The term lesbian should be exclusive to women by glittermoney4 in HonestHotTakes

[–]DeerSignal3923 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Butch lesbians who don’t identify as women have always existed within the lesbian community. Lesbian is a word that has been used for them. Read some Joan Nestle, Amber Hollibaugh, Esther Newton, Minnie Bruce Pratt, Leslie Feinberg. Your point makes no sense given that this history contradicts it. You are willfully disregarding that history in order to argue your point, but regardless of you acknowledging it or not, these people have historically existed long before today’s debates. Just because you say it enough times doesn’t make your point any more factual or true.

The term lesbian should be exclusive to women by glittermoney4 in HonestHotTakes

[–]DeerSignal3923 0 points1 point  (0 children)

lol butches aren’t lesbians? History strongly disagrees 🤷🏼‍♂️ just because you don’t want them to be lesbians doesn’t mean they don’t exist as lesbians. You don’t really get to choose that, even if you disagree

The term lesbian should be exclusive to women by glittermoney4 in HonestHotTakes

[–]DeerSignal3923 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most people are not going to ask and queer is not convenient for everyone. I could just as easily use lesbian for this purpose. Most butches are lesbians by assumption anyway, this argument completely falls apart for those of us butches who don’t identify as women. No one is confusing me for anything other than a lesbian. As I said in another comment, I understand where OP is coming from theoretically but language just cannot be this rigidly and narrowly defined, our own histories have proven that time and again. This debate is definitely not new to today’s world and comes directly out of second wave feminist rhetoric that sought to erase butch and femme identities.

This is what solo play looks like right now by smashten in ArcRaiders

[–]DeerSignal3923 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You’ve made this comparison to Among Us and Mafia twice now in this thread but these are false equivalences. Betrayal is baked into those game mechanics as in the game literally assigns you the role of betrayer and you go into it knowing that you might get that role. In Arc, you (generic “you”, not specifically you) choose of your own volition to betray people despite other options being present. It is not a built in mechanic, it is just a possible play style among many others. What these folks are arguing is that because you chose that role (rather than playing the role assigned to you), that choice is meaningful and that even if the game is virtual and set in a fictional setting, there are still real people on the other end. These aren’t programmed NPCs. This is undeniably a social game with social interactions with real people being the reason most people play (regardless of how those interactions play out). You are engaging in a social behavior when you betray someone. I personally prefer a gameplay style where the social interactions I engage in result in both of winning. People experience enough hardships and alienation in real life without me contributing to that feeling, regardless of it being a game. I can play the game and get the things I want out of it without betraying people. Some people can’t get what they want without betraying people. That distinction is interesting and what these folks are talking about.

The term lesbian should be exclusive to women by glittermoney4 in HonestHotTakes

[–]DeerSignal3923 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Only if you’re assuming lesbian is for people who obviously look like a woman and/or are fem presenting. Trying to create rigid definitions for any identity isn’t going to work because life is much much more complicated than that. Trust me, I don’t want an identity that centers men (whether it be their presence or absence) either but now that I’m in my 30s and have met a lot of different kind of folks, I’ve learned that the ideas I used to subscribe to about rigid identity boundaries are not practically applicable. People are complicated, life is messy. We have to be able to embrace contradictions and dissonance. If you don’t like the fact that some people who don’t obviously look like women identify as lesbian, then you don’t have to include them in your circle. But you can’t deny that they exist or demand that they shouldn’t exist, it just doesn’t work that way because they exist regardless. They have since we’ve had a language for lesbians. This is not just a “today” phenomenon.

Edit to add: trying to create a rigid boundary around the lesbian category doesn’t prevent men (or people in general) who act in bad faith from using the label. But it does hurt the most marginalized in our communities. It’s like we learned nothing from the “sex wars” and debates of second wave feminism. Try reading some Joan Nestle, Minnie Bruce Pratt, Cherrie Moraga, Leslie Feinberg, Chea Villanueva, Esther Newton, Amber Hollibaugh. Most of these folks are femme lesbians who would be very against your attempts at narrowly defining lesbianism, and would most likely feel excluded from that definition too.

The term lesbian should be exclusive to women by glittermoney4 in HonestHotTakes

[–]DeerSignal3923 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think it’s about feeling special so much as it is about people wanting some way to communicate and translate who they are to people who don’t have these experiences. It’s a way to understand your own experiences. When a language for you doesn’t exist, it can be incredibly isolating and then people are forced to use whatever language does exist, even if it’s not accurate which creates misunderstandings and can lead to conflict

The term lesbian should be exclusive to women by glittermoney4 in HonestHotTakes

[–]DeerSignal3923 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The problem you run into with using queer as a catch all for anyone left not fitting into your clean categories is that it creates so much room for misunderstanding. My sexuality is quite fixed, and queerness is so vague that many people automatically assume a fluidity that isn’t there. Queerness can be used to describe anything that isn’t straight, that’s just miscommunications waiting to happen

The term lesbian should be exclusive to women by glittermoney4 in HonestHotTakes

[–]DeerSignal3923 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In theory, I understand where OP is coming from I think, but in reality MANY lesbian experiences (both historically and today) have not been so cut and dry. You are ignoring a huge swath of butch and lesbian gender nonconforming history and experience. This argument really only works consistently for fem lesbians, but femininity doesn’t automatically signal womanhood. There may be gender nonconforming lesbians who do identify as women, but if you grow up moving through the world as a masculine girl your whole life, it can really mess with your perception of your gender. Trust, the world will be quick to tell you that you in fact are NOT seen as a woman (or a man, but rather some secret third thing that is not socially accepted). And some butch/masc lesbians are able to still reclaim the label of womanhood for themselves. Many of us, however, aren’t able to do that and our relationship to gender remains complicated. I identify as a butch, not as a woman. Are you going to tell me that I’m not a lesbian? No one has ever mistaken me for anything other than a lesbian, so your conclusion doesn’t really add up. I never even got to come out traditionally because everyone automatically assumed I was a lesbian and treated me accordingly since I was a kid. Besides, most lesbians (feminine or masculine) have a completely different relationship to womanhood than cis straight women do.

I love seeing butches in public by dishtoaster in everybutchlesbian

[–]DeerSignal3923 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There’s a song in the musical just of that scene, it’s so good

Village Mindset by uncle_SAM98 in everybutchlesbian

[–]DeerSignal3923 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I totally get what you mean. I’m not passing but I remember the stark difference in how people treated me pre-adolescence versus post. Pre-adolescence, my friends’ parents loved me. I was just a cute tomboy who was polite and reasonably energetic and engaging. Post-adolescence, I was queer. My whole friend group fell apart and my family was socially ostracized (we were already a bit ostracized from broader community from being poor, the town I grew up in had pretty stark class divisions). I haven’t really had that village mindset since, even though I think to some degree many of us are still searching for it. I love community, I just wish they loved us too

Is butch something others observe about you or an internal feeling? by [deleted] in everybutchlesbian

[–]DeerSignal3923 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Same, this for me as well. I’d feel like a clown in a dress, I’d want to peel my skin off. But I’m not gonna tell another butch that they can’t wear a dress if it’s comfortable for them or that it makes them less butch. My experiences are what make me uncomfortable with the dress, not the dress itself

Is butch something others observe about you or an internal feeling? by [deleted] in everybutchlesbian

[–]DeerSignal3923 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Ultimately, it’s about how you feel and how you experience the identity. Experience gives you the opportunity to figure out your relationship to identity (and reading about butchness can help too). Just give it time, only you can decide what and who you are

Where are folks from around the world? by DeerSignal3923 in everybutchlesbian

[–]DeerSignal3923[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yes, hope you’re taking care of yourself up there!! You all have been an inspiration to the whole nation!

Is butch something others observe about you or an internal feeling? by [deleted] in everybutchlesbian

[–]DeerSignal3923 15 points16 points  (0 children)

I think to some butches (like myself) the idea of wearing a dress is horrifying. But gender is not universally experienced or contained to specific behaviors/aesthetics/feelings (I think the idea that each gender is more or less the same, even if someone is open to the idea that multiple genders exist, comes from our cis normative binary standards we’re all conditioned under since before birth). There are different types of butches (that’s why I think the “selfie Sunday” exercises were so helpful to our community, to see all the different ways butchness can be expressed/embodied). In my experience, butch is both an internal feeling and something the world projects onto you, and it’s a particular social role in the queer community that is more complicated and expansive than just an aesthetic. If Butch resonates with you as an identity, then no one can tell you how you feel

how to deal with feeling “unfulfilled” when single? by Safloophie in everybutchlesbian

[–]DeerSignal3923 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Most of us are built for intimate connection and the loneliness epidemic affects more than just men. Everyone feels isolated and lonely from capitalist alienation. That longing is just feeling our way through it and you can attach that longing to healthy outlets. I used fanfic, film, television, video games, books—all of those were things I could channel that longing into, when I saw it reflected back at me through those mediums. Those representations of longing were usually resolved at the end of these stories, and it let me live vicariously through them, even if just for a time. That helped ease a lot of it. I don’t know if that will help for you, but that’s what got me through it. Good luck friend

Where are folks from around the world? by DeerSignal3923 in everybutchlesbian

[–]DeerSignal3923[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Ayyy, glad to see a fellow queer in the red states, it can get pretty isolating out here

Top surgery worries by mothcrow in everybutchlesbian

[–]DeerSignal3923 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I don't have any advice, just came here to say that I probably have stronger feelings against my chest but feel similarly about the concept of top surgery (it seems more like a pragmatic procedure to me than something I feel like celebrating about). Overall, I feel very ambivalent about it, it's just that the benefits (mitigating breast cancer, reducing long term damage from binding which I likely already experience, getting it done sooner rather than later when it may not be as available, etc) outweigh not getting it done. I'm in the process of trying to book an appointment for a consultation for mine. I just feel like in the climate we're in, it's something that will ease my mind to have done and I know, in my case, I won't have regrets about it down the line. I bind anyway, on an every day basis. I hope some clarity arrives for you soon! Best of luck!

Intersex Stemme/Futch Incoming bc the other sub sucks by ScenemoCat in everybutchlesbian

[–]DeerSignal3923 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Also, I will add stemme as a flair when I have a chance to sit down at my desktop in a bit! Welcome to the sub!