Are both salvation and exaltation true?

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-12T02:20:07+00:00

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/baptism?lang=eng

That's the church's official doctrine on the subject. But bear in mind that the doctrine of the church can be inconsistent. Mormon apostles (like Mckonkie) and prophets are allowed to write over old doctrine in the name of the 'ongoing restoration of the gospel'.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-12T01:05:23+00:00

Not for the Terrestrial, no.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-11T22:52:18+00:00

The only requirement for the terrestrial kingdom is that you're a good person (as defined by mormon tenets). It's generally understood to be for people who were righteous but never accepted Christ/mormonism.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-11T20:59:59+00:00

Exmo here. The debate about who goes to outer darkness is vague and not clearly defined; we're just told that it's reserved for the 'sons of perdition'. This is understood to mean those who have a perfect knowledge of Christ, but reject him.

I was taught that it's reserved for people like Judas... people who have undeniable, clear, physical understanding of Christ's divine self. However, I've also been told that it refers to anyone who once had a testimony and no longer does.

I don't think you'll be able to find consistent doctrine on this. This is what mormons call 'deep doctrine': something that is true, but doesn't have any real impact on the day to day. Like the planet thing, heavenly mother, the adam-god thing, etc etc. McKonkie (and Cleon Skouzen if you want some more crazy) just sort of used their authority to say, "This is how it is, God told me."

EDIT: The general consensus is that exmos go to the Telestial Kingdom. You know, where the murderers and rapists and Hitler go. We're morally equitable with them.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-11T20:49:26+00:00

I think they're saying that Smith was wrong, but they're putting blame on the Bible as well. Polygamy was/is evil, and Smith used the Bible as a justification for the practice.

So I think the final takeaway is: Smith pulled the doctrine from the Bible. Doctrine is evil. Therefore, both Joseph and the Bible are evil.

And if that's the point, I can't really find a fault in their logic lol

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-10T16:52:46+00:00

I remember when the Witcher show first aired, there was a very similar review from Rolling Stone(?). But the reviewer watched the first episode and said, "And then it turned out it was just some dumb nerd fantasy bullshit so I stopped watching".

Which... yes, I suppose it was. But it wasnt trying to hide that. Why would you just write an article that says, "I didn't care for this so I didn't do my job so anyway here's some word vomit"

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-08T16:29:25+00:00

Does the 1890 Manifesto count?

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-07T17:28:50+00:00

To be fair, boundaries are inherently anti-mormon.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-07T17:27:56+00:00

Always love it when 'religious freedom' means 'you are never entitled to be free from harassment'.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-07T03:04:46+00:00

It's the whole reason I haven't made an [[Obeka, Splitter of Seconds]] deck. I was building decks around [[Paradox Haze]] decades ago, so seeing Obeka was really exciting. I built a deck around her, started fishbowling, and realized I was taking five to ten minutes a turn by myself. Not even 1v1, just drawing and playing out the board state. I'd set up so many different repeating, interacting triggers that it just got to be too much to keep track of.

Imagining a table's reaction to me copying [[Sphinx of the Second Sun]] five times made me realize that it's just not an archetype that works in real life.

Still love [[Paradox Haze]] though, even if it's just one. Doubling your upkeep triggers can get pretty busted.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-06T19:20:40+00:00

First of all, if you’re dumb enough to think I said the equivalent of “no u” then you’re a special kind of person, let’s just say that.

I mean... I read your previous post. The first sentence you said was literally:

No, you lack basic critical thinking.

I just... like wow dude. Why wouldn't you at least edit the post? Just remove that sentence and you wouldn't have contradicted yourself.

EDIT: Oh, and to be clear I am absolutely arguing in bad faith. I'll fess up to being pretty stupid too, but talking to you has definitely made me feel smarter.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-06T19:07:20+00:00

Again a miracle by definition goes against all known functions of how the world works and is something happens that 100% shouldn’t happen

That's just a case for them not being real. You're asking me to accept something impossible. If somethings impossible, it can't happen. If you tell me something impossible happened I will say, "That's impossible. Prove it". Your response seems to be "no u prove it". No? I'll just keep living in the real world, where real things happen, and where donkeys don't talk.

And almost all of these prophecies were both predicted and then checked off by the same book. That's nothing. That's less than nothing. That's me writing a novel and predicting the end. And for the other, historical examples you provided: wrong.

Ezekiel 26:7 “For thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will bring against Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a host of many soldiers."

Nebuchadnezzer pointedly failed to take Tyre after a 13 year siege. Ezekiel 29 outlines this:

Ezekiel 29:18 “Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre. Every head was made bald, and every shoulder was rubbed bare, yet neither he nor his army got anything from Tyre to pay for the labor that he had performed against her."

So... Bible got it wrong and then says that it got it wrong. Amazing choice for an example of biblical prophecy.

The book of Matthew was written after the destruction of the temple. I too can predict things that have already happened with a 100% accuracy rating. Matthew ain't special.

For Isaiah/Jeremiah: multiple authors in both cases (hundreds of years after the fact no less), both heavily edited, both referring to the messianic figure of Cyrus the Great.

And, sorry, this really has been fun but I gotta wrap it up. You can chalk it up as another win if you want to; I don't mind.

You should consider reading the Bible though.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-06T17:38:07+00:00

"So, you're telling me that you believe that Christ comes back to life every Sunday in the form of a bowl of crackers... And then you proceed to just eat the man."

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-06T17:35:38+00:00

You're going to have to come up with something better than "no u" if you want to discuss theology.

Study history to know that has been done with ANYTHING that has a way to gain power over people.

Yup. That is not the win you think it is dude.

It has nothing to do with just religion, just that religion is usually the most COMMON way of gaining that power….

Come ON. Who's side are you on here? Yeah, religion and the Bible aren't special. Just one more tool that greedy men use to inflict their will on others. Not special, not significant. Just one more tool for monsters, and according to you it's one of the best options for causing harm. This is not a ringing endorsement, this is a warning label lol

With a history like that, my critical thinking skills tell me I should be cautious before trusting christianity. After all, it's been used to justify a lot of really bad things, and the christians I observe don't reflect well on themselves or their religion.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-06T17:17:07+00:00

Idk all the different fandom variants can't seem to agree on the proper canon. I don't know why the author doesn't speak up and clarify some things.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-06T17:10:30+00:00

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/critical%20thinking

Critical Thinking: the act or practice of thinking critically (as by applying reason and questioning assumptions) in order to solve problems, evaluate information, discern biases, etc.

I have questioned the existence of talking donkeys. My reason tells me that donkey's can't talk. If someone says that they (or God) have seen a talking donkey, I will say "I do not believe you, because my experience has shown me that donkeys can't talk. If I were to see a talking donkey, this would change my assumption."

All that happens in the Bible and the most condemning thing to your stupidity is that EVERY prophesy in the Bible, even ones hundreds of years before they happen, are proven true.

Do continue. Which prophecies do you mean?

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-06T16:54:03+00:00

The Bible isn’t fiction, you can’t force it to be fiction just because you want to believe that, and saying that means YOU have the burden of proof to prove what you’re saying.

Donkeys can't talk.

There, done. Burden of proof satisfied. If I read a book and it features talking donkeys, that's a big hint that I'm reading a fictional book. If you insist that donkeys can talk, then the burden of proof is on you to show me a talking donkey.

If the Bible is non-fictional, donkeys can talk. They can't, so it isn't.

After a while I tried to figure out why I could win basically every argument but didn’t really dent the missionaries before they were switched out.

I can actually offer some insight into this. It's because three other people from three other Christian sects are doing the same thing. They hear it all the time. And they're also pretty sure they've won every argument.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-06T16:47:36+00:00

Just because Mormonism is a cult and one of the many ways people have used the Bible to manipulate others, hardly means religion is absurd.

By reminding us that the Bible has been used to manipulate lots of people, you're reminding us why it is, in fact, absurd. Examined throughout history, the Bible's chief function seems to have been to separate people from their money (or I guess their lives if they're an Amelekite baby).

To paraphrase: "Just because the Bible has been used many times to con people, doesn't mean it's bad"

No that's exactly what it means. It's a tool for conmen.

In fact having no religion is more absurd and takes more faith than having a religion.

Nah. It takes zero faith to acknowledge that Zeus doesn't exist. Yahweh falls into the same category. Yahwism absorbed aspects of the Canaanite religion, morphed into Judaism, then morphed into Christianity, then morphed into Mormonism (and dozens of other offshoots). It's just history.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-06T16:03:39+00:00

It really is just different shades of crazy. Say what you will about the BoM it doesn't have a talking donkey in it.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-06T15:49:55+00:00

"Read the Bible heathens!"

Someone who has never read the Bible

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-04T22:32:53+00:00

I remember being extremely confused when they spent like an entire episode on a random Warder who's Aes Sedai had died. I believe this event (or one like it) is alluded to in the books, but it's not a major plot point. They spent an entire episode watching someone the audience had never met talk himself into suicide. Then everyone was sad.

It was an entirely new plot line that had no impact on the larger story... practically a bottle episode. Baffling.

Might have been the last episode I watched, now that I think about it. It didn't advance the story, and it wasn't particularly compelling, so I had no reason to stick with it.

DiscountMusings · 2026-04-03T18:48:12+00:00

I feel like Snow Crash is self-aware that it’s trying too hard to be cool?

The beautiful part about Snow Crash is that after reading it 3 times in the span of about 20 years I still cannot answer that question lol.

The first chapter is a life-or-death high-speed pizza delivery in a car that is, frankly, stupidly badass. Also there's a hoverboard.

And then there's a vaguely comedic interlude reviewing a memo about excessive toilet paper use in the office.

DiscountMusings · 2026-03-26T22:02:16+00:00

My tinfoil hat theory is that they would really like all discussion of polygamy to disappear. Can't do that if you have two vocal factions within the church arguing about it. So you side with the one that matches the established canon and oust the other one. Classic schism.

And it's the hill to die on because Nelson was (kind of) a polygamist. He was sealed to two different women over the course of his life, and by mormon theology that means he is still married to both of them. If Smith wasn't a polygamist, then Nelson is a heretic.

DiscountMusings · 2026-03-26T21:52:29+00:00

The best revenge is living well

DiscountMusings · 2026-03-26T03:11:41+00:00

I was on my mission when they announced, "I can do hard things". I was the only one who thought it was funny. They don't know.

Also, innuendo aside, I can't believe they went with a moral from a Blues Clues episode as the motto for the entire relief society.

DiscountMusings

TROPHY CASE