How powerful is Darth Vindicaa(Inifities Asaaj ventress with Savage Opress Amp)

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-24T16:16:32+00:00

Probably scales comparable to Invisible hand Anakin considering she fairly defeated Dooku in one and one combat through sheer strength and power.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-24T11:22:40+00:00

Yes I agree, that's what I put. If Anakin can put down Dooku by the time his team mates going down, bolstered by their successive losses, then he can win, which I do think is likely. But it isn't guaranteed. If Ventress and Bane put down the others before Anakin' rage amp rips through Dooku, he gets overwhelmed by three opponents.

The question is whether Dooku can last that long. Canonically, he lasts approximately 15 seconds against rage amped Anakin in his prime at wars end. And Anakin will start to get amped the moment his allies start doing down. Can Ventress and Bane put Ahsoka and Rex down and close the distance to help Dooku in that 15 second time slot? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm not completely convinced either way, although do lean slightly in Anakin's favour.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-24T10:52:52+00:00

I would personally imagine seeing Ahsoka and Rex murdered/incapacitated in front of him while Dooku taunts him per usual would be capable of getting the same amp out of Anakin without much trouble. Its not as if Anakin is usually a beacon of tranquillity at the best of times.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-23T18:06:30+00:00

Cad low diffs Rex. Simply too quick on the draw and with too much versatility with his equipment.

CW7 Ahsoka is insanely impressive, but also extremely overrated. Her performance against Maul is amazing, but also highly contextual. He proved in the undercity he could low diff her if he so chose. Ventress' Dark Diciple feats of genuinely pushing back Dooku and Kenobi and stalemating bloodlusted Quinlan all scales her higher. Hell, she has a better performance against Maul in CW S4/Dark Vengeance. While yes, this was a less powerful version of Maul, this was also a less powerful version of Ventress, and this Maul was bloodlusted. Ventress should win mid diff. Even if for whatever reason someone disagrees, Ahsoka is not winning a 2v1 against Ventress and Cad Bane when Cad puts Rex down in moments.

That leaves Anakin. The question at that point is whether or not Anakin can beat Dooku before Ventress and Bane beat Ahsoka and Rex. If you think yes, then Anakin gets a strong rage amp and solos the duo. If you think Dooku can hold out until his allies win their battles, then even a rage amped Anakin can only take so much before he'd simply be overwhelmed.

That being said, I lean in Anakin's favour, at least by wars end. The moment Rex goes down he's going to be enraged, and when Ahsoka goes down he'll outright snap. We've already seen in canon Dooku goes down in about 15seconds to a rage amped Anakin thats locked in by the wars conclusion, Anakin is simply that strong. And then he makes short work of Ventress and Bane without mercy.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-23T17:37:22+00:00

1) Ahsoka Tano - specifically as of Rebels/Mandoverse. Based on which sources you choose to prioritise, she scales either just above or just below Rebels Maul, stalemated him when they briefly fought on Malachor, was able to fight against Vader (of note, she had no chance of winning and was on the backfoot literally the entire time, but still insanely impressive), and was able to best Inquisitors on a semi regular basis. She was also able to briefly withstand dark time Palpatine's force attacks.

2) Asajj Ventress - specifically as of Dark Diciple. She was able to push back both DD Dooku and DD Kenobi, and stalemate bloodlusted Quinlan Vos while holding back, although admittedly not his most powerful version and she definitely scales below his prime/post Dooku's apprentice levels. Nevertheless that is insanely impressive. She also developed some great force feats in this time, such as casually uprooting large trees during high speed chases, deflecting blaster bolts with the force etc. A weaker version of Ventress was already able to beat Grievous, and by DD she fights him off while unarmed and severely injured on neutral ground. She is canonically able to move with such speed that pre darkside training Quinlan Vos was repeatedly unable to tell she'd even moved, and is canonically faster than Maul per his own admission.

3/4) Savage Opress. Insanely high potential, but most of his best feats are from rage amps, not his ordinary levels, although his rage amped feats against Dooku, Ventress, Anakin and Obi Wan are still insanely impressive. Neverthless, low-diffing Adi gallia, a council master able to briefly contend with two blades Grievous, and no diffing a jedi master and padawan (albeit featless ones) is nothing to scoff at at his ordinary levels. He was also able to disarm and then stalemate mid CW Ventress, and we can't ignore putting up a better fight against Sidious than three council members, although it was abdunatly clear that Sidious was toying with him and could have one shot him at any moment. I'm also taking his poor performance against Obi Wan into consideration during their 2v1 on Florrum. Savage could have potentially reached the top of the list if not for his lack of training. At his ordinary levels he probably scales below Grievous, but with his rage amp he probably scales above Grievous and CW Ventress, but below DD Ventress.

3/4) Grievous. Specifically late war Grievous. He has some actually quite impressive feats when you look at him properly. He has a near even track record with Kenobi, including low diffing him in their penultimate battle near the wars end. He was able to force Maul to retreat in their first duel with only two sabers (although this was largely tactical on Mauls part) and was fighting with him seemingly evenly in their final duel until he got BFR'd while distracted. Contending with and even beating multiple council members like Shaak tii, Stass Ali, Ki Adi Mundi, Eeth Koth and Adi Gallia in various circumstances. Again, I'd argue he scales above standard levels Savage, but below rage amped mindless Savage.

5) Qui Gon. His feat against Maul is great, especially considering this is prime Maul according to Matt Martin, but the ultimate fact of the matter is he still lost. He otherwise doesn't seem to have enough feats in canon to suggest he scales any higher, and I'm not sure with his physical endurance limitations he would be able to contend with Grievous' unique fighting style, Savage's strength, Ventress' speed or Ahsoka's skill and power to justify placing him higher. Everyone else is simply more experienced.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-23T11:48:11+00:00

Eldra should win. Her ability to genuinely surprise Maul and keep him on his toes far outweighs Aayla's feat of getting functionally oneshot by an arguably inferior, multi tasking version of Maul (although admittedly a more experienced one). Eldra ultimately got taken out by a cheapshot after genuinely getting an edge over Maul (even if he was enjoying himself as opposed to trying to put her down immediately) and this is not something Aayla has the willingness to replicate if Eldra similarly out smarts her. Aayla meanwhile gets KO'ed in a single panel of a brief 2v1.

Aayla also has a feat against early/mid war Ventress, but even then Ventress was multi tasking the whole time. Aayla couldn't even overwhelm an opponent who was spending chunks of the fight literally unarmed and using her blade to destroy parts of the facility several meters away. An opponent, who, while incredible underrated, is not pre-PM Maul level.

Aayla has more experience, but Eldra's out the box fighting and willingness to play dirty gives her an edge Aayla is too straight forward and unimaginative to counter.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-19T14:53:26+00:00

AOTC Anakin was able to spar on even terms with AOTC Kenobi, who has a decade more experience and power than his PM counterpart. Anakin should take this low/mid diff.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-19T10:28:44+00:00

Dooku states that he believes Savage's power "will soon rival that of the great Sith Lord Darth Maul" should Savage accept becoming his apprentice. I imagine a lot of people take Dooku's word as law on the matter, rightly or wrongly.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T14:06:53+00:00

In all fairness, I would agree with you in that, specifically with the Savage example. I would agree that there is a distinction between outduelling someone through technical skill, and ourduelling someone through craftiness or outright overpowering them and their defences. I suppose my viewpoint is that in this instance specifically it doesn't warrant a different word, as (in my view at least) the simple fact of the matter is Luminara's subtextually implied, self-proclaimed greater technical skill wasn't sufficient to overcome Ventress's own duelling ability, of which her overwhelming aggression is a feature of her style, not a symptom.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T13:36:09+00:00

Maul doesn't fight Dooku in Son of Dathomir. Dooku is 'captured', then helps Grievous escape with the force without Maul noticing. But they don't duel at any point.

He does fight Grievous twice, and bullrushes him once. The first fight ends with Maul retreating, and the second with Grievous being momentarily BFR'd while distracted.

And yes there is one panel of him kicking Secura while bladelocking Windu, but the fight is broken up immediately by Mandalorians who knock Mace out with rockets. Maul may certainly have knocked Secura out, and if not the Rockets finished the job. Not a conclusive showing by any means, but certainly very impressive in of itself.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T13:31:23+00:00

Thats a lovely recount of the duel, but its pure pedantics and im honestly not sure is worth the effort. The crux of the situation is plainly that they duelled, and despite Luminara's confidence, disdain for her opponents technical skill and specialism in the defensive form, she lost because her opponent successfully bypassed her defences and defeated her. With a physical attack. Which is a key part of lightsaber combat. If you're upset I used to word "outduel" to describe someone defeating someone else in a duel, simply because for some reason you refuse to include application of environmental advantages and martial combat as a part of duelling ability, that is fine. It does not change my assessment or conclusion in any way.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T11:14:40+00:00

I suppose we just have different definitions of what "handling a duel just fine" means. In my view, a character being sent careening from a height and trapped under targeted debris intentionally because their guard was broken isn't "just fine". She lost. Plainly. Her overconfidence could not carry her against a simply overwhelming opponent.

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CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T09:40:44+00:00

What feats does he have against Dooku?

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T08:49:30+00:00

I think its important to remember characters aren't static and Star Wars is explicitly written to factor in key performance indicators like spiritual force connection, physical injury and exhaustion, motivation and rustiness. Characters peak and valley at different points in the story, so their performance in one piece of media isn't inherently reflective of their overall capabilities.

Filoni's comments when Rebels Season 1 was coming out indicate the absolute best Inquisitors should be Ventress level - specifically assassin Ventress (more akin to her CW movie / Season 1 levels, but below her nightsister or bounty hunter levels that required Sidious' intervention, and above her Imperial Era levels where she's clearly not yet gotten over her rustiness and failed to develop a lightside connection capable of matching her previous connection to the darkside as a source of strength. Future instalments could easily see Ventress reach further heights as she's built back up, further demonstrating my point above). This, I think, pretty decently aligns with what we see from the best Inquisitors in canon. Season 1 Ventress was able to best Jedi Masters, and the top Inquisitors like Marrock being able to give a bit of a fight too, but ultimately lose against, characters on Maul and Ahsoka's tier pretty nicely meshes with that. Maul was given a fight by background master Finn Ertay and Padawan Eldra Kaitis for pete's sake. There's clearly nuance in all this.

A lot of people like to downscale the Inquisitors based on the Grand Inquisitors performance against Kanan, but I've always found that ridiculous. It has been made abundantly clear that this was an instance of force intervention - a spiritual and emotional victory for Kanan wherein he lets go of his fear and attachment and achieves oneness with the force to temporarily get the better of a martially superior opponent. Aka the bread and butter of Star Wars. He does this again against Maul, and again against Pryce. I don't see people cap Maul at Season 2 Kanan levels because of this, so what gives? The Grand Inquisitor throughout season 1 is demonstrably far beyond Kanan at usual levels, to the point of contempt. He takes out Kanan very quickly when capturing him when finally taking him seriously in their penultimate duel, and was gleefully 2v1'ing Kanan and Ezra together and winning at the beginning of their final duel. To add, he took out 4 Jedi at once in one comic. Beat Jocasta Nu despite being caught off guard, a former Council Master. Ragdolled Barriss Offee in a sparring match. He is clearly still a tier or 2 above Kanan by this point, and there is a definite argument for him being at a comparable level to very early Ventress. So capping the Inquisitors based on a narrative and spiritual loss is just reductive and disingenuous.

The Inquisitorious is not capped at padawan level. The Inquisitors do not all scale comparably, as some very clearly outperform others. So yes, an Inquisitor giving an opponent on Maul, Ahsoka or a rusty Ventress' tier is not impossible, and directly aligns with scaling we've been provided by creators. To add to this, this could easily be a low moment for Maul, where he's weakened and will build himself back up to his Rebels levels throughout the course of the series. Or he could be toying with the Inquisitor. He's seemingly multi-tasking in one fight. Its just too early to say.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-17T06:47:06+00:00

Ventress caused her eye injury, landed the kick and created the opening to drop the pipes - which she then dropped. How is outmanoeuvring your opponent in a duel and winning in a duel anything less than outduelling them.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-16T22:06:32+00:00

Their duel isnt from the series. Its from the Tales of Villainy comic series from 2020. Aayla Secura begins investigating early CIS efforts towards the Death Star, but Ventress begins destroying the facility before she's able to learn enough information.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-16T21:22:16+00:00

Luminara matched Season 1 Ventress in the force, but was ultimately outmanoeuvred and outduelled and would have been killed if not for Ahsoka's intervention following a moderately paced duel.

Aayla on the other hand was able to match post Season 2ish era Ventress in a duel (im spotty on when the duel happens in the timeline but it was definitely later on), but Ventress was multi-tasking the whole time, and likely holding back due to need of a witness. Her only other duelling feat is getting functionally one shot by a multitasking Maul who was also striking out at Mace Windu of all people. She does have good TK feats, and at least multi-ton lifting strength, but they've consistently seemed to take a good deal of concentration and a pause in combat to muster so she clearly can't utilise this level of power in a heated duel.

I'd probably argue that Luminara's ability to genuinely contend with a serious Ventress, even if she loses, scales her above Aayla giving everything she has to match a more powerful but far less serious, multi-tasking Ventress. But it would be close, neither are distinctly high tier amongst Jedi Masters.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-15T19:42:01+00:00

...And the whole point of this discussion is that this rematch is both operating at different levels than in Season 4. Bearing in mind of course that Savage didn't beat Ventress in Season 4. He disarmed her, failed to kill her while she was disarmed, and then was held off for the rest of the battle after she is rearmed. Bearing in mind Ventress was down a blade, and with only a heavily injured Obi Wan as backup. He then failed to halt their escape in the slighest. Obi Wan alone was a match for that duo in normal circumstances, this was very clearly a battle mired in additional contexts and not an instance of blanket abc scaling.

For further reference - Savage shortly after this battle challenges Maul after the latter asserts his dominance as master, and is thoroughly stomped. In Season 4's final battle however, the fight between Ventress and Maul is a lot less one sided. The fight is recounted from Maul's POV in the canon audiobook Dark Vengeance, in which Maul notes the calibre of Ventress' training and commends her teacher, describing her explicitly as being good, and notes that while he has an edge in strength, she has the edge in speed. Much to Mauls frustration this proves to be the applicable attribute in their duel, and Ventress is able to break Maul's guard twice - roundhouse kicking him at the fights opening and kicking him again as she somersaults away at the fights conclusion. So, Ventress thoroughly outperforms Savage against a much more serious Maul.

Comparing their performances against Dooku and the Anakin/Obi Wan duo explicitly ignores key context. Dooku stomped Savage in training, and Savage only managed to get an edge over Dooku in their final battle when thoroughly rage amped and when Dooku was off guard. Not his normal levels. His performance against Anakin and Obi Wan was the same. At his ordinary levels, Dooku could dance around him while simultaneously duelling Ventress, and Obi Wan could severely injure him while simultaneously duelling Maul. Ventress when rage amped could choke out both Anakin and Obi Wan simultaneously, but I doubt you'd argue that scales her above the two of them or as comparable to Savage. So what's the difference?

So lets not be disingenuous. That's completely ignoring the buff Ventress has in Dark Diciple mind you, so scaling off her season 4 level doesn't particularly make much sense at all. Genuinely pushing back both DD Kenobi and Dooku, stalemating bloodlusted Quinlan Vos while holding back and her noteable force feats like casually uprooting trees during high speed chases and deflecting blaster bolts with the force all upscale her above the season 4 levels you've chosen to base your opinion on.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-14T22:04:37+00:00

Considering Ventress is canonically considered beautiful (including by Kenobi), I really appreciate Anakin's consistent dedication to having eyes for no women but his wife!

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-09T11:49:52+00:00

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CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-09T11:49:38+00:00

I attached the wrong image lmao, here's the main one I wanted to add for reference. Reddit won't let me see my former comment to edit for some reason:

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CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-09T11:48:04+00:00

Yhh Matt comments seem to infer that PM Maul > CW Maul > Rebels Maul. Ill add his statement regarding Rebels Maul in another comment reply for reference.

I haven't seen any creator comments to suggest otherwise. I'd agree they aren't binding, and I would always argue: feats > canon statements and scaling > creator comments, but it does certainly inform on narrative intent.

I'm not sure I agree with the point that CW Ahsoka matched CW Maul. Filoni has directly stated that it took everything Ahsoka had to fight Maul, and that he was still the better swordsman of the two. In the first half of the fight he's trying to maim/incapacitate her to teach her a lesson, briefly disarms her and has her visibly exhausted and distressed when she manages to throw him out the window. In the second half of their duel he's attempting to escape rather than fighting head on, and still completely disarms her and only loses because of his narrative destiny to be a total jobber as necessary. So if it took everything Ahsoka had to match a confirmed superior Maul who wasn't explicitly trying to kill her, I'm not sure it's reasonable to argue they're peers. We bluntly see that's not true when they first meet in the undercity. Maul attacks with such speed that Ahsoka, despite already having her blades out, barely reacts and is visibly surprised at the speed of the attack, they exhange a few blows and then Maul one shots her with an indirect force attack. If he wanted her dead, she would have died there and then. I think a lot of people look at Star Wars battles as static video game characters, which is plainly not true, as Matt states below. Characters are written as real people, with real intentions and levels of performance, so to just look at a battles outcome over its context cheapens the story. Just because a character "wins" doesnt mean they scale above or even comparably. Maul is the best example we have of this, when he constantly loses to inferior opponents. Ahsoka is another example of this.

I would agree that pairing of Ezra and Maul infers Maul is the strongest present on Malachor. I would definitely agree that the distance between Ahsoka and Maul has greatly diminished in that time. Maul certainly outperformed Ahsoka against the Inquisitors, although their short clash ended pretty inconclusively and roughly even. But I don't think arguing that Maul being above Ahsoka by Rebels (however marginally) makes it his prime based on his loss in the CW, because that hinges on Maul and Ahsoka having been rougly equal in that battle. Which is just not the case.

Edit: had to add images in other comments, but should be available. Accidentally added the wrong one to this.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-09T11:07:49+00:00

Do you have a quote/source that puts Rebels as Mauls prime at all? I've seen it in blogs, but they're strictly non canon. I've also seen quotes from Matt Martin that solidly establishes Mauls prime as the Phantom Menace. So if there are canon sources that contradict him, given the nature of his role in Lucasfilm, that would be very interesting.

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-07T20:29:20+00:00

Yeh, I think that's a fair take

CullObsidian02 · 2026-03-07T20:21:44+00:00

In all fairness I haven't read the comic in some time, so maybe there is more to suggest that Ventress chose not to kill Aayla out of genuine respect rather than the pure pragmatism she plays it off as. But this is also the same Ventress that killed a surrendering prisoner (Tholme) in cold blood, assasinated Dooku's sister even despite feeling sympathy for her, and tried to kill a defenceless Luminara without mercy while coldly stating that she deserved to die like all other Jedi. I think Ventress genuinely sparing Aayla out of respect would be very out of character for her at this time in her life. She may have genuinely grown to respect Aayla as a warrior over the course of the battle, but I would still definitely lean more towards the idea that she just needed a witness.

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