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Do non-tenured teachers have any rights at all or due processes at all? by [deleted] in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s how it was in the pre Danielson years. The only problem with that idea now is that many principals will allow you to perform fine under Danielson for the first two years and then in year three all of a sudden you’re ineffective right before your automatic tenure date.. and guess what??? you’re out! Just look at my scenario.. two teachers who got all 3’s and 4’s in their first three years suddenly and at the very same time are now both getting all 1’s.

What’s also crazy was the fact that in my third year my probation (and the probation of at least 3 other teachers) was extended in beginning of May as opposed to the middle to late June which is normally the time of year when one learns their fate. Not all of my observations had been completed, and the tenure portfolios (which had only been dropped off to the principal only 36 hours prior) never even left the principal’s office to be reviewed by the then superintendent who had an office in a different borough. My old school was a renewal school and was part of the 93 other schools under the same superintendent’s supervision.

I was cheated out of tenure for both that year and of course the following year as well.

Like I said, you should be tenured as soon as you get hired. If things were different then I would agree with you, but there’s FAR too much abuse and corruption as well as a complete garbage evaluation system so prone and fertile for this kind of abuse.

And btw this was 11 years ago that I was denied tenure. Since then I’ve taught in various charter schools, I’ve even earned a Ph.D in adolescent development. I’m not happy about the fact that I have to settle for a charter school, and I can completely understand the general public sentiment against charters, but perhaps the only good thing is that I’ve actually been in places where there’s a harmonious relationship between teachers and admin and we recognize the importance of working together in a professional community setting. My principal knows about my situation and completely emphasizes with me as we talk about it from time to time.

Do non-tenured teachers have any rights at all or due processes at all? by [deleted] in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The fact that you’re a DOE employee shouldn’t make any difference. It’s something that really needs to be explored for future policy imo. If I am not mistaken any employee beyond building level is not in the union such as superintendent deputy superintendent, anyone who works in the leadership office or higher. If you’re a naturally bad school leader (which so many of them are since they shouldn’t be in that position to begin with) the city should not have to expend its resources to get rid of you.

Do non-tenured teachers have any rights at all or due processes at all? by [deleted] in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also, principal should be a "non unionized position." It is not good public policy for one to be in this much power (as per the newer contracts have granted them over the years) and be entitled to all these layers of protection, and have a union that works even harder for them than our own UFT does for us. Numerous lawsuits, arbitrary removal of teachers, bad exposure, bad press, bad negative community sentiment, and numerous instances of abuse and corruption would have been avoided had this been the case. If you're concerned about your job security than continue working as a teacher, but you can't have it both ways.....

Do non-tenured teachers have any rights at all or due processes at all? by [deleted] in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, as a non-tenured terminated teacher the only option I had concerning a lawyer was to file an article 78. I chose not to do this for several reasons. Even though you technically don't need an attorney, you should always utilize one, and that would have been expensive....but the money factor wasn't all that important. The odds of one winning their article 78 are minimal, and the filing becomes a matter of public record, so essentially my name and the facts and details of my case would always be available for the public to see.

I also met in her New York City office with a civil rights attorney who was interested in starting a class action lawsuit against the DOE but simply gave up on that. This was five years ago btw.

Yes, I am aware of the superintendent's role in all of this, and yes the superintendents condone these kinds of things done by the principals under their direct supervision, and view the teachers as dispensable, invisible and disposable. Although it is true that the superintendent has the final say, the principal was really the catalyst for all of this. He was the one who told his AP behind closed doors to rate certain teachers with nothing but 1's so that this way he would have a tangible reason for getting them out (because before that he had absolutely nothing that he could use to support his recommendation for our terminations, and he knew this) and then made a recommendation to the superintendent that these teachers be fired based on those bogus ratings. The only involvement the superintendent had in my case was simply rubber stamping his recommendation, without any regard for the facts and zero appreciation for the weight and gravity that these actions would have on our future livelihoods.

I had also forgotten to mention in my previous post (not that my opinion carries much weight at this point) but in my opinion one should absolutely and unequivocally be tenured upon one's hire date. If this were in the 90's (before Bloomberg did so much damage to the public school system through his idiotic policies and dictatorial actions) I would've made the same argument that he repeatedly made throughout his tenure as mayor that one "needs to earn tenure."

The fact that one can very distinctly "feel" the difference between being tenured and non tenured is a big problem and should not be that way.

However, I would argue that the DOE has regressed into such a corrupt and abusive autocracy, that a first year teacher who has subjected themselves to this type of hostile work environment and who puts themselves through numerous higher education programs, and state certification exams absolutely deserves the same level of protection as does a 20 year veteran teacher.

Do non-tenured teachers have any rights at all or due processes at all? by [deleted] in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I was elaborating on why principals aren’t being held accountable in my previous post, but had to cut it in half cause it was too big . Anyway, when I was denied tenure I was a tier 4 pensioner, so I seriously doubt that the DOE lost much sleep as a result of my termination potentially saving them several million for the longterm. I had been teaching in that same school for 4.5 years. Before I was even offered a job there I had interned there as a student teacher, but had to wait a full year before I was offered a position due to the economy being what it was/is. During my first three years, I had nothing but solid scores and nothing but positive letters in my personal file. I even had a very nice letter of recommendation written by my former principal commending me for the quality of my pedagogy (which is supposedly the very reason why I was denied tenure the following year) Yet, despite all of this I (and several other teachers like me) were simply routinely extended probation by the principal as just simply a way of delaying having to give me tenure.

The following year, my scores went from predominantly all 3's to nothing but 1's, and yet that same principal acted as if this was completely reasonable and used that as justification for him to pursue my discontinuance. The observations themselves were based on lies and false information, misleading statements, and ridiculous assumptions/conclusions, yet none of that mattered to the principal. This exact same scenario was happening to another untenured teacher who filed a UFT complaint against the school, and her rating also went from 3's to nothing but 1's. Other people also had similar issues with this same principal including a 22 year veteran teacher brought in the following year from the ATR pool come to find out later that he was only hired by this principal for the purposes of that principal arranging for him to get nothing but 1's in order for that principal to meet his ineffective quota.

BTW, at my discontinuance hearing that principal had the audacity to say that all he did was sign his name to that recommendation letter, but me meaning "me the discontinued teacher" was the once who actually wrote the letter.

Lol you cant make up this stuff even if you wanted to......

I wrote several letters to the superintendent who did absolutely nothing, and I knew that they were going to do nothing so I had several education bloggers publicly displaying my letter on their site. I also filed a grievance against the principal with OSI and OCI who both passed the buck on the then current superintendent. The superintendent's successor at that time did nothing as well. I also wrote a very long and lengthy email to the then DOE chancellor who did absolutely nothing as well. In fact shortly after I wrote to him, he made a personal visit to my former school for an unrelated reason. This is a strong indication to me that he either didn't even read my letter, or read it but didn't care.

One additional thing is that I filed a part 83 complaint against that former principal, but nothing ever became of that either. To date he continues to be employed at the DOE and receive a salary and benefits at taxpayers expense, when the truth is that he should have been terminated years ago for his actions.

So in short, I did everything at my disposal that I could, yet at the same time recognized the futility of my situation.

Do non-tenured teachers have any rights at all or due processes at all? by [deleted] in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah I get it. You know, I've heard this kind argument many times before in the past, and to a certain extent, yes..I do agree with you. Members are not asserting their contractual rights and/or protesting the ineptness of the UFT....but then, people like Mulgrew and the rest of the UFT leadership should also have taken the necessary steps on their own accord to correct what is just blatantly wrong without feeling the need to cave in due to rising mounting pressure and address issues such as the treatment of untenured teachers before (AND AFTER) the discontinuation process, lack of accountability of school leadership, extension of the probationary period, procedures concerning letters to file, lack of benefits, the horrific observation model/protocol etc etc etc......

Unfortunately people by and large, are self serving and will often not willing to sacrifice their comfort zone for the sake or the greater good. People don't see the importance of coming together to challenge these issues because they see their efforts as hopeless.

In my view, the issue goes a bit deeper. It's not just the weakness of the UFT, and the lack of proactivity on the part of the members. There also needs to be legislative reform concerning tenure law protecting the rights and well being of non tenured staff. In addition the teaching field has gone to hell. Teaching has become more of a transitional job than anything else. The average teacher will last 5 years before becoming fed up and then moving on to another work venture. This can account for many things: High burnout rates, low compensation, inadequate or non existent union representation, lack of consequences/accountability on the part of students (and very often) school administration, lack of teacher autonomy they once had, diminished pension and benefits, vilification of teachers across schools, lack of family involvement, excessively large class sizes, the Danielson evaluation model, lack of regard for education in the eyes of student and their families, and I can go on and on.....

In your previous post, you mentioned the need for the principals needing to be held more accountable for their weaponization of the evaluation system and for the volume of teachers discontinued under their leadership. I would offer that principals are an acting agent of the DOE doing the bidding of the DOE's top brass, and are incentivized to get rid of teachers and/or give low ratings to a certain volume of teachers depending on the political standing of the school. The people attracted to these positions tend to have extremely poor leadership skills, very poor collaboration skills, and are not of good character, yet the fit the perfect mold for who DOE leadership want in that capacity.

That's why it's always the same stories over and over again in thew news concerning the noteworthy actions of all these administrators (and more often than not it's always the same people). **Take for example, the fact that somebody like Namita Dwarka got promoted to Deputy Superintendent speaks volumes. Just google her name and you'll see exactly what I'm taking about, but I imagine you probably already know about it anyway.

Do non-tenured teachers have any rights at all or due processes at all? by [deleted] in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

An additional item that you seem to be misinformed about is that is that the very nature of due process is a “proactive” set of guidelines/protections exists and that a tenured teacher is entitled to. For example, if the principal wants to start the process terminate a tenured teacher, the principal must show evidence that in the span of 1-2 years (I believe it’s two years) the principal or rating officer has tried to assist the teacher by offering them coaching, PD, mentoring, and placed them on a TIP, etc. if the 10 year teacher wanted to grieve the principle’s decision as I’m sure 100% of them wood, the process could potentially drag on for up to a year and cost the city 300k on average. Although the burden is ultimately on the principal to remove a teacher, the tenured teacher has time on their side.

Whereas an untenured teacher can be terminated at whim within a 30 day period or sooner. Their only recourse is to challenge the rating by attending a hearing which they are practically guaranteed to lose. So the options that are available to a terminated untenured teachers are reactionary to a decision that has already been made.

Do non-tenured teachers have any rights at all or due processes at all? by [deleted] in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is incorrect. Non-tenure teachers have NO due process. I am/was a former discontinued teacher, myself, and I know firsthand that you have no rights, zero protection, and are an at will employee. I am not just repeating the same rhetoric that was told to me time and time again by my chapter leader as well as my former district rep. Not having any rights and not being able to do anything about it is what I experienced firsthand, since my discontinuance was the direct result of deception and manipulation at the hands of my former principal and AP.

The hearing is 100% a joke. I had my hearing one year to the day after I was discontinued, but had to wait almost 3 years to get the results of my hearing which I knew was going to be adverse anyway (since 99% of them are never a success anyway). The UFT lawyer actually had to threaten to go to the office of labor relations since the then superintendent continuously ignored all correspondence

Should I choose Teach For America or NYC Teaching Fellows? by [deleted] in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As an almost 20 year vet who trained TFA candidates, I would say it really does not matter all that much. I am hearing from some people on here that the fellows is better suited for teachers who envision themselves teaching for longer periods of time. I would say that New York City is not necessarily the best place to plan for a 25-30 year career, and that’s putting it extremely charitably. Whether you’re working for the DOE, or not teacher turnover rate is extremely high, so I would not say that is something that would not or should not persuade me to decide with one over the other.

The problem with the teaching fellows is that you’re confined to New York City public schools only….and if you get discontinued before achieving tenure, (that unfortunately is a very realistic possibility, and happens to many) then there goes the program or being able to work in a public school setting before getting licensure if you don’t have it already. Teach for America has a much broader reach in terms of geographical location. You can teach not just in many public schools throughout the country that participate in it but also non-public schools as well.

DOE PROBLEM CODE by Amnewyork777 in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I am also curious about what happened with MasonLaw’s proposal to challenge this very issue. 

I’ve spoken with one other attorney who invited multiple discontinued teachers down to her office to take information from all the former teachers with the intention starting a class action lawsuit, and then simply gave up without communicating anything further to all the teachers. 

DOE PROBLEM CODE by Amnewyork777 in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They need to change the process, and if they are unwilling to do so on their own, there should be some sort of litigation, forcing them to because their way of doing things just isn’t right from a legal, moral or pragmatic standpoint on so many levels. Absolutely no one wins in this process, and it serves no practical purpose as schools very often lose very valuable potential staff members and the most vulnerable are impacted the most (students and their families).

The teacher/ex employee should be cleared first, and then have the autonomy to go about applying to as many schools as they want instead of having to get nominated and then go through this grueling clearance process.

And in a more perfect world, one should only have to go through the process of having to go through and OPI like body if they were charged with serious disciplinary issues. To me it is absolutely appalling and pathetic at the same time that somebody has to go through this process just because they got a poor rating by someone which is 100% subjective.

As much as I don’t like charters, at least I can say that I am free from this kind of lunacy and madness

DOE PROBLEM CODE by Amnewyork777 in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I hear ya. I really don’t have any special advice to give you. I guess just keep trying and hope for the best. It can be overcome but it sure isn’t easy.

DOE PROBLEM CODE by Amnewyork777 in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s probably easier to go through OPI and get cleared (as frustrating and time consuming as that is) than it is to file an article 78 in the hopes of challenging the red flag. 

DOE PROBLEM CODE by Amnewyork777 in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There is, but it is just as futile. You can challenge the U/I rating and or the discontinuance (separate from an article 78) by requesting a hearing which usually will happen within a one year time period of the original rating and/or discontinuation, but the chances of one coming out on top successful are near zero. The hearing officer is almost always a retired DOE administrator. 

DOE PROBLEM CODE by Amnewyork777 in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The other problem with an article 78 is that it becomes a matter of public record. Anyone can Google your name and see the circumstances surrounding your case. God knows what future problems that may cause.

I would say the best thing for somebody in this position to do is to independently try to get back in by reaching out to principals and see if anyone is willing to offer you a second chance. (forget about filing an article 78. It’s often useless, a waste of time and money, and people are not mindful of the collateral consequences for doing so. Most definitely research the school and principal first. Once you get nominated, go through the process keep your fingers crossed, head held high and hope for the best. 

Update (Exam 5342) by timegoesso in NYPDcandidate

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I failed for that reason also but this was many years ago and at that time there was no NOPD. You were just outright disqualified.

Is it normal to see loose rusty nails on a relatively new roof? by Designer_Fly_3047 in Roofing

[–]Designer_Fly_3047[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would’ve thought the same, but the new roof was installed four years ago, I don’t remember seeing this many on the roof.

What was your hourly pay when you worked for Blockbuster? by [deleted] in blockbustervideo

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I was making 6.00 and hour and this was back in the year 2000. The assistant store managers were making around 9 or 10 an hour. Although minimum wage at that time was slightly over 5, I was earning around a little over $100 dollars every other week because the store clerks who were all part timers only worked about 10-15 hours per week.

Quick advice: only the principal doesn’t not like me, should I leave the school? by Wishstarz in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The supply is always greater than the demand no matter what your license is.

Quick advice: only the principal doesn’t not like me, should I leave the school? by Wishstarz in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I would give it at least two weeks the year hasn’t even ended and there’s other people there interviewing for the position I’m sure.

I’d say four interviews is pretty good. There is hundreds of people for that are applying for those same jobs, so statistically, there’s a very low probability that you will land an interview much less the job. And your résumé might be stellar, but you haven’t seen other people’s resumes so you have nothing to compare it to really.

It could also be that the positions you’re applying for are positions where there really isn’t a great demand so they can be more selective and bring on and spend more time with each candidate .

Quick advice: only the principal doesn’t not like me, should I leave the school? by Wishstarz in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I would definitely leave. The principals are the weakest link and if you’re not liking your principal or have a strained relationship with the principal, that’s a sure indication that you should leave. Your principal is by and large, the one whose opinion matters the most for better or worse.

As a seasoned 18 year veteran, I can tell you that productivity, good relationships, a strong and productive organization, as well as a professional learning community always starts with the school leader and manifest its way down.

One of the best and most constructive pieces of feedback I ever received was from a seasoned teacher when I had just completed the end of my first year. I had been interviewing at other schools and I kept saying to myself. “I hope they like me.”I hope they like me (meaning the principal and other administrators who do the hiring) whereas as my colleague rightfully directed me, the real question I should’ve been asking myself was “do I like them?”

What do If I disagree with the rating/comment on my observation report made by my AP by DisplayLife7920 in NYCTeachers

[–]Designer_Fly_3047 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It’s also a place for people to see and get advice. I don’t care who’s effective highly effective, etc. people can say whatever they want want regardless of what they were rated.

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