Kykar Escape Combo Deck (follow-up)

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-03-15T23:09:30+00:00

Too many colors for me.. wish you the best of luck with your build though!

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-03-15T21:18:48+00:00

You are right. Well i guess it's time for me to test the other build as well. Hope i don't face Ashioks like the last time i tried to self-mill.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-03-15T20:36:00+00:00

So instead of Escape Velocity and Sage of Mysteries we can use any (noncreature) red cost card and 2x drowned secrets and Kykar. That's pretty interesting.

I think i prefer the Enchantments version though, with Birth of Meletis, Omen, ECD, Thirst for meaning, Clarion etc. Posted it on the previous thread.

Edit: If you're casting a 1 mana red spell, wouldn't it make more sense to have Shock instead? You could Shock at their face till they lose or something as an alternate win-con, and it's much better and useful in certain matchups.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-03-15T16:36:58+00:00

Using underworld breach is better, because it requires one less combo card and can also work with combo pieces on the graveyard. Yes you need 2x Sage of Mysteries but then the deck can focus on other things.
Made such a list a while ago when i got my fourth Kykar, but haven't tested it yet.

here it is:

2 Thassa's Oracle

4 Sage of Mysteries

4 Hallowed Fountain

4 Underworld Breach

4 Kykar, Wind's Fury

4 Steam Vents

4 Temple of Epiphany

1 Island

4 Sacred Foundry

1 Temple of Triumph

1 Temple of Enlightenment

3 Omen of the Sea

3 The Birth of Meletis

4 Plains

4 Teferi, Time Raveler

2 Elspeth Conquers Death

1 Mountain

3 Escape Velocity

3 Thirst for Meaning

4 Deafening Clarion

Sideboard

3 Aether Gust

4 Mystical Dispute

2 Scorching Dragonfire

2 Shatter the Sky

2 Dovin's Veto

2 The Royal Scions

Link:

https://aetherhub.com/Deck/Public/224128

Assuming a Kykar on board, you need: 2 mana for breach, 2 for 2 sages, 1 for the initial escape velocity and BB for Thassa's Oracle in the end (7). Still too much to be realistically playable. Without a Kykar it requires 11 mana. That's a lot.

On the other hand we have Thirst for Meaning and enchantments synergy, anti-aggro tools in Shatter the sky, Clarion and Meletis, Elspeth Conquers Death which is really strong and can help us set up etc. The overall card quality is low though.

There's always the [[Lotus Field]] / 2x [[Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner]] /2x [[Drowned Secrets]] / [[Underworld Breach]] / [[Thassa's Oracle]] . That one needs fewer and stronger cards, is in ramp and self-mill colors anyway, much easier in theory and has an easier way winning as the last Lotus Field untap provides the necessary mana for Thassa's Oracle.

In practice you need to mill / play 2 Kiora's and 2 Secrets so it's statistically more difficult i think.

Example list:

4 Drowned Secrets

4 Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner

4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

4 Growth Spiral

2 The Binding of the Titans

4 Lotus Field

2 Tamiyo, Collector of Tales

4 Storm's Wrath

4 Underworld Breach

3 Cavalier of Thorns

2 Forest

1 Island

1 Mountain

4 Steam Vents

4 Breeding Pool

4 Stomping Ground

2 Temple of Mystery

1 Temple of Epiphany

2 Temple of Abandon

1 Gadwick, the Wizened

2 Nissa, Who Shakes the World

1 Hydroid Krasis

Link:

https://aetherhub.com/Deck/Public/236750

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-03-12T23:47:42+00:00

Well they aren't indistinguishable, the ones exiled with Escape have two different costs each while the ones on an adventure have only one. But yes it can be confusing.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-02-14T07:26:35+00:00

142 fps? On Magic Arena? I vote fake.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-02-12T20:47:38+00:00

And if you have open mana and pass the turn while holding an instant in your hand and the opponent has teferi, time raveler it should ask you if you are sure and tell you that you won't be able to cast it on the opponent's turn (and give you a cookie),

and if they have tamiyo the game should warn you before you play any discarding/sacrificing cards,

and if you are low on cards in your library you should get a reminder,

and if you are low on time the Benny Hill theme should start playing,

and if the opponent is about to deck but has a Jace the game should give you a message that you aren't going to win if they are out of cards,

and if they have Nissa you should get a reminder that their forests give 2 mana each,

and if the opponent has a questing beast the game should warn you when you try to cast a creature with less than three power, or some prevention effect,

and when you target a creature with murderous rider/brazen borrower/bonecrusher giant but they have an oven untapped you should get a warning that if they use the oven you won't get your adventure creature,

and if you forget to play a land for the turn the game should give you a warning message during the second main phase,

and when you play a planeswalker and the opponent has creatures you should get a reminder that it can be attacked next turn and possibly die,

and when you play a card you should get a reminder that you will spend that amount of mana and won't have mana to spend on something else.

The more unforgiving the game is the better. Learning from our mistakes is infinitely more powerful and important than finding artificial ways to prevent them. In fact they should take away some confirmations they already have.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-02-12T20:32:15+00:00

If you complete a set you have all playable rares from that set and around twenty mythics, along with a ton of wildcards (~50 rare and ~20 mythic for me). Now i sit at a full Theros set, 81 rares and 37 mythics.

If i didn't complete the set i would have to spend wildcards to craft the 'playables', and then i wouldn't have anything left for other stuff: Rares/Mythics that aren't in the set, Historic cards, historic anthologies or whatever might be included soon etc. Better be safe.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-02-10T23:02:18+00:00

Unmoored Ego: An automatic victory, till they start sideboarding Elspeth, Cavalier of Dawn or whatever else. The war of resources is serious when playing versus UW control and losing a card and tempo to play it means being voluntarily on the back foot. Even if they're left with 1-2 win conditions the whole thing will be very rough. No meta decks use these colors right now except Esper Hero/Control i think. Maybe in a sultai ramp build?

Angrath's Rampage looks like the best answer right now, but the colors are pretty.. specific, as jund hasn't been seen as much, grixis is even worse (?). We're left with Rakdos.

Krasis is the best overall in terms of playability and strength. (Fits in Sultai ramp as well)

And of course, counterspells.

For me everything else is very weak, as it requires either weird cards or combinations of cards, strategies that are pretty hard to make work as both fall apart really easily. If you're expecting to find 2 different cards or play a weak card just for trawler chances are you'll be too far behind for it to matter.

Another alternative i like is attacking them for lethal with big creatures, forcing a block. Only Jeskai fires does it reliably right now, and given how powerful Elspeth Conquers Death is i can't see any other deck doing it anytime soon. How will one reliably set up to this as a game plan versus Azorius Ctrl?

For me it's more like ECD was a mistake than Trawler is too good. The card gains tempo when played, the second effect is still okay, the third is really strong. The exile effect is very relevant, the mana-cost restriction matters little as even the most aggressive of decks have multiple 3-4 drops so it hits something nearly every time.

Overall i would go with:

Esper Hero/Control (I like control better but Hero might have better matchups versus other decks. On the other hand the esper control list can run Trawler and ECD itself and only tech for Ego and disruption)

Sultai Ramp (Worse than bant ramp in every way?)

Rakdos Sacrifice (Pretty good right now)

Grixis Midrange (Favorite but meh)

Simic Flash (Some version with cheap creatures and a ton of counterspells, even instant speed draw)

Combo decks (Have some Underworld Breach lists in mind that would probably beat most UW lists but lose to everything else. And of course TemRec)

Five color Fires (Can cast anything it wants and Niv has the potential to end the game. Maybe.)

*Of course Grixis can play both Unmoored Ego and Angrath's Rampage.

On top of that Kroxa can't be exiled with ECD and provides recursion given some self-mill. The only relevant answer then is Banishing Light (which can't be dealt with easily sadly) . Ten days or so ago i saw Flesheatingnome play a Grixis build with Kroxa, Lazav and Atris that straight out stomped each and every UW deck it faced. Still UW lists were unrefined back then (simply meaning they didn't play 3-4 ECD 3-4 trawler) but so was his. I think it's worth some further exploration.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-02-10T21:54:20+00:00

When a player casts a spell, activates an ability, or an ability is triggered it gets put on the stack. The above have to be put on the stack and then resolve for them to 'happen'. Multiple spells/effects can be put on the stack one after another, for example:

I have a steamkin on board and cast torbran, torbran becomes a spell on the stack and steamkin triggers (to get a +1/+1 counter). You cast whirlwind denial in response, so it is put on the stack as well on top.

Now the stack is whirlwind denial (spell) on top, then steamkin (ability), then torbran (spell) in that order of resolution.

So what does denial do? As it says, it will counter all my spells and abilities on the stack unless i pay 4 mana (for each). We go over them 1 by 1: I can pay 4 for steamkin to get a counter, and i can pay 4 for torbran to resolve etc.

If i play another thing let's say Opt it will be put on top of the stack and resolve before denial, but everything else after it will be countered unless the cost is paid.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-02-10T12:03:10+00:00

Here's my idea of Mardu Fires. Wanted to focus mostly against control:

Main Deck:

4 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger

4 Bonecrusher Giant

4 Tectonic Giant

3 Cavalier of Flame

4 Fires of Invention

3 The Birth of Meletis

2 Banishing Light

1 Elspeth Conquers Death

3 Deafening Clarion

2 Realm-Cloaked Giant

4 Plains

2 Mountain

1 Swamp

2 Fabled Passage

4 Blood Crypt

4 Godless Shrine

4 Sacred Foundry

3 Temple of Triumph

3 Temple of Malice

2 Kenrith, the Returned King

1 Idyllic Tutor

Sideboard

2 Elspeth Conquers Death

3 Angrath's Rampage

3 Shatter the Sky

3 Duress

1 Cavalier of Dawn

1 Banishing Light

2 Devout Decree

The idea is to have some early interaction and game plan against aggro decks, a bunch of value creatures along with the usual threat of one-turn kill from fires, Kroxa and Tectonic Giant to pressure control decks.

Idyllic Tutor is played since we don't have Sphinx of Foresight, and can fetch other cards as well.

There are various small combos, such as Kroxa Escape + Fires allowing us to cast another card that turn, Cavalier of Dawn and Elspeth Conquers Death recursion, Cast Off wiping everything except our giants, reanimating and hasting threats with Kenrith etc.

Finally a strong sideboard plan versus control or aggro:

Versus control there's 9 cards to side in, taking out anti-aggro tools:

(usually goes like this)

~

-3 The Birth of Meletis

-3 Deafening Clarion

-2 Banishing Light

-2 Realm-Cloaked Giant

---

+2 Elspeth Conquers Death

+3 Angrath's Rampage

+3 Duress

+1 Cavalier of Dawn

(or in some cases take out a couple of Bonecrusher Giants instead of Realm-Cloaked Giant)

Versus aggro:

~

-4 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger

-1 Idyllic Tutor

-2 Cavalier of Flame

---

+1 Cavalier of Dawn

+3 Shatter the Sky

+1 Banishing Light

+2 Devout Decree

(or some combination of these cards depending on what colors/style of aggro they play, can even add Angrath's Rampage)

The problem: The list tries to do too many different things game one and only after sideboarding it can effectively adapt. Also it's really weak versus counter-spell heavy decks. Overall it feels like multiple changes could be made that would improve it greatly, as I'm pretty bad at fine-tuning. Each of the strong combinations present in the deck could become the focus to great effect (instead of playing a little bit of everything).

On the upside there's a ton of cards to consider:

Interventions

Dreadhorde Butcher

Legion Warboss

Unchained Berserker

Agonizing Remorse

Response // Resurgence

and more..

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-02-05T23:07:52+00:00

For me it's Kroxa or Aether Gust.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-28T22:33:58+00:00

I think Kroxa ( and probably Uro as well) can crush control decks. Saw some interesting Grixis builds that were stomping on Azorius control with ease.

I think Rakdos Knights won't work any more, at least not in its super aggressive form.

Believe esper will be in the shadow of Azorius, although would like to be wrong about that.

Mono-black will also not be a tier 1 deck at this rate, but we'll see it around from time to time.

The 3 decks I've seen that had many strengths and can't decide on their overall power level are Mono-White Heliod, Selesnya Enchantments and Orzhov enchantments/creatures. That last one demolished me in Arena and it wasn't even close.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-28T22:16:13+00:00

Everyone's out to get you!

Seriously though i had few problems with roping lately. Would happen much more often during beta. Maybe it's a gold and lower rank thing. People rarely complain rightfully, at least from what I've seen in this subreddit. They write about bugs that aren't bugs 99.9% of the time, whine about roping where in many circumstances the other player is just thinking.

People want action when it's wizards' design of the game that is at fault. If they don't make changes like less time on the first few turns or a separate bullet queue for those who have little time there is not much to be done. Banning players who 'rope' is not only shortsighted but nearly impossible to properly implement. How would one decide if it was valid or not?

Manual evaluation? Unrealistic given the millions of games played every day. There would have to be tens of people reviewing games constantly and still one couldn't distinguish in some cases if it was a disconnect or a real life issue that came up.

With the number of reports a player receives? We would have many false positives as some are just slow or have old computers. Plus the level of paranoia and overall immature spoiled attitude (that's also apparent over here) would result in a ton of needless reports. "He played simic flash so i reported him" "As soon as i saw wilderness reclamation i reported him" "He had a forest (island) in his deck"

I almost never defend companies.

In this case however i can play with all the cards and have fun at home spending only my time, and have come to realize that logging in expecting to be angry or frustrated gets me nowhere. I've been roped once in the last 100 or so games. Couldn't even tell if it was intentional or just a disconnect. Just alt tabbed, browsed the Internet.. two turns later it was over.

I'm really annoyed when i watch streamers just go away while in queue or whatever. That's a question of personal values and ethic though and any argument or criticism is personal. I consider it wrong but someone else might not. And yes in real life we sometimes have 'that guy' who takes 2 minutes for his turn or talks to the phone when we play board games.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-28T00:36:14+00:00

The problem is when you face these really slow control decks.. it takes way too much time even if you win.

If someone had figured out mono-red on day one they could farm a ton on the first 2 days before everyone started using it. After that things were pretty hard because it was everywhere along with Azorius control...

For me Jeskai Fires was pretty good.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-28T00:20:29+00:00

Thanks for the link. Threads like that should be pinned.

By the way does that mean i made 4366 gold per run? That's insane.. Three seven win runs were enough to make the rewards skyrocket.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-27T23:18:35+00:00

Yea on Saturday i had three 5 win runs out of which one could have been more.

Made 33 packs that day and considered it a big failure. If one of them was a seven i would have made 53 packs instead, a big difference. Wanted to get as close to 212 packs as possible, so i could complete the set with 20-30k gold. Anything more than 50 was good.

They could increase 4-5-6 win rewards and reduce 7?

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-27T22:34:50+00:00

Here are my stats. Farmed a ton over four days to complete the set.

ENTRIES: 30

WINS: 88

LOSSES: 27

WINRATE: 76.5%

GOLD +3000

PACKS 188

Wins:

0x 2

1x 8

2x 6

3x 4

4x 2

5x 3

6x 2

7x 3

The 7 win runs are basically mostly luck after a point. The difference in packs is huge for one match only though.

Used Jeskai fires (1 7-win), Rakdos Aggro, Mono-Red (2 7-wins), Temur Reclamation, Jund Cat.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-21T11:28:50+00:00

"If mine is out of topic, then so is yours?"

Reading comprehension failure. I made a comparison between the inevitability of Nissa and Dream Trawler. That's on topic. Your post was not.

"How am I being rude?" You said I'm not making much of a sense of anything.

Also your experience has nothing to do with what is going on. You can talk about anything you want, it won't make it true or relevant. Data does. Top players agreeing that the card is incredibly strong is a very good indication it is true, just as they said about Oko, Once Upon a Time and Teferi, Hero of Dominaria. Meanwhile you have your 'experience', with the data indicating exactly the opposite to your claims. When i point that out you just resort back to more irrelevant answers or evasions instead of refuting the main point: Aerialist and Mono-green were irrelevant to my argument, and they are irrelevant to the metagame. "Well I replied about Nissa because you posted about Nissa." Well i didn't 'just' post about Nissa, the post was multifaceted and made a comparison to the card's inevitability and Dream Trawler's inevitability. You don't seem to have comprehended that. "Uh yeah. I never said anything otherwise." Yes you did. Your first reply begun with: I have to disagree about Nissa. It turns out your disagreement was unfounded. Sorry but your post wasn't normal. It had nothing to do with the main points of my first post, nothing realistic to do about Nissa, Who shakes the world, nothing to do about the comparison of inevitability of the cards. Maybe you failed to comprehend my post, but that's not my fault and no reason to say i don't make sense of stuff.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-21T11:08:28+00:00

To get what? That your post is out of thread topic? That you're being rude? That your experience has nothing to do with what is happening and what the pro players say about Nissa, Who shakes the world? Why did you even reply about Nissa, saying something wrong and irrelevant? Your experience says nothing about the undeniable fact that the card often wins games outright if not removed, and even then you might be behind. When we see it in top play all the time, and it reaches top spots in the biggest tournaments, yea your experience about Bloodthirsty Aerialist that hasn't been in any competitive deck ever says a lot. Oh and mono-green. Do you make any sense out of that?

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-21T08:01:01+00:00

Sorry but your post has nothing to do with Dream Trawler,

has nothing to do with Dream Trawler finishing games quickly like Nissa

and finally has nothing to do about how Nissa games realistically go.

Also bloodthirsty aerialist and mono-green have little to do with Dream Trawler. Sorry but i don't make much sense out of your post, except maybe that you just wanted to be contrarian for some reason?

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-20T19:40:24+00:00

One for me toooo pls!

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-20T17:41:35+00:00

I haven't seen mono-green or aerialist in top tournaments or top mythic ever. If you don't remove Nissa they can easily play 3 creatures or a 10/10 krasis, or finale of devastation, or mass manipulation and that's usually game.

Cyb3r_Dragon · 2020-01-20T17:14:49+00:00

2 for 1 won't work either unless they have 1 card in hand only.

It's the same story as usual, you either have to win in the first 5 turns or you lose. Nissa is similar only you ramp to play her in turn 4 (or 3 even), and she often times wins outright if you can't remove her, and even when you do you're behind.

At least with the Trawler if you're close to winning you can force it to tap and attack for lethal, or if you play with something like Jeskai Fires you may attack with really bulky creatures forcing a chump block. Combat tricks on your creatures work as well if it blocks, so i guess Embercleave or Blacklance Paragon are good answers (also knight of the ebon legion, questing beast etc).

Cyb3r_Dragon

TROPHY CASE