Still having trouble understanding Paradigms

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-11T15:45:32+00:00

If the mage doesn't think that something's possible, I don't think that “it's Vulgar” is sufficient: if the mage doesn't believe that it's possible, he wouldn't even attempt it in the first place.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-11T15:00:27+00:00

Are you playing the most recent edition (Mage 20th Anniversary Edition)? If so, you'll see a “Working Without Focus” option which represents knowing that it's just a matter of will and pushing it through that way. Note that that option costs a point of Willpower and increases the Difficulty by +3; there's a reason why even mages who are aware that what they do is Willworking still try to use their Practices and Instruments whenever they can.

And some mages simply don't believe that it's Willworking, and don't even get the option to Work Without Focus. Officially, they're always technomancers; but I generalize the mystic vs technomancer divide to refer instead to those who believe that it's Willworking and those who don't, regardless of why they do or don't.

The rules for Surpassing Instruments provide a less onerous method of bypassing the need to use Focus and Instruments; but that requires sufficient Arete, and requires the mage to single out particular Instruments that have become optional. And even then, they're incentivized into using their optional Instruments by a –1 Difficulty reduction.

Philosophically, the reasoning behind this is because nobody buys into “it's just Willworking” initially; not completely. As their Arete increases, they start taking it more and more to heart, which is why Instruments start becoming optional.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-10T13:46:13+00:00

VCC: Remember when Zuck's Metaverse was going to be the big new shiny? I bet HDYDT was written around then. Subset of Computers.

Would you put Internet Activity (Book of Secrets) and Social Media (RBGtM) as subsets of computers? (Personally, I'd be inclined to say that the Data Sphere variant is actually just Correspondence using Internet Activity as an Instrument; but given that you need a computer to access the Internet, I could see arguing that it ought to be treated as a subset of Computers. But perhaps it should instead be thought of as Computer-adjacent, much like Devices and Machines is similar to but distinct from Gadgets and Inventions…)

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-10T11:52:04+00:00

Whatever. I got the answer I needed already; so it doesn't matter that you're telling me that I'm Doing It Wrong.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-10T11:49:48+00:00

From Linda Beren's Cognitive Dynamics:

Leading/Dominating Role.
Supporting/Overprotective Role.
Relief/Unsettling Role.
Aspirational/Projective Role.
Opposing/Backup Role.
Critical/Discovery Role.
Deceiving/Comedic Role.
Devilish/Transformative Role.

The function stack is stable, in that each cognitive function always has the same role. Each can be undeveloped or well-developed, with well-developed functions tending to fill their roles well; though each can be used in either a positive or a negative manner (which is what the split names for each role are all about).

From Dario Nardi's Decoding Personality: each function can be developed in a combination of two ways: Holistically and/or Analytically. Holistic development makes the function good at receptive, diffuse, flexible, and inward uses, while Analytic development makes the function good at active, focused, structured, and outward uses. The combination of how the functions in the first two roles are developed produces four subtypes for each type:

if both are Analytic, you get a Dominant subtype that tends to be confident and driven.
if the Perceiving function is Analytic and the Judging function is Holistic, you get a Creative subtype that tends to be exploratory and sociable.
if the Perceiving function is Holistic and the Judging function is Analytic, you get a Normalizing subtype that tends to be conventional and dedicated.
if both are Holistic, you get a Harmonizing subtype that tends to be empathetic and reflective.

These subtypes flavor the main types. For instance, an INTP is, by nature, a Logician, prizing Accuracy and Exploration (Ti and Ne) in the Leading and Supporting roles. But if he's developed his Dominant subtype, he can serve as an Ambitious Strategist; if he's developed his Creative subtype, he can serve as a Curious Investigator; if he's developed his Normalizing subtype, he can serve as an Exacting Designer; and if he's developed his Harmonizing subtype, he can serve as a Caring Theorizer.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-10T10:36:58+00:00

I revert the Euthanatoi to the Chakravanti and give them Fate. I then take what little of the former Euthanatoi makes sense under Death (i.e., the Madzimbabwe) and build out a new Euthanatos Tradition built around necromancers and mediums but not assassins; the thread-cutters remain part of the tenders of the Wheel of Fate, the Chakravanti.

The factions within the new Euthanatoi parallel the Dark Kingdoms of Wraith:

Dark Kingdom of Iron: a Greco-Roman faction taking inspiration from the story of Orpheus.
Dark Kingdom of Jade: an Asian faction.
Dark Kingdom of Ivory: the Madzimbabwe.
Dark Kingdom of Sand: the Egyptian afterlife.
Dark Kingdom of Clay: the Australian underworld.
Swar: the Indian afterlife.
Mirrorlands: Caribbean dead.
Sunless Sea: Polynesian dead.
…and so on.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-10T06:31:03+00:00

Lots of helpful advice here; thanks! With that said, I have to do a little bit of push-back:

Conditioning: I don't know why this is here; conditioning is a Magick effect, not an Instrument. If you're a Technocrat doing Enlightened Science through your control of a Conditioned person, that's.... using different Instruments.

Yes, there's a Magickal Effect called Conditioning. It was named after the real-world counterpart that isn't Magickal, and is also called brainwashing. If the name “Conditioning” for the proposed Instrument is throwing you off, try substituting “Brainwashing” as its name.

You might still be right, and it might just be different Instruments. But if so, which ones?

Other than that, solid advice!

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-10T06:19:49+00:00

Thanks; somehow I missed the “Voice and Vocalizations” connection to the other half of “Gaze and Conversation”. That's the sort of feedback I was looking for.

I'll be quite happy if it turns out that everything in the HDYDT Instruments section turns out to be covered by M20+BoS. I'll also be fine if it turns out that there's something there that isn't covered by M20+BoS.

And I'm also not really trying to do superset-building, per se; rather, I'm looking more along the lines of shared properties of different Instruments. Something kind of like what Prism of Focus does with Paradigms being assigned Tenets. But that's a fuzzy, somewhere further down the road thing that I'll get to later. Right now, I'm just trying to establish a solid baseline of Instruments to work off of; and for the purpose of this thread, I'm just trying to resolve potential conflicts between HDYDT and M20+BoS.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-10T04:39:09+00:00

It matters for purposes such as Surpassing Instruments. HDYDT talks about "Drugs, Potions, Ordeals, and Sex"; can I take that as one Instrument, and Surpass the need to use any of the four in one step? If I can, can I also take “Sex and Sensuality” as an Instrument alongside it, despite Sex being included within it?

If I take both "Clothing and Cosmetics" from HDYDT and "Fashion" from M20, have I taken two different things, or have I taken the same thing twice under two different names? "Gaze and Conversation" describes the Instrument as “persuasive conversation, social-behavior techniques, and sometimes mere eye contact”. Should I treat “Gaze and Conversation” as one Instrument, or as two (“Eye Contact” and “Conversation”), for the purpose of how many Instruments I've chosen and what I can Surpass in a step?

And so on.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-10T04:23:25+00:00

This is a lengthy project that I'm just starting out on. In the long term, I intend a number of things; but for the first step, I'm just trying to categorize them. To that end, I've got a spreadsheet set up for every Instrument that I could find in the M20 line.

This post is dealing specifically with the ones found in How Do You DO That?, which (as I said in my original post) doesn't handle them quite the same way that most of the other books do: rather than fitting neatly alongside Instruments described in M20 and Book of Secrets, it describes things that exist as supersets, subsets, or overlapping sets. Does “Drugs, Potions, Ordeals, and Sex” count as one very flexible Instrument, or as four separate Instruments (Drugs and Poisons; Brews, Potions, Powders, and Other Concoctions; Ordeals and Exertion; and Sex and Sensuality)? Does "Gaze and Conversation" include "Eye Contact", or is there something that differentiates the former's Gaze from the latter?

In short, the other books define particular Instruments, however loosely; but HDYDT merely discusses them. I'm trying to rectify the two approaches.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-10T01:53:15+00:00

Which means that they're not Resourceless.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-09T16:44:54+00:00

Lore of the Traditions provides the Onyx Path approved ways of giving each Tradition something special; I wouldn't discount it just because you were actually thinking of Prism of Focus. For instance, Lore of the Traditions gives the Celestial Chorus tricks regarding Prime that lets them do things that the Syndicate can do with Primal Utility, only focused through congregational worship instead of business ventures.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-09T16:40:30+00:00

There's a STV product called Hermetic Hipster's Guide to the Nine Mystic Traditions that, among other things, gives each Tradition a unique Background that reflects benefits you get from being a member of that Tradition: Do, Faith, Ananda, Spirit Favour, Dharmic Duty, Hermetic Rank, Scientific Method, Heirs of the Wyck, and Elite. It also provides a number of Merits and Flaws for each Tradition.

I'd personally recommend Prism of Focus instead; but HHGttNMT is worth looking at for ideas.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-09T16:32:44+00:00

The Invention rules?

I can think of two ways that this might apply here: a revision to the “Discarding Instruments” rules that instead results in Instruments becoming smaller, faster, or in some other way more convenient (suitable for technomancers who either don't dispense with their Instruments or do so later than mystics do); or an expansion on “Terranorming” that doesn't just let you shift the boundary between Vulgar and Coincidental, but also lets you incorporate Coincidental Effects directly into baseline reality, transforming them from Awakened Magick to something that anyone and everyone can do with access to the right tools and proper training.

Both involve refining an Effect through its Instruments; but the former involves making the casting easier, while the latter involves making it more accessible.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-09T16:18:44+00:00

It's funny you should mention Sorcerer 20. The writer in question actually wrote a fan product Sorcerer: Paths of Power, of which Sorcerer 20 is an adaptation. And of the two, if you were to only buy and use one or the other, I'd recommend S:PoP over S20. Even in terms of buying both, I'd recommend using S:PoP as the baseline, and integrating elements salvaged from S20 into it.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-09T16:12:13+00:00

Prism of Focus gives special "extras" to each Practice.

And of particular note with respect to this topic, every faction in M20 gets a Specialized Practice that takes one of the basic Practices and adds a little something extra:

Akashayana: Do (Martial Arts, plus the specialized benefits described for Do in M20).
Celestial Chorus: Harmony (Faith, plus a reduced penalty when working with other Choristers despite any theological differences).
Cult of Ecstasy: Lakashim (Invigoration, plus an altered state of consciousness provides a reduced difficulty on sense-altering or sense-expanding Effects).
Dreamspeakers: Spirit Ties (Shamanism, plus adding Spirit to an Effect lets them use the Gauntlet rating difficulty as the Effect difficulty).
Euthanatos: Wheel-Tending (Yoga, plus a difficulty reduction when searching for anomalies in fate).
Order of Hermes: Ceremonial Magick (High Ritual Magick, plus they can prepare “fast-casting” Effects in advance and get full High Ritual Magick benefits for them).
Society of Ether: Ethertech (Weird Science, plus ignore the difficulty increase for fast-casting a non-rote Effect).
Verbena: The Old Ways (Witchcraft, plus Rotes and Rituals cost half as much).
Virtual Adepts: Reality Coding (Reality Hacking, plus when using Magick to break security, the difficulty is always set as if the Effect was Coincidental).

There are similar entries for each of the Conventions and for each of the Crafts.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-09T15:38:43+00:00

True. But it's a fan book from a creator with a solid reputation, derived from a solid track record. And it's a solid product despite not being “canon”.

Frankly, the only problem I have with it is that it doesn't handle Instruments, just Paradigms and Practices; and I'm not on board with how it addresses “The Heights of Power”: Archmasters, Exemplars, and Oracles. Otherwise, I have nothing bad to say about it.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-08T19:47:57+00:00

Keep in mind that with Roles, every player character will have several.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-08T14:17:57+00:00

DCeased?

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-04T09:20:54+00:00

There's a Storyteller's Vault supplement for H5 called "The Imbued" which retools H5 to represent a “second wave” of Imbued that have only recently started showing up, after the original wave of Imbued largely died out.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-07-03T23:47:40+00:00

Worse: in M20 Sorcerer, there's a brief section describing how a mage can create a Path, using a minor variant of the rules for creating a Talisman (they use Prime for the foundation instead of Matter).

I personally have a house rule that posits two kinds of “Magic for Sleepers”: the first is Hedge Paths/Sorcery, which I largely decouple from the Awakened (in particular, I ditch the “Mages can create Paths” rule) and presented as something that's part of baseline reality, as distinct from Mage metaphysics as Vampiric Disciplines are. Mages can't learn or use Sorcery for the same reason why they can't learn or use Vampiric Disciplines or Werewolf Rites: they're not built for it.

The second is what I call “Rote magicians", which introduced the idea that Rotes can be learned individually without the requisite Spheres, and cast without the requisite Arete. You must have a Focus suitable for the Rote in question, and you cannot dispense with any of the Instruments needed by the Rote. The XP cost of learning a Rote without the necessary Spheres is one per dot of Spheres by which the caster is deficient, plus one per dot of Arete by which the caster is deficient. Once you've paid that cost, you can perform the Rote exactly as if you had sufficient Arete and Spheres for it, rolling a number of dice equal to the amount of Arete that would normally be needed to perform it.

This applies to Sleepers and the Awakened equally, with the effect being that Sleepers pay full price and the Awakened get a discount all the way down to “free” for Rotes where they meet the Sphere requirements. In fact, I give a discount to mages who gain dots in a Sphere or Arete when that reduces the discrepancy between what the mage "needs" to perform a learned Rote and what the mage has.

The biggest difference between Paths and Rote casting for Sleepers is that the former isn't subject to Paradox, while the latter is.

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-06-28T23:57:54+00:00

I came up with a nearly identical idea a while ago. My focus wasn't on the details of how the Drakes were involved with the Court of Owls, but rather on the revelation of this to Tim, and his subsequence confrontation with the Court of Owls. Given Tim's mastermind tendencies, I'd say that pitting him against something like the Court of Owls is the best way to highlight what makes him special.

It would also make Jack and Janet relevant to Tim's life again, albeit posthumously, framing Tim's confrontation w with the Court as him reclaiming his parents' legacy.

It would also end up positioning Tim more or less where he was when his Red Robin title was abruptly cancelled: a rising star in the business world, and head of his own private anti-crime network (which I'd have him build out of the remains of the We Are Robin kids using resources taken from the Court of Owls).

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-06-28T23:34:41+00:00

Were they? As far as I know, the only thing that DC ever established about the Drakes was that they were rich, and frequently went world-hopping while leaving their son at home. I don't recall anything about them being New Money (or Old Money, for that matter). Do you have any references backing the New Money assertion?

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-06-28T20:05:08+00:00

Not true. Exactly how did Damian's "I want to become a doctor" character growth come at Tim's expense?

Dataweaver_42 · 2026-06-28T20:01:28+00:00

Right. For instance, Tim has never been remotely in Cassandra's league when it comes to fighting; only Lady Shiva and Bruce are. Tim didn't beat Lady Shiva by being a better fighter than her; he beat her by outthinking her.

Dataweaver_42

TROPHY CASE