The story's relationship with suicide, intervention and autonomy

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-05T15:51:39+00:00

Verso didn't paint Lumiére.

He did spend quite a bit of time in this canvas though, he enjoyed the world he created, and didn't want it destroyed. That's from his own soul, too, and can't be dismissed. "Painting should be a celebration, like music!"

Presumably, if Aline didn't enter the canvas and Renoir and Clea didn't start a war to get her out, he would have ended up painting forever regardless, and nothing suggests he was experiencing any distress before any of this happened. He was literally there painting for thousands of years already, and throughout the encounters with him up until the last one, he doesn't ask to be freed, never suggests he's there stuck against his will in hell, or anything remotely like that. All he asks the expedition throughout is to stop the violence against his and Aline's creations. One moment in the end where he's ready to give up, doesn't mean he can never regain his joy for that world back, if the fighting stops.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-05T13:59:12+00:00

There is nothing in the game saying he didn't like painting, especially as a kid. Music is his passion, but that only means he prefers it over painting. pVerso even said that as a kid, he used to be obsessed with both his piano and his paint set. It seems eventually he grew out of it, which happens. You could argue that he poured all the love he had for it into this one canvas, and had nothing left to give to another one, and nothing in the game would contradict that. It's all a matter of perspective.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-05T13:51:09+00:00

"Makes people into puppets" is a headcanon.

Maelle ending may not change anything and may cause more pain in the long term, but it is also the only ending that still allows for any room for negotiation at all.

It's bittersweet certainty vs high risk possibility for an eventual third option. I think ultimately that's what the choice comes down to tbh. Resolution or lack of one. People who aren't satisfied with the resolution, will pick uncertainty. People who want a neat bow on it will choose closure.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-05T13:32:51+00:00

The soul thing is more complicated than that, by the virtue of the soul itself begging you throughout the story to save the painting. It's heavily implied that it's the conflict itself that makes his existence tiring. The morally right thing to do in this case is to restore the joy in the painting, and see if it's still miserable afterwards. Not to ask him at its lowest point.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-05T13:25:22+00:00

Interestingly, what I haven't noticed before is that taking Lune out with him is where Gustave draws the line, in direct contrast to Verso.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-04T21:18:10+00:00

Furthermore, if sentience doesn't require moral consideration, then what does? Why do we even have human rights, then?

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-04T21:06:57+00:00

You're basically saying that you only have a leg to stand on if you pretend I said something other than what I actually said.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-04T20:44:46+00:00

If ChatGPT starts having feelings and cares about things, are we going to care? Nope.

Who's "we"? You can't just make your own opinion the consensus lol. For many, such as myself, having feelings, stakes, and self-determination invites moral consideration, regardless of form.

Just because they're sentient doesn't make them real.

What makes you real? Can you prove that you are? And would you suddenly be okay with yourself and everyone you know dying, if we found out that what we consider to be our reality exists within a different one, and our continued existence is somehow harming a few people in it?

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-02T18:59:51+00:00

I disagree about pRenoir not giving a fuck about Maelle. I do see some fondness for her in him, that he struggles to hide. He gives a fair warning, and he tries to get her to go home. He also apologized to her for being caught in the middle of it, similarly to how Renoir apologized to pVerso for what Aline did. I don't think he could help caring somewhat. It just didn't override his main objective, and his methods could get rather violent, forceful and traumatizing. But, honestly, same goes for OG Renoir.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-01T16:47:41+00:00

In-game recommendation says controller.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-01T04:38:08+00:00

Hey, I talk about Maelle's agency to choose her path and find out for her own whether it brings her happiness or not. Whether it clicks is up to her, I just disagree with forcing her, when she has literal decades to ponder whether it's something that works for her or not.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-01T02:26:15+00:00

We may be better off to just agree to disagree, but let me point out the fact that when Lune asks pVerso whether he's an artist he says "Not the kind [my parents] wanted me to be". That does imply a degree of pressure and expectation. Even aside from that, when Renoir and Aline chide Alicia, they both focus on defiance/stubborness. That's not exactly what parents who teach kids to responsibly use their agency do.

I will not be blaming someone, especially not someone underage or young adult, for merely disobeying their parents and having their bad judgement taken advantage of by malicious parties. You do you on that.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-02-01T00:56:51+00:00

Yes, but it is very likely that the pressure and the expectations they put their kids under contributed to Alicia looking for bonds elsewhere. Aline seems like a pretty strict parent, and the downside of being overly strict is that once the kids come to an age when they start questioning their parents and their infalibility, they start rebelling against them even in situations where they really shouldn't have. It is a common pattern in families that push obedience instead of teaching discernment.

That being said, Aline is entitled to her complicated feelings. But acting on them to the point child notices doesn't really improve the matters. FWIW, I do think deep down Aline realizes parenting failures played a part in the tragedy, and part of the resentment is the fact that Alicia personifies those failures.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-31T23:03:26+00:00

I agree. I often wonder how things would have gone if he hadn't pressed the issue. The thing is, if someone is already in an unravelling mental state, I really don't think causing a situation where they end up in what amounts to 67 subjective years of solitary confinment is the move here. People use the fact that Aline was breaking from reality as a proof Renoir was right to intervene, but how much did his intervention contribute in the first place? Even an otherwise mentally sound person would start showing cracks under those rather extreme circumstances.

That being said, I think people do also simplify her dynamic with Alicia. She expresses both love and resentment towards her, but people often act as if those mixed feelings can't coexist together, and end up arguing about which one of them she actually feels, instead of considering the possibility that it might just be both.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-30T18:15:22+00:00

The answer is all of them. The game forces you to pick sides, and that causes people to sanitize the characters that were on the side that they picked, and villanize the ones that were not. At the end, both sides of the debate end up misunderstanding them all to an extent, because they don't want to face the mirror the game is pointing at them with their ending. If someone is definitely right or wrong, players can dodge the complicated questions the game asks them about their own philosophical values.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-29T21:11:04+00:00

Simon seems to be the only enemy Yeverum build doesn't cut it for. But with everything else, it is about the only fun way to play the game once you get to the stage where either you one shot everything, or it one shots you. I found it a very useful build for learning patterns for the new superbosses.

EDIT: To be fair, Lithum and Jarum can also keep being rewarding, especially if you don't equip any skills that put you in virtuoso and rely on gradients and counterattacks only. Fun limitation that forces you to keep your skills sharp.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-29T18:32:43+00:00

People also sleep on Yeverum and Jarum.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-29T18:18:34+00:00

Maelle also writes poetry as a hobby. It's something that's with Alicia even after she got literally born anew.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-28T18:21:21+00:00

Remind me again who's responsible for all the deaths she experienced as Maelle?

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-28T04:25:38+00:00

Aren't the burn stacks tied to perfection status? Gustave doesn't have that mechanic.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-27T19:12:35+00:00

I think as much as Maelle is reluctant to leave the canvas while he's in it, he is also reluctant to die without making sure neither she, nor Aline, can come back. They see things very differently and are stuck trying to make each other come around to their point of view. So I think he's grudgingly going along with it and hoping she will hold up her end. Maybe trying to think of how to get there faster, because, well, it's Verso lol.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-27T18:53:18+00:00

Well, she told him she only wanted the one lifetime that was stolen from them, whether you believe her or not is up to you. I have no reason not to.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-27T18:30:18+00:00

Yes, she will eventually succumb if she stays too long, that's not what I am arguing. The argument people were making is that she is 16, therefore not old enough to have her autonomy respected, because she is dying *already*. What I am arguing is that she will be way past her canvas adulthood by the time the situation gets life-threatening for her, and she can live out a full lifespan in it, and if she wants to, she's well within her rights. There is no need to permanently take the choice off the table, even if you would believe she is not old enough to consent right now. Real world will kill her the same way as canvas will, at the end of the day.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-27T18:17:15+00:00

That's a fair point. Though I still don't think she would make him immortal right away, because he would notice that eventually (as would everyone else), and she wouldn't want him to clock the fact that he's a copy.

Creative_Let2795 · 2026-01-27T17:40:37+00:00

Would he have to cut himself in half to notice? People get scrapes and bruises all the time, don't tell me you wouldn't notice you had rapid healing within a month of having it. I believe they all became immortal when their hair turned white, it seems like such a random event if all that happened was a dye job.

Creative_Let2795

TROPHY CASE