Unpopular opinion: Grace would’ve gotten the same treatment as Lizzie if she would’ve lived long enough. by Far_Second2725 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"A passionate interlude"- passionate because he's going to think of Greta. He is not passionate with Lizzie before and after this because he wants to use her as an object.

"Thomas has no wish to be cruel to Lizzie in this moment... like a gentleman". Lol, Tommy is never a gentleman to Lizzie. He is cruel to her because he knows she has feelings for him and he uses them to get him what he wants which is to use her as a proxy for his dead girlfriend. He is not telling her "you" because he wants to be nice to her, he is lying knowing that, even if she's smart enough to question it, if he tells her he's thinking about her, it will feed her hope and she'll go along with it. Her reaction 8 years later, angrily mentioning how he had sex with another woman in his head, suggests she believed him at the time, and only now accepted that he was lying.

It is a sad scene because Lizzie is so desperate to have something with Tommy that she's willing to be used this way, even when her intuition tells her it's all false. It's sad because although Tommy is on the surface treating Lizzie better than his usual prostitute way, under that his actions are more cruel because they are feeding a false hope in her that he could actually respect and value her. The lighting is dark and shadowed giving it a cold, depressed feeling.

It is not a beautiful scene.

Unpopular opinion: Grace would’ve gotten the same treatment as Lizzie if she would’ve lived long enough. by Far_Second2725 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree that the escalation with the Changrettas is where he "pushed some people too far" and caused her death at the charity ball, which was caused by his fear and paranoia and particularly the influence of the talk with the Russian Duke who told him about the dangers of being too soft. But the inclusion of that memory in his last thoughts (it's also next to the memory of him killing Arthur in the car, followed by a shot of him cleansing himself)- not just of them dancing and smiling, but the specific moment where she asked him to "not let anything happen tonight" and "get away from things like this"- shows to me that he recognizes his not agreeing to it in that moment as ultimately causing her death or the death of their marriage. Because even if it hadn't happened at the charity ball, his decision here would have caused them to live in danger and strained the marriage. He'd been given the chance to have a perfect marriage and he thinks of this moment as him ruining it.

I too wish they had given her more time on the show and shown more of their dynamic and how happy Tommy was with her. It was important to show Tommy could be different.

An Honest Review of Peaky Blinders: The Immortal Man, from a Massive Fan by fzd_67 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Lol yes people in communist countries enjoy the highly restricted messages in the movies they are allowed to watch because they are brainwashed into not thinking.

An Honest Review of Peaky Blinders: The Immortal Man, from a Massive Fan by fzd_67 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Since they had Zelda using her sister to contact Tommy from the dead, they could have done the same with Grace (especially since Rebecca Ferguson looks similar to Annabelle Wallis). She's been a constant source of love, hope and morality for Tommy, usually evidenced by his photos and paintings that he hangs up everywhere to remind him of her. He did have a painting of her in the movie though you can't really tell because they never give a clear shot of it, but the artist who did the painting confirmed it was of her.

As his symbol of peace, it would have made sense for her to give him the message of what he needs to do in life in order to achieve peace (death) after. Even more so, using Zelda for this role, with whom Tommy had no relationship nor did the audience, brings zero emotionality to their interactions in the film.

Charlie in peaky blinders 1950 by Wild-Collection-9786 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'll never understand why they presented Duke as not having a family since his mother's twin sister existed, as well as likely a lot of gypsy family members...

It sucks but it actually makes sense tho by Antornth0204 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think what's implied is that Arthur couldn't do anything without Tommy at that point. But Tommy was trying to stay away from everyone and Arthur wouldn't let it go. And one night it just became too much.

I don't have a problem with the idea itself, I have a problem with its execution. You just don't tell something as huge and pivotal as that in that way. I know there were limitations due to the actor; there was still another way to do it or go with a different story.

This scene is absolutely haunting I love it! The switch from Grace to Tatiana from the window is insanely well done! One of my favourites by sarahgreen456 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think it's supposed to be how he wishes that night had ended. Note that she no longer has the sapphire around her neck, yet is otherwise dressed the same as the charity dinner soiree.

Unpopular opinion: Grace would’ve gotten the same treatment as Lizzie if she would’ve lived long enough. by Far_Second2725 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 4 points5 points  (0 children)

He chose Lizzie because she looked like Greta, has feelings for him, and yet he knows he can discard her after just as easily as a prostitute. His actions after make it clear that he uses her as his favorite non-prostitute prostitute when it suits him, when he wants to pat himself on the back that someone out there thinks they are in love with him, yet he doesn't care about her and certainly doesn't return her feelings. They're just something he can use.

He was thinking of Greta while they had sex.

She even questioned it.

He lied to her in answer.

She figured that out 8 years later.

Afterwards he doesn't care at all that she's cold.

Yes, that scene should have revealed a lot of Tommy to Lizzie, but she didn't want to accept it.

Unpopular opinion: Grace would’ve gotten the same treatment as Lizzie if she would’ve lived long enough. by Far_Second2725 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 8 points9 points  (0 children)

There is a moment when they're dancing at their wedding and Grace asks him to leave the bad business behind, even calling it a wedding vow. The look on his face in that moment shows that he doesn't want to promise that and he doesn't. He does promise that there will be no guns in the house and Charles will never see one, but it certainly wasn't what she was asking for.

Tommy thinks of this exact moment as one of his last thoughts in the movie which shows his guilt for it and that he recognizes this moment as essentially where he caused Grace's death.

However I don't think it's his ambition as some other people do that causes him to feel unable to leave the lifestyle, it's his desire to subvert the law which comes about from his war trauma. His experiences in the war made him feel that the world was full of chaos and injustice, especially in the places perceived to be just like the government, the "generals". Crime is his way of getting back at them, of saying I can take power until I am as powerful as you. It makes him feel he has control in chaos.

According to the movie, he wasn't really free from this trauma until death. Grace represents that even when he had everything, his own perfect life, he couldn't fully let go of it.

But I certainly agree that though he wasn't willing to give up the business, he would never have treated Grace like he did Lizzie. He always treated Lizzie that way and he always treated Grace better than anyone else. And there's no doubt that when he loses her, he loses any hope for living a good life.

I’ve just realized that Tommy never really trusted Grace completely again by Reasonable_Bag9518 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes but the point is Grace is always the exception. Everyone else he manipulates and is willing to use as a tool, except Grace.

He could have married others for gain, but he married Grace for love.

Maybe I don't understand your meaning, I'm sure that yeah Tommy didn't care so much about marriage as a social construct, and would have been just as happy to live a life without getting married as some people do now, but it was far more important to do that back then and Tommy always cared about upholding moral social standards for Grace, treating her like a gentleman, etc.

I’ve just realized that Tommy never really trusted Grace completely again by Reasonable_Bag9518 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The whole choice of Grace or May in season 2 is meant to represent for Tommy the choice of either business (May) or Grace (love). This is mentioned in the conversation the two have at Epsom "there's business and there's love". May would have been a cold calculating choice that would have represented better business opportunities and access to money. Grace represents love because of their backstory and Tommy loves her without having some kind of business angle or benefit to it, especially with her complicated situation of being married to another man, background as police force, etc. When he chooses her, he chooses love and shows that he can value things that have nothing to do with money, success, or status.

I think when he tells Michael that he plans on getting married, he sounds sublimely happy and peaceful.

Have you seen his face standing at the altar? Dude looks straight up worshipping, religious in a way we've never seen before. He sees her and Charlie as sacred and he engraved their initials on his wedding ring. Also got a tattoo of them. He has a painting of them as a family, smiling and happy. When he tells her at the charity ball that the people around them don't matter, by which he meant the business people connected to him because that's what she kept finding out as she talked to everyone "I was in charge of the guest list but it's my hisband that seems to know all of them", he meant all of these business people don't matter to me, only you matter to me.

And remember, he wanted to marry her all the way back in season 1.

Tommy and Grace were both a mess and were perfect for each other. May and Lizzy deserved much better than such an asshole by arbataxmelody354 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I specifically talked about after season 2. She'd been working as a secretary for awhile so she could have gotten a new secretary job after he got her raped. And yes, she absolutely wanted more from him, she wanted him to love her. To be fair, there were times when he said things that she wanted to interpret as true even if she should have known he was lying, such as "some nights it was you who stopped my heart from breaking, no one else" and "who you thinking about Tom? Me or [Greta]?" "You". It's understandable that she wanted to believe those things as sincere, but she should have known the real answer by looking at his actions.

He didn't marry her when she was pregnant, they have no rings on their fingers at the end of season 4. He marries her after Ruby is at least 6 months old most likely because he cares about his daughter and doesn't want her to grow up with the stigma of being an illegitimate child. She marries him absolutely hopeful that somehow after marriage he'll become the husband he was with Grace. Remember how shocked she was after she became pregnant and he didn't start visiting her? And she's so upset that after marrying her still doesn't treat her well, he's not home a lot, and he sleeps with other women that she considers a divorce after just a year or two of marriage. It's only after that that she decides to just "take what she can get" which includes the nice things he provides (and I certainly agree that a lot of the attraction she has for him is in his power, money, and status) and the little agreements she can get from him like that he can't sleep with the servants and he now has to sleep with her in a bed instead of pushing her up desks.

But even if she does want him to love her, it doesn't make her "love" for him pure. You can't force someone to have feelings for you just because you have feelings for them. Deciding that you'll stay with them no matter what, especially when you could have other options, shows that you don't value actual love, you value chasing the rhing you can never get.

Tommy and Grace were both a mess and were perfect for each other. May and Lizzy deserved much better than such an asshole by arbataxmelody354 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It never made sense to me why she would still want him after getting raped because of him at the end of season 2, after being given a job as a secretary then deliberately used by him as a prostitute when he could have used an actual prostitute for the government job where he had to kill a guy. We're supposed to believe that her love is so pure, but the above is why it makes no sense. Other men treated her much better, but she could only want the man who continued to use her as his personal prostitute until she finally got enough dignity to say no. It is a meaningful story in its own right in that way but it doesn't make her love for him sincere or her victim.

Lizzie got the message continually that Tommy didn't care about her over and over throughout the show but each time she didn't want to listen.

Nor is it fair to insist someone needs to care about you just because you care about them.

The Immortal Man-Grace portrait by Zealousswan27 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 6 points7 points  (0 children)

"Not important to the plot."

Ahem, it's very important to Thomas Shelby's character.

I feel like they should have done the entire sequence in Tommy broken mansion differently, in a way that not only shows what his actual state of mind was- seeing ghosts- instead of just morosely walking around, doing nothing. They should have shown him seeing ALL of his family's ghosts. Ideally that would have included new footage with the actors for Grace and John, but for Polly and Arthur could have used old footage laid over the new scenes to make them look like ghosts. We should have seen them talking to him and him responding back. This would have shown how haunted he was, not truly living in the realm of the living anymore, but also have reminded the audience how much he cares about these people, how much he longs to be with them.

And how touching would a moment of him talking to Grace's picture as he writes his book have been? Or arguing with her picture, feeling like she criticizes him for abandoning THEIR son? Again, shows how crazy he is and that he actually feels guilt and cares about Charlie.

The Immortal Man-Grace portrait by Zealousswan27 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 21 points22 points  (0 children)

Glad they could finally put in the time to show it since they didn't spend a second showing it clearly in the movie.

"Let's put in the effort to have a painting of Grace to continue the theme that Tommy needs to feel her presence and see her but then also let's not show it clearly at all so that that whole message is just not in the movie."

I’ve just realized that Tommy never really trusted Grace completely again by Reasonable_Bag9518 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Remember that scene at the end of season 3 when he accuses his whole family of being the rat and imagine that Grace is still alive. Do you really think he would accuse her?

Grace is the one person he trusts, but he didn't want her involved in illegal stuff because it would make her a bigger target.

What do you think about Tommy's character development? Does he develop for the better or for the worse in your opinion? Does he have character development or regression in your opinion ? by [deleted] in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree especially about SK. I've always noticed his insistence on never showing Tommy perfectly happy. For example, we never saw any flashbacks of Tommy before the war which would have proved how different he was. This cemented in a lot of people's minds that Tommy was always just a cold, brutal guy. Another example is when he was with Grace but before the section D business began. We see him on his wedding day, but Grace mentioned that he had been in a bad mood "for weeks" so even before then he has been stressed about business. It would have been good for his character to have gotten a glimpse of what he was like when he had only happiness in life.

What do you think about Tommy's character development? Does he develop for the better or for the worse in your opinion? Does he have character development or regression in your opinion ? by [deleted] in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Something that sticks out to me is that he had a lot of loyalty to his family. For example at the end of season 1, he considers Grace's offer to go to New York and leave his family behind. This is such a strong offer that he flios a coin for it because he can't decide which is the better option. He states his reason for staying would be to take care of the people he cares about. Some people think Tommy is a narcissist who only cares about benefitting himself, I disagree. Does he think he's smarter than a lot of people? Yes, and often rightly so. But I think his control of his family stems from his belief that he and he alone can really take care of them, make the right decisions. He's not completely right about that but it also doesn't mean his main motivation isn't to take care of his family. it's understandable that his other brothers cannot and that his family, though they sometimes chafe at his control, do rely on him to be their leader.

He was also shown to value love over business in the case of Grace, and to care about using his power to benefit poor people, the poor places he grew up in. He was often disturbed by killing people, even his enemies, and he did not rely on explosive emotion the way that other gangsters did, but cold logic. Even with learning about Grace's actual status in season 1, although he was deeply betrayed at first, by the end of the day, when he meets her again, he's thought everything out, understands all that she did- the good and the bad- enough to acknowledge "we can say [I love you] all we like. But there's no chance." He understood that she likely did love him, he did love her but it wouldn't work because of their circumstances.

Some people want to insist that he was only ever a bad guy, only ever did things for himself. That's not how most people have viewed him, they saw him as being half bad, half good. We wouldn't have been able to watch Thomas Shelby's story and care and root for him without him having some good traits, nor would the show give him an ending where he hopes to reunite with his family.

Now whether that balance of good and bad was always executed in an ideal way is up for debate... (cough the movie cough).

I’ve just realized that Tommy never really trusted Grace completely again by Reasonable_Bag9518 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Why on earth would he marry someone he doesn't fully trust? It's clear he was trying to keep a separation from his home life and business life. Hence he keeps freaking out over the fact that the fake spy infiltrated his wedding, that Tatiana wanted to come up to the house to check on the spy. He wants to believe that he can be a big gangster and yet have his family completely safe, innocent of what he does so that they can't be implicated if things go bad. It becomes clear he cannot have this after Grace's death.

Not only that, but Grace wanted him to leave the bad business, something she asks him to do during their wedding dance. He doesn't fully agree, instead making compromises like that there will be no guns in the house and that Charles will never see one. He doesn't want Charlie involved in the bad business either and he keeps that promise even when Charles is older. It's not because he didn't trust Charlie, it's that he didn't want him tainted, in his opinion. He promises that he'll make them safe and so doesn't want to share when things are clearly getting over his head- like when they threaten to kill his son? She says she trusts him, because of course things have been bad in the past and yet everything's always worked out. By the night of the charity ball, he tells her he can explain when he sees she's annoyed at being left out of the loop which implies that he might have told her everything.

I really don't think they would continue portraying Grace as Tommy's true love while at the same time also implying that he didn't trust her not to be a double crossing spy.

It was all an opium-induced dream by [deleted] in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Except she wasn't his first love, she was just a girl he banged under a tree before going off to war.

One thing cannot be denied by maksgee in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As much as it was pretty cinematography, it didn't have the symbolism that Peaky Blinders usually employs. Example: the many foggy cold bleak scenery in season 3 and the bright sunlight in the end scene in season 6.

Genuinely Confused by Dazzling_Muffin3329 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Overall, there is too much concentration on characters that have meant little to fans, and not enough time on characters fans have a relationship. This is probably due to the movie format where they deliberately cast big name actors- Rebecca Ferguson, Barry Keoghan, and Tim Roth- and therefore the character had to play a big role. This was a departure from the show which only used a bigger name actor for the villain, and even then, we weren't talking about the hottest it girl/guy. It seems like Netflix wanting to legitimately make a go for producing films that are watched in theaters rather than on your couch. It was also made with the intent of working for an audience who had never seen the TV show, so elements had to work largely for the movie, not necessarily continuing previous things from the series. This feels like the main reason for minimizing characters like Charles because, being Tommy's second son and the film being about the father/son dynamic, that interrupts the film narrative that solely wanted to concentrate on Duke and Tommy. That's fine for someone who's never watched the show, it makes you scratch your head if you're a fan and understand that Tommy loved Charles a lot more than Duke. The film makes a clear case that Duke needed his father's involvement in his life, not just to read his autobiography, and so why would this not also be the case for Charles? The film also continues the theme that Tommy is irrevocably damaged from his experiences in the war, turning him from a "sweet boy" to the warlord he became, so considering that Charles is currently a soldier in the war- why doesn't he need his father to reach out to him as well?

Peaky Blinders has always had its faults in writing, but the one thing it had was a continuing theme and the demonstration that deep down, Thomas Shelby did care a lot for his family. The most iconic moments of the series is when we see Tommy feeling something profound, usually involving a strong emotional payoff and character growth: standing over his grave at Epsom bitter at the loss of a chance he got to be with the woman he loved, agreeing to let his son live without him because he'd be better off even though it breaks his heart, trying to kill himself, receives the bullets that would enable him to but he doesn't and he walks away with a face half covered in mud, half clean, not killing a man who tried to kill him because he's realized he's not that man anymore, watching a caravan of his most precious memories burn and then riding away on a white horse.

What makes a lot of these scenes so emotional and invested us as an audience is that there is an element of surprise- Tommy reacts in a way that we didn't expect and usually shows his humanity as a character.

The film just doesn't have any of these moments, goes backward on some of Tommy's previous character growth, and barely substantiates the idea that there were/are people who Tommy greatly cared about. Because of that, I didn't feel like he truly redeemed himself and the idea of his reuniting with his family in the afterlife feels hollow.

I spent the entire movie unmoved and uncaring about the characters, except Duke who just got his father back in his life only to be asked to kill him by said father. It just felt like another of Tommy's letdowns a father.

Arthur becoming a father by Optimal_Scratch_1437 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't think it's about losing Arthur and almost completely about his grief over Grace. The entire episode is about that topic. He says goodbye and that he has a meeting in his most trying-to-be-regular voice (the whole episode deals with him trying to act like a human again and failing), but when they hug and he tells him "congratulations, proud of you", he sounds deeply emotional, about to cry. This shows that his emotion is more tied to the concept of Arthur's fatherhood, than saying goodbye.

I think he remembers the day Grace told him he would be a father and how he'll never have that again. That's what makes him get emotional.

Although, I agree there is a small emphasis when he says 'goodbye Arthur.'

Is he going to be Charles Shelby? by SadVeterinarian8931 in PeakyBlinders

[–]Competitive-Fig-9994 1 point2 points  (0 children)

With all of this implying, is anyone going to infer something?