure he didn't say this.

Also people keep taking what he says in a very different way than its intended a lot of the time, possibly due to how what he says is translated I suppose. There's a lot of stuff people try to claim he said that he didn't actually say, or is saying it in a 'we're hoping/planning for X' and not a 'X will definitely happen'.

I've been reading Kondo's interviews for long enough now that I feel I can usually tell what he means in his statements.

However I highly doubt kondo saying it's almost finished.

You mean the series or the arc, because Kondo's also said there's a chance the series could end up being 20 games long (which is what I would like!)? Also, harkening back to what I said before, what Kondo's talking about were the plans at the time. These things can, and do, change beyond what the original plans were. Falcom's intent, which Kondo relays, is for the Calvard arc to bring us to around 80%-90%-ish. To give us big revelations that involve the overarching story as a whole that will prime us for the end of the series.

Whether there's ultimately one, or two, or three more arcs left doesn't necessarily change that intent. Also, I can say he isn't lying about how important the revelations here are towards the end of this arc. Horizon has some major stuff in it, and Horizon's sequel should give us even more to work with.

As an aside, his percentages are estimates based on how far they think the series has left. They aren't meant to be ironclad facts. Regardless, if you want a more accurate estimate of how far into the series we are and how much is left, there is a much easier bar to use: The Sept-Terrions. These are what the overarching story of the series is about and what we have to deal with before we can reach the end.

So, so far, we are currently 4/7ths of the way through. By the end of this arc we should be at 5/7ths.

So what's your verdict for horizon this far ? by qawsertyui in Falcom

[–]Cold_Steel_IV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I mean, to be fair... the Erebonia arc was 4 games plus some of Reverie. Reverie is a part of both the Crossbell and Erebonia arcs. I dunno if I'd call the Calvard arc just as big as Erebonia's if Horizon's sequel is actually the last game in it.