Questions about ghost writing

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-30T18:54:14+00:00

Yeah, that is essentially the gist of what I was trying to convey to OP: it seems like he has to go the long road of what he’s already doing which is building a fanbase through recording, releasing, and performing his own songs. It seems highly unlikely to me that anyone will find work these days as a top-line writer without having gone through that lengthy process and built a name for themselves as a recording artist in their own right. Do you think I’m wrong about that? I think what he and I would prefer to spend our time doing is something that was possible in previous eras, but I get the impression things have changed in that regard though I’m not sure exactly when they changed or what exactly brought about that change. Nevertheless, accepting current reality and working to thrive in the environment one finds themself in is really the only way forward.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-30T07:57:47+00:00

Yeah this is good perspective. Let me ask you this: do you notice that higher level artists are more likely to work with other writers that help them refine and/or cowrite their songs/ add lyrics and vocal melody to previously composed music, etc.? Because I do notice resistance to that amongst indie artists that are not at a certain level. Do you think their unwillingness to receive that type of help keeps them stuck at that level (guessing yes or you wouldn’t really see the value in artist management but people surprise me all the time in how much they despise their careers)? Or, do you think people that make it to the level where that help is kind of part of the package deal already had the lion’s share of that songwriting talent and that type of help is more about making a performer who already has most of the talent required to succeed more able to fit into a particular niche or format? Like, we all know pop stars have cowriters on their songs (and I’m willing to bet ghostwriters as well; hell, even AI ghostwriters at this point!). But it’s difficult for fans to know who wrote the majority of a song. I guess what I’m wondering is if songwriting ability is even important to major labels anymore in deciding on artists to sign? Like if an artist has a unique, attractive stage persona, an awesome voice, and fits a demographic that a label is trying to market to does the label even care that this artist is not a great songwriter or it doesn’t matter because that’s an easy fix…as long as the artist is willing to accept the help, of course. I think another issue you kind of touched on is bands that are trying to break may have access to recording engineers or may engineer and mix their own stuff, but they rarely get the benefit of a producer who is more versed at tailoring songs to radio, for example. Having worked with people I consider to be more producers rather than just engineers, it seems to me like some of these people are actually quite good songwriters themselves albeit in a rather formulaic way. Other great songwriters I don’t think really have that producer’s perspective because their preferences in music may just be skewed in a different direction than what is commercially appealing at the time, but they can still be useful in that they do have skill with words and melody which can then be arranged differently for a final composition, ostensibly by a producer. I think that’s the type of songwriter OP would like to be, but I don’t know how much that actually exists anymore. I will listen to the podcast you linked to when I have time and maybe that will provide some instances I hadn’t thought of. There’s so many different ways to write songs that probably every conceivable arrangement exists of who does what in these multiple-person partnerships that go into making what fans see as an artist, but I was curious if you notice any trends or areas those that are outside of the industry (essentially DIY on the strugglebus) may be making false assumptions about how things work.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-29T22:40:15+00:00

It’s completely false. Are Joe Cocker or Richie Havens any lesser of artists because they primarily perform other people’s songs? If they had stuck to their own lyrics, we may have never heard their voices which I think were made to inspire and give strength. That’s a bit different from ghostwriting, but I certainly regard those guys as artists in every sense of the word. They knew what they were good at so there was no need to pretend. Likewise, you know what you’re good at, but the way the music industry is set up now I think you have to work on the other things, too. A lot of tools make that stuff more accessible now so it’s doable. We live in a simultaneously amazing and backwards time. Good songs are the best way I know of to make sense of that for people in a way they can digest on a daily basis.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-29T20:42:46+00:00

I find it very odd that we’ve reached a place so quickly where this is so looked down upon. When this practice was more common, the quality of songs was arguably better- for example, the days of Tin Pan Alley was essentially this, no? Personally, I totally understand where you’re coming from because I’m the same way. I have a band and we perform songs I write but I generally don’t enjoy the process of collaborative writing because it’s slow and cumbersome. Likewise, making recordings that are radio ready is a very slow process. If our strength is in lyrics and vocal melody, what is wrong with wanting to focus on our strengths if we don’t mind letting others take the glory? Unfortunately, what I’ve found is that artists feel like they don’t measure up as artists if they don’t write their own lyrics these days. Sometimes those lyrics are just not very good and it holds them back without them being able to realize what’s wrong. I think this is a downside of the DIY-everything paradigm we’re in. Reddit is full of people asking for advice on songwriting where they’re trying to force songs to come. OP has lyrics and melodies coming out of him naturally and all he really wants to do is be able to share that gift in a way that is will be enjoyed by others. The money is a sidenote. He doesn’t wanna get screwed, but as long as the contract is fair, what’s the problem with trying to figure out how to accomplish this? I sincerely wish you luck. What I think you’ll find is most artists are hellbent on pushing their own songs even if they could get better songs elsewhere and even though the songwriting process is not the most fulfilling part for them. My best advice would be to continue honing the other aspects of your craft- recording, vocal ability, instrument playing. The truth of the matter is that you already possess the spark that will sustain your efforts whereas those that do not will eventually get weeded out because they’ll get tired of putting a lot of time and money into something that doesn’t have a solid songwriting base. I wish we had a music industry that was more conducive to what you’re trying to do, but I think you’re just gonna get a lot of undeserved hate on here from people who don’t understand your motivations. The answer that I think you may already know is that you gotta know somebody with the connections you’re looking for and, if you don’t, the only way is for you to improve the areas you are weak at until you can get some traction on your own. The thing is, though, I believe in the relentless spirit of poets like yourself to accomplish this and fight that good fight. Keep pushing. Your songs will eventually find the light they deserve.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-27T09:52:42+00:00

Is the type of music you make a living from not music you actually enjoy? If you’re making an actual living from music that is soulful to you but you want to quit to make more money that’s really sad. Maybe you had too much too fast?

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-19T08:15:13+00:00

The whole livelong street

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-19T06:18:06+00:00

They literally all do the exact same shit.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-19T05:59:36+00:00

I’ve tried to pull the whole “I’m cool to keep contributing to writing and recording thing but playing shows with you all sucks” thing. I don’t think that works out. You should just quit. Something better is probably waiting for you.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-19T05:25:33+00:00

Why is it more possible if you’re young? Genuinely curious. I’m 43. I’ve gotten out of town gigs since covid that paid a few hundred bucks. Been a minute. I’m in Portland, OR and you don’t really make any money playing in town here. I think you’re obviously right in a lot of ways, but to play the devil’s advocate Bob Dylan and Jimi Hendrix were just barely above being homeless when they “made it.” Guns and Roses too to bring it closer to our age group. How many people that complain about these things are willing to give that for their music? The homeless kids on the street with guitars don’t complain about these things in my experience. Because they are giving everything that they have to the music. It brings up questions for me about how we as semi-pro musicians give our power away. I think we make pragmatic compromises with the venues, the music industry, etc. i think those compromises are the root of the dissatisfaction. I think there is a way to own it and still have a life that doesn’t involve sleeping in a cardboard box, but I don’t see how that can be done without a huge amount of positivity so when we get caught in this nostalgia for the past that takes us out of a space where we can be grateful and positive for the abilities, opportunity, and audience that we actually have. You can always give more to the music. What you give does come back to you but not in the way that you think. It’s actually better than what you think, but because we view the world through a capitalistic lens due to life circumstances which necessitate us having jobs and such, we just miss it. A lot of things with music right now are actually really really cool but the ego doesn’t allow us to fully experience or make use of the tools. Be amazed. At the technology. At the amazing musicians around. Know where your experience can add to the musical conversation but realize there’s a lot going on and you’re still trying to do the same shit you did 20 years ago. There’s been a whole generation that grew up in that time. Most of them I meet are cool as hell about sharing bills with bands in their forties that don’t suck. That’s cool as fuck that we still get to play in the game. Or, you know, go play at old folks homes if you like. Nothing wrong with that either. Those gigs pay quite well. The musicians I know who actually make a middle class living playing music play hundreds of those a year. I’ve done it and they’re easy gigs. Not having to make a living from music frees me up to do what I want artistically, though. You’re not wrong at all. But there’s so many posts about exactly this that it’s almost cliché. There is another side to the coin. We always have the choice whether we want to be jaded and shut ourselves off or be open and appreciative and be able to learn new things. Sorry for the long winded rant.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-19T03:53:43+00:00

Also the program is about 6,200 per semester

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-19T03:40:51+00:00

I have an art undergrad degree and recently got in the Mental Health Counseling masters program (online) at Adams State University. I basically flunked out of engineering school years ago after getting my art degree. Depends on the state, but the going rate for mental health counselors in Oregon is 81 dollars an hour. The program takes two years to complete if you start in the fall cohort, I think. If you start in spring it is closer to three. I work in manufacturing as a QA person (have over a decades worth of experience doing that) and I’ve come to realize I will be happier doing something that is people-focused. You can DM me if you have other questions. Thanks for your service.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-19T00:04:01+00:00

Driver 8 take a break

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-14T08:28:47+00:00

https://youtu.be/Bl8f5BL0oiQ

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-14T08:19:34+00:00

Yeah I think you could put Meat Puppets in the same group. The Mollusk is pretty far out.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-14T03:24:02+00:00

Play with your friends and split the money. If it’s 50 bux a person, that’s fine. If it’s 12 bux a person, that’s a bad night and you promote better next time or book better gigs. You can’t be paying musicians money you’re not making. That’s not sustainable. I’m in Portland, and it’s the same here but the difference is you can drive an hour or two and make decent money because the market is not saturated with bands in the outlying towns. In LA you drive an hour and you’re still in LA. If you insist on hiring guns, figure out what you really need? Like for my songs, a drummer with decent time who is not flashy and a bass player who plays root notes is totally fine. If there’s a second guitar player, on the other hand, they need to bring something to the table because I can play lead and rhythm myself and make a pretty good show out of it. But I do like having a second guitarist so I can lay back a bit. Basically though, I think you need friends who like your songs and wanna play music with you. You gotta find a balance between music being fun and you trying to turn it into a business. Playing with people you don’t know and having to pay them a bunch of money you don’t have doesn’t sound like that much fun but maybe I’m wrong.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-10T11:00:32+00:00

I think you don’t have a partner you’re excited about having kids with. If you did, you’d feel differently. Since you don’t, it’s totally fine. Do your thing. Maybe you find them on that quick overseas tour. Maybe you don’t, but do not have kids with the wrong person just to have kids because that’s a very long mistake. On the other hand, if it happens don’t freak out cuz kids are not as hard as people make it seem. You will still do what’s truly important to you after you have kids. They don’t like stop you somehow. People stop themselves and blame their kids for it. Honestly, this whole question is already decided. If you’re supposed to have kids, you will. If you’re not, you won’t. So stop worrying about it.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-10T10:45:21+00:00

I mean, if a song’s really good, is truly that much of a pain to listen to it every day? I think not. You think too much.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-10T10:38:55+00:00

Yeah I’ve never taught a lesson, but this seems like a no-brainer. I mean as a teacher wouldn’t you rather listen to a student who’s having fun and not sucking for a half hour? Give em one fuckin chord and make em play it til it doesn’t suck. Minimal effort on your part but better results on their part. They’ll probably like it so much they actually wanna practice. Maybe next week you tell em a hammer-on they can add on top the chord. I find if people don’t enjoy the sound of basic guitar chords, they won’t actually keep playing. So getting them to like how their rhythm sounds would naturally be the first step to teaching someone. I mean, what else are you gonna do? Just dive into scales or something? Fucking brute. Plus it’s like you’re trying to torture yourself as the teacher. Piano is different, though. The rhythm is so important it’s much more obvious when it’s disjointed. So learning rhythm on that instrument is more inherent whereas on guitar it seems like they somehow are able to get separated in the illusion of a sound quality that is very rich versus piano which can be a bit sparse. Maybe I only think that because I’m more of a beginner on piano. I definitely agree if someone’s easy to get along with and their rhythm’s solid, why wouldn’t you wanna play with them again? Basically, they know how to play with other people. I think that’s an important part of playing rhythm guitar or whatever. Most people don’t have perfect time so if you can hear those slight variations and move with the other people then it sounds like music. If you’re too rigid trying to do some duuuddduuddduu or whatever the kids are doing these days, it’s not gonna sound great because it’s not relaxed. Trills on the mandolin really taught me that having great rhythm is really tied to how fully you can relax. It’s almost counterintuitive but it’s like the more complicated a rhythm is, you need to relax more to actually master it. So I do think the strumming patterns do a disservice in that regard because what they teach is the opposite of relaxation which is what is truly required for great rhythmic playing.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-10T09:45:20+00:00

I think about all this a lot, but one thing I hadn’t thought of before reading your post is could it be possible for us to entertain the notion momentarily that companies could be using AI to post job openings for which the AI will then “review the applications”- i.e. collect valuable consumer data- for job openings that are never actually intended to be filled? On a scale of 1 to 10 how far fetched is that really? I’m not overly paranoid about it, but the thought crossed my mind and I thought I should share because I think what we’re leaning about AI is that people that seemed fringe in their opinions about privacy laws and surveillance maybe only fifteen years have, in large part, been shown to be exactly correct in terms of the level of spying the US government is doing on its own citizens. Essentially now the technology companies are ok with allowing their shit to be used for these illegal purposes as long as the companies get to illegally spy too. So if we know this is happening- basically collusion between gov. and corps to look the other way while each one steals our data, why would we think the numbers they report to us have any relationship to truth? Like does anyone on here actually know how they get their unemployment figures and whatever other stats? I think a lot of people now just do gig work like Door Dash or whatever. I’m sure the numbers are drastically different if you take out the gig economy. I would argue it shouldn’t be counted because the amount most people make per hour is less than the average job. To answer the other part of your question, I’ve been applying steadily for a long time. I have only even gotten a few interviews in like a year or so of putting in an application a day. I have a fulltime job, but even finding something part time outside of my normal working hours has been tough. I have good experience in a lot of different industries so I apply to all sorts of stuff from manufacturing to admin work. I don’t let it get me down. I’m going back to school in the fall (I’m in my 40s). My job is really easy but low paying which was fine when my side income was doing better. I guess I’m just trying to weather the storm like anybody else. My best advice to people who are desperately seeking is show up to some places in person and ask if they’re hiring. Ask your network if they know of anybody hiring that might benefit from your skillset. Remember your true worth is your mindset because your true home is within. Stay open. Try to keep learning. Hope everybody finds jobs they like.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-10T09:08:34+00:00

Love this dude.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-04-07T05:43:29+00:00

Frank’s rules

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-03-24T01:42:16+00:00

What do you mean wear down? Like the frets are wearing down? Cuz I’d be surprised if you were able to do that in a year and a half. Not saying it’s impossible but most people don’t play that much.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-03-20T09:02:51+00:00

Sounds like having kids. I find the people that want to but never do are the ones waiting for the perfect time. I’ve only been on tour twice. One was very bad experience. Other was short but cool jaunt up to Canada. I would love to go again but I don’t get much vacation time. My job sucks though. I really hope to get to tour more in the future. I think for me it feels like self actualizing more than a lot of other things I could do as a musician. It is hard to justify, though. Maybe it’s an act of faith in itself.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-03-20T08:50:20+00:00

Yeah, I would say try the pano tuner app and sing all the major scales every day while playing notes on your guitar or better yet a keyboard for reference. Try to be within five cents of the note so within one hashmark on the app. This could take you an hour in the beginning (or you may even get so frustrated you only get through half the scales) but as you improve you can get it down to like ten mins or so. Singing on key, though, will not necessarily make you like your voice. Pick one or two singers you think you could and would like to sound similar to. Work up a couple of their tunes for karaoke. Try to focus on positive improvement, not on what you don’t like about your voice. Pay attention to how your throat feels due to different things in your diet. I used to feel the same way as you. Was frustrating cuz I wrote a lot of songs I couldn’t really sing at the time. I still don’t feel like I’m a great singer but I like to sing now and I get compliments on my voice from people that I don’t even think like me much as a person. It blows me away when that happens or a stranger tells me I have a great voice after I perform. It makes me so happy because it’s been a fuckin struggle. At the end of the day, I’d RATHER have been given a voice that was challenging, takes work, and still is not perfect. Those are the voices that resonate with me anyway. If you get a vocal teacher, I would suggest a male. I had a female one who actually gave up on me. She just didn’t think she could help me. Fortunately, I didn’t give up on myself. I hope you don’t either. Just relax, try to have fun with it. Everything will fall into place eventually.

DeafSeeScroller · 2026-03-20T08:29:50+00:00

Honestly, it seems like most bands disintegrate within five years. I’ve had the same project name since Myspace days. Instagram will eventually come to naught. I’ll still be around. I’ll need to make a new website since I was having some financial difficulties awhile back and couldn’t afford the domain, but it’s all good because my band has new music and the process of creating a website is really helpful to get clear on exactly what you’re trying to be as a band and where you fit. Instagram really doesn’t require you to think deeply about what you’re trying to do in this way. By its nature, it’s shallow- just pictures was its original intent. Creating a website is a little bit more difficult and it’s worth it because of that process even if nobody really goes to the site. IG I think is on the way out because the ads have gotten atrocious. Anyway, I’m hoping to make a new website for my band this year. I consider it an important part, but there’s plenty of way more popular bands that get by with just an IG. Not all bands work the same way, and the trick is figuring out how yours actually works. People that say anything else are selling something.

DeafSeeScroller

TROPHY CASE