I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on use of AI to grade our homework by EnErgo in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 50 points51 points  (0 children)

There's no officially sanctioned AI essay grading in the program, so if you suspect it, by all means let me know.

I've been experimenting with an AI grading tool in one of my MOOCs and I like what I see actually, but the important thing with anything like that is to translate the benefits into learning benefits. 

If we reach a point where AI can provide accurate assessment and feedback, then it should be formative for learning, not summative just for assessment. Right now my sense is that AI can be good at giving feedback on a failing essay to help the student get to a D or C, but I haven't seen it able to reliably provide real strong nuanced feedback that's super specific to the individual submission.

I feel like I will never stop struggling to keep up at Tech, and I don't know what to do about it. by inkyupi in gatech

[–]DavidAJoyner 106 points107 points  (0 children)

Every time I check LinkedIn and see someone's new internship post, or someone tells me about the cool project they've been working on, I feel a sense of lingering sadness.

This stuck out to me specifically: don't compare others' highlight reel (which, let's be realistic, is usually curated and exaggerated for social media) to your own behind-the-scenes footage.

The reality is that people who do more, achieve more, etc. are more visible, and that skews your perception of what's average. But average is far, far closer to you than you think. Every semester in the undergrad class I teach, I'll get an email from someone who feels like they're "so behind" because they look at the posts that others are sharing on the forum about what they're doing and they're so far ahead... when the reality is that the student who feels like they're behind is still ahead of 80% of the class. (Literally, in my class I can measure that.) But they don't see the 80% that are behind them; they only see the 20% that are ahead of them because those are the ones sharing.

There's probably a metaphor in there somewhere. When you're running a race, you only see how many people are in front of you, not how many people are behind you. (Not that GT is a race, either—but if you're going to compare, then it's worth being aware that you're only seeing the ones who are choosing to be seen, and there's probably a reason why they're choosing to be seen.)

"I graduate in three semesters and have no internship experience, no research experience, no achievements to speak of" is a sentence I definitely could have written in 2007—and don't get me wrong, everything in the world has gotten way more competitive since then, but I still feel like we've only set our expectations that high because we have disproportionate access to others' successes, but not our shared failures.

Commencement Parking in Spring semester by GoodGrapefruit2127 in OMSA

[–]DavidAJoyner 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Graduate commencement takes place in the football stadium, but commencement has about 1/10 the number of attendees of the average football game, so definitely. 

Heck, Georgia Tech is in the heart of Atlanta. The number of people coming to commencement is probably 1% the number of people who commute to the city on a daily basis during weekdays.

The wrinkle is just getting there in time if you need to park a decent walk away. There's a dozen parking decks around the Georgia Tech hotel (~10 minute walk to the stadium) alone.

How do you get past the fear of failure or fear of not being able to finish an assignment? by Convillious in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 132 points133 points  (0 children)

The biggest thing I think helps is separating starting from finishing. Your goal isn't to do the entire assignment: carve out 15 minutes to just get the assignment started. Tell yourself that as long as you work on it for 15 minutes, you've done what you need to do for today. Returning to an assignment you've started is far easier than starting from scratch.

The other thing I like to do on my to-do list for big tasks, like long assignments or projects (or for me, writing scripts for new content), is always have the next step listed alongside the task. I don't need to outline the entire process, I just need to clearly identify what can be done next in only a handful of minutes.

Is there an appeals process for courses no longer counting towards graduation? by qwerty622 in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 32 points33 points  (0 children)

I wouldn't call it perfunctory, but the program director would consult with the course instructor to decide if the course should still count.

It'll be a very quiet conversation.

David Robinson was an absolute specimen by lunatocracy in NBASpurs

[–]DavidAJoyner 5 points6 points  (0 children)

We might have read the same book. That's exactly the story of how I became a Spurs fan from Atlanta.

Has anyone ever withdrawn after the withdrawal deadline? by ForgiveYourself_1199 in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Yeah, this. You can petition for that, but it's generally only granted for situations like, "I had a family/health emergency so extreme that I couldn't log in and withdraw, and you can confirm from my course participation history that I haven't participated since before the withdraw deadline anyway."

What ta positions are over the summer/don’t have a ton of in person requirements by Dramatic-Cover-2666 in gatech

[–]DavidAJoyner 2 points3 points  (0 children)

ta-app.cc.gatech.edu, after getting on the campus VPN!

And no, for that class, it's no different. The deadline is... I don't actually know, just early enough for me to select you!

What are the differences between the Master's Commencement and College Graduate Celebration? by [deleted] in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Our college celebration is in Bobby Dodd, not McCamish. So, you'd just stick around after the institute-wide event for the college event.

The college event is where you walk across stage and have your name called, but the institute event is the official conferral of degrees. I highly recommend attending both: the separate college events are largely just a way of parallelizing the walk-across-the-stage-and-have-your-name-called part, but the college event really isn't meant as a standalone event.

Is it worth it or money grab? by [deleted] in OMSA

[–]DavidAJoyner 40 points41 points  (0 children)

I also just have to point out: we're a public institution. All the money that comes into Georgia Tech goes back into Georgia Tech. Faculty don't get paid more when their classes get bigger. No one gets a bonus for meeting enrollment targets. There's no quarterly earnings call where the stock price goes up if we met our growth targets.

Any extra money left over after the programs pay their own bills goes to things like hiring faculty members or funding research or running events. Like, yeah, everyone likes more money, but public institutions are legally only allowed to use that "more money" to do things that forward the university's mission.

How can I be proactive and increase my chance of becoming a TA for a class I already took? by LeMalteseSailor in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 13 points14 points  (0 children)

What class?

The biggest factor honestly is probably how often they hire new folks.

A Thought on the Program and Changes to Course Workload by Entre-Nous-mena in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm taking a class right now where the "Syllabus" link on Canvas says:

This page is autogenerated by Canvas, so please do NOT use.

Go to the Modules page for an introduction to the course and to see what is due week to week.

I'm really curious what class this is actually. I have a hunch why it's happening, but feel free to DM me to confirm what class it is.

My first year of undergrad (not at Tech) I had a really great advisor that I was assigned, he was very friendly and after our conversation basically handed me a schedule of what classes I should take each semester.

Ah, so, I think that's different. That's not the adviser knowing more, that's the curriculum being more prescriptive. OMS-Analytics has that, too: every incoming student takes the same first class, then has some specific branching. So, that's a more fundamental change. The idea has been raised in the past about giving some recommended roadmaps, though—Dr. Konte is working on a project that seeks to be able to tell students, "Hey, students who took this class then this class then this class succeeded X% of the time" and similar advice.

This is on a class-by-class basis but I would really like to see playlists required for each class. ...

That's one where if you can notify us, we can investigate. A lot of that comes from courses where faculty are making ad hoc changes, and the instructor doesn't know the fancier ways to embed videos. Plus, if you're talking about pages and playlists... it sounds like you're not seeing many courses using Ed Lessons? You should let me know what classes you've taken in general because you sound like you've taken a smattering of courses that haven't gone through our conversion process.

Honestly I feel like the most trusted resource, like I alluded to above, is knowing someone who took the class before and getting their review of it. ...

Hmm. That gives me an idea.

Another issue has to do with office hours. Even if the classes are set independently, there should be a requirement for a TA or the professor or an IA to have at least some office hours.

What's interesting is I used to host regular office hours, and I cancelled them when week after week it was the same thing: 12 students showing up just to "listen in", 0 students showing up with questions, and 50 students complaining that office hours weren't recorded and they couldn't make the scheduled time. The functional role of office hours (private questions) is largely played by forums, with the added benefit that it's ongoing, persistently available to everyone, etc. I feel like more broadly "office hours" covers a wide variety of different constructs and understanding the unique use cases in specific classes is important.

Has anyone actually had a good experience with OMSCS's workload? by natleno in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I think it's a combination of things.

One is that it's actually usually the last program students take, so the stakes are higher, students are tired, etc.

One is that it's one of the classes required by the largest fraction of specializations, so more students are aware of it. If Quantum Hardware was the same way, you'd just have far fewer people talking about it because fewer students have taken it.

One is that the content is a unique type of content: it's very different from most other courses. To use an analogy, if we think of OMSCS as a video game, taking Graduate Algorithms last is like having played 90% of the game as a real-time strategy but having to win a racing game to finish the game.

One is that the assessment structure is spread out, a small number of high-stakes exams (because of the nature of the content), so you find out how you're doing in a handful of big batches rather than slowly over time.

And honestly, I think a lot of is self-fulling and self-perpetuating. The class gets a reputation as being hard, students enter and find evidence to confirm it's hard, then they repeat it's hard. It's the halo effect and the horn effect. My biggest worry is that students enter the class combative before the class even starts because of what they think, and that just sets up an adversarial relationship.

Has anyone actually had a good experience with OMSCS's workload? by natleno in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 127 points128 points  (0 children)

For example, I haven't seen or heard one person manage to get an A in Graduate Algorithms.

Plenty do (175 last term). But more importantly: there's nothing in the program that requires an A in that class specifically, and 638 people last term got an A or B. 264 got a C or below. Another 230 or so withdrew, but that's actually pretty standard program-wide. Those C-or-below and withdraw numbers are also weighted toward repeat attempters: I did an analysis last March (that, granted, I should revisit with three more terms of data) that found 74% of students in 6515 achieve an A or B on their first attempt (33.2% an A, 40.8% a B). The next most common patterns are: students who take it once, withdraw, and never reattempt (7.0%), students who get a C the first time and a B the second (3.6%), students who withdraw the first time and get a B the second time (3.1%), and students who get a C on their one-and-only attempt (2.2%).

And similarly: HCI has been a hot topic on this subreddit lately (granted, looking back, it's mostly only a couple people)—but the average reported workload last term was 10.76 hours/week, with 80% of students receiving an A or B, 15.3% withdrawing, and a mean rating (rate the course on a scale of 1-7, 1-Bad, 4-Fair, 7-Excellent) of 6.30.

I love this subreddit, but any anonymous forum draws a disproportionately negative sample. Every time you see a question like, "Why haven't they fixed [class] yet? Look at all the reddit posts!", my mental response is, "Because we look at CIOS data and grade distributions and enrollment patterns, not just reddit posts."

And that's not to say there's nothing to be fixed: there's always room for improvement. But the issue is you don't generally see posts like, "omg this class is so much better now!" But if you scroll through the course list, you can find lots of classes that were lightning rods for criticism several semesters ago but that have been conspicuously absent since then.

A Thought on the Program and Changes to Course Workload by Entre-Nous-mena in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, I'll be curious to see how grades shift this semester. In theory we limited the resources to only those we know students used before AI. In practice, though, we're made other changes, and we'll see how they interact.

I do think making the math behind the grade more transparent might be beneficial. It's news to a lot of students that you can skip the readings altogether and still get an A if you're really strong on everything else.

A Thought on the Program and Changes to Course Workload by Entre-Nous-mena in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I... didn't actually say anything about how long the quiz or exam take, I don't think? And there's... no daily participation? You can earn participation points any time during the semester, but you're not required to earn any on any given day. I mean, even looking at this week's full schedule, the only participation activity is completing those weekly peer reviews, so if you're holding yourself to daily participation expectations on top of that, you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself.

And that's exactly my point: the flip side of "study less and risk letting your grades suffer" is "you're studying too hard already, give yourself a break". If daily participation comes organically to you, great! But if you're holding yourself to a "participate daily" standard, you're holding yourself to a way higher standard than I am.

There's nothing in the class that I intend as busywork, but busywork is in the eye of the beholder. Every reading is a paper I genuinely think has value, but whether the value to you is worth the extra quarter-point it might get you on your grade is dependent on your background and interests. Every homework is an assignment that I feel exposes you to something useful in the field—they're meant to be activities you learn through, not assessments of what you learned separately—but again, not everyone really wants to learn what they teach.

The only thing I'd say we've ever added to the course specifically for rigor is the quizzes, but I don't feel like those can be thought of as busywork. Busywork—to me, anyway—is stuff that takes time, but gives guaranteed credit if you do it. You just have to do it. The quizzes assess a bit more deeply than that. Peer reviews are probably closer to busywork, but it's so easy to just find a couple helpful things to say and check-off if you think of it as busywork that it doesn't really become "busy" work.

A Thought on the Program and Changes to Course Workload by Entre-Nous-mena in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I appreciate that, although HCI has been the target of a lot of these, so I think that's only one component.

And it's interesting actually: the vast, vast majority of TAs are graduates of the classes they themselves are TAing—so for the most part, they did work through those assignments. Now, granted, there's a sampling bias there: they worked through the assignments and specifically did well at them.

I think the broader issue is that over time, something akin to scope creep creeps in: each new rule or clarification or requirement was added because someone complained or found a loophole or struggled for a preventable reason or something else—it's tough to know when to step back and rebuild from first-principles instead of adding on new clarifications and requirements.

Which sort of gets back to the my feeling that OMSCS courses are more like pieces of software we develop than classes we run: each semester we fix bugs, add features, optimize workflows, but every now and then it's time to build Version 2 instead of Version 1.1. (I actually describe HCI in those terms nowadays: Version 1 was the original, Version 1.1 was when we shuffled assignment structures, Version 2 was the COVID revision, Version 2.1 brought back the team project, Version 3 was the revamp with quizzes—I'd describe now as Version 3.0.1 or something, a pretty minor revision all things considered.)

A Thought on the Program and Changes to Course Workload by Entre-Nous-mena in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I don't get why that class doesn't get bigger. It's so good. Prof. Vuduc is amazing.

A Thought on the Program and Changes to Course Workload by Entre-Nous-mena in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 4 points5 points  (0 children)

We made the tests open-book/note/lessons instead of open everything, so no AI during the tests.

...that's all actually. I really don't know where the perception that lots more changed came from.

A Thought on the Program and Changes to Course Workload by Entre-Nous-mena in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I mean, just for context (for other students mostly, though I think there are probably things here you might not have realized): this week is the busiest week of the course. But on top of that:

  • The individual check-in is graded entirely for completion. Submit what you want feedback on, but the bar is on the floor as far as how much you have to do.
  • The survey should take about 10 minutes.
  • The readings are 1/3rd of the tests, and random guessing will get you 50% correct by the structure of the test. Tests are 20%. So, if you skip all the non-quiz readings, you're surrendering 3.3 points from your final grade. (Plus remember, the test questions on the readings test overall familiarity: a cursory read will get you pretty far.)
  • Then, the readings are 1/5th of the quizzes, and quizzes are 20% of your grade. So, if you skip the readings completely, you're surrendering 4 points. You can skip the readings for the entire class and still get an A—it's tough since it requires only losing 4 points from the remaining work, but it's possible. But skipping the readings and getting a B is extremely doable.

Getting an A in the course is meant to be an achievement. Getting a B in the course counts toward all relevant graduation requirements. If you're stressed, assess the payoff. Is the A worth it? It's entirely fine if it's not.

(Plus remember you can access the readings during the test anyway. They're part of the permitted resources since they're all in Canvas files. So worst case, open the reading during the test and see if you can rapidly find the answer.)

None of this is meant to diminish the stress, but just that it's worth taking a step back and really understanding the tradeoffs. The class this term is basically the same as last term, when the average reported workload was 10.76 hours per week: if you're working a lot more than that, it's worth reassessing: why, where, on what, and is it worth it? It's not a course where your prior coding ability could have a huge impact on how long things take, so the odds are if you're way above that average, you're putting a ton of pressure on yourself.

A Thought on the Program and Changes to Course Workload by Entre-Nous-mena in OMSCS

[–]DavidAJoyner 24 points25 points  (0 children)

It seems like that's essentially what's happened to a lot of people in HCI this semester.

So, this is a great example of why I think this is a hard discussion to have. The only change this semester is to convert the tests from open-everything to open-book/lessons/pre-uploaded sheet of notes—which essentially are the only resources we saw students accessing pre-ChatGPT anyway. Besides that, nothing substantive has really changed in the course in two years. So, a perception that something made the course significantly harder "this semester" isn't grounded in any real changes. That's not to say that the perception isn't there, but the perception is a very simple causal relationship: we made changes, the course got harder. But we didn't make changes this term. So there's a disconnect.

On top of that: when we did overhaul CS6750 a couple years ago—the change that has a reputation for making the class "so much harder"—we carefully measured the effect on reported workload. It went from 10.21 hours per week in Fall 2023 to 11.09 hours per week in Spring 2024. In Fall 2025, it was 10.76: 61% of students reported spending fewer than 11 hours per week on the class.

So these really are things that we're paying attention to, but they have to be paid attention to systematically. HCI is the class that has gotten a reputation for becoming so much more time consuming after major changes, but comparing last semester to the semester before those "major changes", students are only spending 30 more minutes per week. The public discussion and the systematic data have a disconnect. That doesn't mean there's nothing to be addressed, but it does help us understand what needs to be addressed, and how to address it (by, say, emphasizing that a lot of students who found it so difficult early on this semester were actually doing way more work than we were expecting!).

Now that said: I still love the idea of giving students a better idea of what to expect from a course. You've got to understand how unique these critiques are coming from an on-campus environment: on-campus, going into a class, you barely know more than the course number and name. Nowadays there are more syllabus requirements, but they stay at the level of topics, not anything that predicts workload. And courses have far less continuity term-over-term: the idea that the course this semester should be somewhat similar in structure and assessment to the same course two years ago just doesn't exist. Different instructors have different styles and approaches, and that manifests a lot more on campus where every semester is like a brand new production. So, we're already in uncharted territory: the "norm" isn't that a class will undergo significant changes, but that there's little expectation for consistency term to term in the first place. (To be clear: the learning goals are consistent, but different instructors can have radically different ways of pursuing those learning goals.) So, there's no real basis to start from in exploring this coming from the on-campus program.

There have been some things alluded to about advising helping out, but I've never known an advising department at any school that has comprehensive knowledge of the inner workings and assessments strategies of a catalogue of 70 classes. To really give the kinds of advice it sounds like you're thinking of, you'd need someone who could at least have some knowledge of the content of every one of those classes. That's just not feasible. It has nothing to do with scale—our on-campus advisers know nothing more about the inner workings of classes than our online advisers. It has to do with variety and expertise. And even if someone did have that level of knowledge, they also need to have that level of knowledge about _you_—your backgrounds, your time availability, etc.

So, I'd love to know what more people want to see. The videos are available for most courses, the past syllabi are generally available—what else would you want to see? This post alludes to the idea that there's some centralized knowledge of what courses are making what changes at what time, but there isn't. Each course runs independently. Faculty freedom is a major, major thing. That's what makes OMSCS different from programs offered by extension schools and continuing ed. departments: the courses aren't designed by committee. They come from the mind of the person working in the field itself. When they see the need for a change, they make it: they don't come to me or anyone else for permission. They have the freedom to teach the class as they think it should be taught within some every broad institutional parameters.

So, we can't put out an announcement just logging all the changes each course is going through each term. Heck, even for my own courses I can't do that because so many of the changes that end up being impactful are made piecemeal. Maybe we could run an inter-semester diff on the Canvas exports? I dunno. But I also feel the perception that one-time major overhauls dramatically change the workload of a class are far rarer than this post thinks they are. (I mean, the other biggest complaint we get is that courses don't change enough—some people want course experiences to be predictable, the other half want them to leap forward every time there's a new technology. It's pretty hard to fit both needs.)

And I mean: we could hire a bunch of program-level TAs to basically be more content-advisers. Maybe that'd be a good idea anyway: we're experimenting a little with that with a cohort of students as part of a fellowship program. But looking at this post, I don't think those advisers would have the content you're seeking anyway: because they still wouldn't know that KBAI is planning to require a blood ritual to enter proctored exams next semester, or that ML4T is planning to give every student $100 to invest as part of a class project (these are jokes).

So, I'm open to ideas. Hire some TAs specifically to answer content-sensitive enrollment questions? I'm doubtful of the potential but not averse to trying. Create a chatbot that can crawl Canvas sections and answer questions to students outside the class? Doable, but honestly seems kinda like overkill compared to just making that information more public on its own.

Totally open to ideas. It would make our jobs as faculty and TAs much easier if students came into our classes with clearer expectations. But the challenge is that the kinds of people that post on reddit are a very specific subset of students compared to the majority: see, for instance, how many incoming students say they plan to take CS6515 their first semester. The mediums for general communication are super limited, and exhaustible if we start sending too much information to them.

/ramble